Abegweit
Anarchist trader
The AI tends to ignore the middle line. Following it not only gives a free tech but also valuable trading opportunities.
ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Nationalism is a fantastic tech to snag early. Besides reaping the benefits of a free, medium beaker (3k+) cost tech, you also get access to Nationhood, one of the best warring civics. In addition, you can now research Constitution, then Democracy (with Printing Press). These give you access to Repesentation and the Statue of Liberty, respectively, which are 2 of 4 key components to an SE. Not to mention access Emancipation and the gold bonus to villages and towns from Printing Press. No matter what kind of economy you run, all of those techs will give you a major boost.
That's why Liberalism is important ;D.
flamingzaroc121
Emperor
Im not a monarch player so i dont know how important it is, but if you wanna try something different, ignore Liberalism and trade for it
but again take my advice agrain half grain of salt
but again take my advice a
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 3: 580 BC to 410 AD
I began the round by switching research mid-stream:
I figured I could finish researching Sailing later. Mathematics would open up the UB, which would raise the happiness cap, and give me a shot at another wonder. Besides, I realized that a workboat could explore just as well as a Trireme and was cheaper.
I also began employing the whip as my cities grew in order to hurry the infrastructure along:
With the barbs becoming happy homemakers all of a sudden, I took advantage of the lull in their shenanigans to start expanding my still-too-nascent empire.
A good thing, too, since I also got a little news about my status in terms of civ size, and it wasn't complimentary.
Thank you, barbs. Thanks so very much.
Not much happened until I finally finished researching Mathematics in 80 AD:
I started building a Hamman in the capital right away. It could definitely use the additional happiness, and I wanted to see if I would be lucky enough to snag the Hanging Gardens.
Meanwhile, I continued my expansion:
I think that's the most essential cities, claiming the best resources, now built. Which ones should come next, and where? To help with those decisions, I was researching Iron Working.
In 200 AD, I got some bad news about one of my favourite wonders:
Okay, don't panic, I've played ALCs without the Great Library before. Besides, I had my eye on another wonder:
The game even recommended it to me! Surely I still had a shot at it!
Eh, not so much, it turns out:
Of course, it's not the HG builder who worries me. It's the wonder maniac who's built Stonehenge, the Great Library, the Temple of Artemis, and the Parthenon all in the same city. That has just gotta be an industrious leader. Then there's whoever has a source of stone, built the GW and the 'mids, and is gonna be up to their eyeballs in Great Engineers all game.
Well, at least the Oracle earned me a Great Prophet:
I used him for the Confucian shrine, which helped with research. Just a little.
I also finished researching Iron Working:
Good news: there is iron on the island.
Bad news: I build a workboat and did a little exploring, and I'm truly isolated.
Now I remember why I usually abandon games where I discover I'm isolated: they're kind of boring. I'm willing to persevere with this one, but I've got the sinking feeling that when the other civs show up in their caravels, they're going to be so far ahead in tech that it'll be ridiculous. And couldn't I have gotten one lousy happiness resource on that little island to make settling there worthwhile? Noooooo...
So what now? As I mentioned, I don't usually play isolated starts so I'm beginning to feel out of my depth. It's becoming obvious that winning the Liberalism race is not in the cards.
UN beeline?
I began the round by switching research mid-stream:
I figured I could finish researching Sailing later. Mathematics would open up the UB, which would raise the happiness cap, and give me a shot at another wonder. Besides, I realized that a workboat could explore just as well as a Trireme and was cheaper.
I also began employing the whip as my cities grew in order to hurry the infrastructure along:
With the barbs becoming happy homemakers all of a sudden, I took advantage of the lull in their shenanigans to start expanding my still-too-nascent empire.
A good thing, too, since I also got a little news about my status in terms of civ size, and it wasn't complimentary.
Thank you, barbs. Thanks so very much.
Not much happened until I finally finished researching Mathematics in 80 AD:
I started building a Hamman in the capital right away. It could definitely use the additional happiness, and I wanted to see if I would be lucky enough to snag the Hanging Gardens.
Meanwhile, I continued my expansion:
I think that's the most essential cities, claiming the best resources, now built. Which ones should come next, and where? To help with those decisions, I was researching Iron Working.
In 200 AD, I got some bad news about one of my favourite wonders:
Okay, don't panic, I've played ALCs without the Great Library before. Besides, I had my eye on another wonder:
The game even recommended it to me! Surely I still had a shot at it!
Eh, not so much, it turns out:
Of course, it's not the HG builder who worries me. It's the wonder maniac who's built Stonehenge, the Great Library, the Temple of Artemis, and the Parthenon all in the same city. That has just gotta be an industrious leader. Then there's whoever has a source of stone, built the GW and the 'mids, and is gonna be up to their eyeballs in Great Engineers all game.
Well, at least the Oracle earned me a Great Prophet:
I used him for the Confucian shrine, which helped with research. Just a little.
I also finished researching Iron Working:
Good news: there is iron on the island.
Bad news: I build a workboat and did a little exploring, and I'm truly isolated.
Now I remember why I usually abandon games where I discover I'm isolated: they're kind of boring. I'm willing to persevere with this one, but I've got the sinking feeling that when the other civs show up in their caravels, they're going to be so far ahead in tech that it'll be ridiculous. And couldn't I have gotten one lousy happiness resource on that little island to make settling there worthwhile? Noooooo...
So what now? As I mentioned, I don't usually play isolated starts so I'm beginning to feel out of my depth. It's becoming obvious that winning the Liberalism race is not in the cards.
UN beeline?
Water2Funk
Chieftain
Culture Victory!
OTAKUjbski
TK421
<TONGUEINCHEEK>
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5343409#post5343409
</TONGUEINCHEEK>
In all truth, I just don't know. My wild stabs into the dark of night:
Optics / Astronomy. If isolation is bringing us down, then let's eliminate isolation. Assuming the rest of the world isn't rich in Cows, Rice & Sugar and is missing a few of the techs we have, maybe we can get the resources (and maybe some GPT trade) we need to start competing.
Again ... I don't know. I'd probably lead the game astray, so I look very much forward to what's going to transpire over the next few hundred years.
Then again, there's always <Ctrl>+<w>.
j/k
-- my 2c
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5343409#post5343409
</TONGUEINCHEEK>
In all truth, I just don't know. My wild stabs into the dark of night:
Optics / Astronomy. If isolation is bringing us down, then let's eliminate isolation. Assuming the rest of the world isn't rich in Cows, Rice & Sugar and is missing a few of the techs we have, maybe we can get the resources (and maybe some GPT trade) we need to start competing.
Again ... I don't know. I'd probably lead the game astray, so I look very much forward to what's going to transpire over the next few hundred years.
Then again, there's always <Ctrl>+<w>.
j/k-- my 2c
Melior Traiano
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 220
Just looked over the save. Thoughts:
It's 410 AD & the empire is generating a total of 37 commerce. Obviously, working the cottages that were laid down will help, over time. I stick by my earlier comment that HR/Bureaucracy/CE capital is the way to go given this start & geography. Courthouses would help quite a bit too, probably reduce upkeep by close to one-third when they're all in place.
One other thing regarding commerce: military expenditures account for 6/18 gpt in upkeep costs. Maybe you should consider downsizing your military until your cities grow to support more free units? The worst that the barbs can send at you are axes, which you can easily counter with a chariot or two. I would, however, keep a fogbuster 1E of the iron to make sure the barbs don't pop a city in that area.
The capital could use a couple of scientists, as the temple that's under construction can take its time building with the city being 3 under the happiness cap & you need the extra research.
As far as research, don't mean to
but HR/CS with maximum commerce in the capital seems to be the way to go. Health cap will top out at 14 when the two seafood resources are brought online. The capital can work a maximum of 12 cottages if you go that route, and support 2 scientists. That might not bring you to technological parity with the leading AI, but it'll at least put you in a better position to beeline key techs for trades to bring you closer to parity with the AIs.
About the identity of the AI hogging all the wonders, I suspect that a single civ built all the ancient stone & marble wonders. The reason I say that is because the size 14 city that houses Stonehenge & the 3 marble wonders was founded in 4000 BC while the size 7 city that houses the Pyramids & GW was founded in 2830 BC. If it were two separate civs, then I would have expected the Pyramids & GW to have been built in a capital & not a second city. The fact that the Pyramids & GW were built in a second city leads me to think that there's only one wonder-hogging civ. And I'll bet it's Louis because he's industrious & has a thing for those great building projects.
It's 410 AD & the empire is generating a total of 37 commerce. Obviously, working the cottages that were laid down will help, over time. I stick by my earlier comment that HR/Bureaucracy/CE capital is the way to go given this start & geography. Courthouses would help quite a bit too, probably reduce upkeep by close to one-third when they're all in place.
One other thing regarding commerce: military expenditures account for 6/18 gpt in upkeep costs. Maybe you should consider downsizing your military until your cities grow to support more free units? The worst that the barbs can send at you are axes, which you can easily counter with a chariot or two. I would, however, keep a fogbuster 1E of the iron to make sure the barbs don't pop a city in that area.
The capital could use a couple of scientists, as the temple that's under construction can take its time building with the city being 3 under the happiness cap & you need the extra research.
As far as research, don't mean to
but HR/CS with maximum commerce in the capital seems to be the way to go. Health cap will top out at 14 when the two seafood resources are brought online. The capital can work a maximum of 12 cottages if you go that route, and support 2 scientists. That might not bring you to technological parity with the leading AI, but it'll at least put you in a better position to beeline key techs for trades to bring you closer to parity with the AIs.About the identity of the AI hogging all the wonders, I suspect that a single civ built all the ancient stone & marble wonders. The reason I say that is because the size 14 city that houses Stonehenge & the 3 marble wonders was founded in 4000 BC while the size 7 city that houses the Pyramids & GW was founded in 2830 BC. If it were two separate civs, then I would have expected the Pyramids & GW to have been built in a capital & not a second city. The fact that the Pyramids & GW were built in a second city leads me to think that there's only one wonder-hogging civ. And I'll bet it's Louis because he's industrious & has a thing for those great building projects.
facistal
Civer
It will be tough but if you focus on getting those jungle tiles cleared, and cottages up you will be able to zoom to a late culture win even with a relative tech deficit. The big problem if you go that route will be keeping your power rating above the easy target line.
You are gonna need to found another religion, I think. If christianity is still on the board you can pop it with another profit.
I think going cultural or space are only mildly different now, get to emancipation and free speech, and cottage spam.
You are gonna need to found another religion, I think. If christianity is still on the board you can pop it with another profit.
I think going cultural or space are only mildly different now, get to emancipation and free speech, and cottage spam.
I favor playing it out too. This is a big challenge, and I think there will be a lot to learn watching you play such a tough challenge. I think you should stick to the REX plan and not sidetrack onto the Hanging Gardens. The pop jump will be only a mild benefit and you're going to be happy-limited so the health + is no big deal. Plus, you can easily be the largest civ and long-term that will be a big help.
For now, I'd Rex the clam-cow city, two cities using the other river, and a city for the Iron. Pump Axes from Edrine to bust that Barb city and found a replacement at the mouth of the river and another using the cow and two fish. Then go for city expansion and courthouses. Any more cities will be too much of a research drag.
For now, I'd Rex the clam-cow city, two cities using the other river, and a city for the Iron. Pump Axes from Edrine to bust that Barb city and found a replacement at the mouth of the river and another using the cow and two fish. Then go for city expansion and courthouses. Any more cities will be too much of a research drag.
pigswill
fly (one day)
You've been getting complacent and its about time you had a tougher game. It is potentially winnable, at least one person has posted a victory (space 1899) in the spoiler thread.
I hesitated to unspoil it too...
Anyway, I'm pretty sure you can still get liberalism first. Just stop to research anything else : go for CS!
+ you're going to need hordes of workers (and some settlers).
I agree with the fact that more cities = more research in your situation. Don't forget to spread confucianism.
look at it this way :
each city will give you at least 1 commerce (central tile) and 1 gold for you shrine + another commerce for trade route. That's 3 + any commerce tile or scientist you can assign. + cheap courthouses.
IMHO you should build up your empire asap.
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
hit the barb city before it builds walls (even if you have to temporarily pull military police). Otherwise you might have to get construction or leave it there for a long time, both unsatisfying propositions.
Water2Funk
Chieftain
If you can't win the liberalism race, go for drama and music.
Or get Music with liberalism if you win it.
Either way, build up theaters, caste system artists, and start cult. bombing your 3 best cities.
Just my suggestion
-WhistlingBear
Or get Music with liberalism if you win it.
Either way, build up theaters, caste system artists, and start cult. bombing your 3 best cities.
Just my suggestion
-WhistlingBear
AIs neglect paper and education, so you still have a good change for a liberalism. I recommend a switch to a caste system, but whip lighthouses, granaries, hammams and libraries before change. You can run four scientists in your capital and 2-3 in Bursa. Maybe 3-4 more in fishing village if you decide to found it. SE is your way to go until you reach liberalism.
I think that you can get at least two GS in time. First one in capital is a bit tricky, as Oracle has spoiled your GP pool. But in Bursa (or fishing village) you surely get GS. Lightbulb philo first, then self-research paper and wish for another scientist to lightbulb education. Timing is important, let Bursa finish GS. (I'm in the office so I can't check current GP points in capital.)
Edirne and Ankara could run merchants when needed with Caste system also, so you don't need currency either. In general those two cities should keep building more settlers and workes to expand. Have scientists where you can, cottagespam everything else so cities can pay their maintenance.
Research CS next. You want bureucracy soon, and maybe you want to build some cottages in capital to boost commerce then. You should also consider building Sankore, you have stone, math and lots of forests around capital. Is it worth it though? I don't know about that. You probably want to switch FR as soon as you reach liberalism to maintain good relations, but at least it would give you some GP points. And it keeps it away from AIs who have enough bonuses already.
I think that you can get at least two GS in time. First one in capital is a bit tricky, as Oracle has spoiled your GP pool. But in Bursa (or fishing village) you surely get GS. Lightbulb philo first, then self-research paper and wish for another scientist to lightbulb education. Timing is important, let Bursa finish GS. (I'm in the office so I can't check current GP points in capital.)
Edirne and Ankara could run merchants when needed with Caste system also, so you don't need currency either. In general those two cities should keep building more settlers and workes to expand. Have scientists where you can, cottagespam everything else so cities can pay their maintenance.
Research CS next. You want bureucracy soon, and maybe you want to build some cottages in capital to boost commerce then. You should also consider building Sankore, you have stone, math and lots of forests around capital. Is it worth it though? I don't know about that. You probably want to switch FR as soon as you reach liberalism to maintain good relations, but at least it would give you some GP points. And it keeps it away from AIs who have enough bonuses already.
aelf
Ashen One
Damn. What happened to the SE? You had Writing a little after 1000BC and you were still slow-building a library in the capital at 355BC. Why didn't you whip it much earlier? You didn't mention running scientists. They would've helped you a lot with research. You probably are doing so by now, but you really should have done that since long ago.
If you didn't want to go with an SE (which I think is necessary for Liberalism), you should have gotten started on a CE, but apparently that didn't happen either
I'm sorry, but at this point the game is looking like it will be a boring catch-up session. But to mitigate my harsh comments a little, you can probably still pull it off. You should still try for Liberalism (do not take Astronomy, that's scuicide, and don't research Monarchy on the way - you have Hammams to help you out). If you don't get it, still beeline to Democracy. Make sure you cottage spam. You should be able to catch up and surpass the AI in the late game.
If you didn't want to go with an SE (which I think is necessary for Liberalism), you should have gotten started on a CE, but apparently that didn't happen either
I'm sorry, but at this point the game is looking like it will be a boring catch-up session. But to mitigate my harsh comments a little, you can probably still pull it off. You should still try for Liberalism (do not take Astronomy, that's scuicide, and don't research Monarchy on the way - you have Hammams to help you out). If you don't get it, still beeline to Democracy. Make sure you cottage spam. You should be able to catch up and surpass the AI in the late game.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
You may be isolated and hideously backward, but you've been given some juicy land right on the equator.
Cultural's going to be a long hard slog unless you can pick up a couple more religions, but other victories (UN/Space) are still on the cards. Neither would make for the most exciting game since there's not much reason to expand overseas with either option, but they're both eminently winnable and would illustrate how to clamber up the tech ladder from an isolated start nicely.
Finish sailing (for lighthouses), tech to currency (once you get some more commerce going markets will help your economy more than courthouses will), build LOTS of workers and get the rest of the island settled. Go farm and HR-military police happy to grow your cities large (this also helps with rapid infrastructure whipping), as you beeline democracy. As the cities grow, cottage everywhere, use emancipation for rapid growth and a combination of deep beelining and trading to catch up with the AIs.
PS - I notice your riverside cottages are spreading in the capital. Don't forget to leave one tile farmed so that you can chain irrigation to the rice once CS is in.
Cultural's going to be a long hard slog unless you can pick up a couple more religions, but other victories (UN/Space) are still on the cards. Neither would make for the most exciting game since there's not much reason to expand overseas with either option, but they're both eminently winnable and would illustrate how to clamber up the tech ladder from an isolated start nicely.
Finish sailing (for lighthouses), tech to currency (once you get some more commerce going markets will help your economy more than courthouses will), build LOTS of workers and get the rest of the island settled. Go farm and HR-military police happy to grow your cities large (this also helps with rapid infrastructure whipping), as you beeline democracy. As the cities grow, cottage everywhere, use emancipation for rapid growth and a combination of deep beelining and trading to catch up with the AIs.
PS - I notice your riverside cottages are spreading in the capital. Don't forget to leave one tile farmed so that you can chain irrigation to the rice once CS is in.
cultural is virtually impossible without a great number of religions. UN also seems a bit farfetched without the GL to speed uo things though ofc that only means you cant do it as early... It is still possible to catch up as you have a nice amount of land to settle.
Fetch
When in doubt, reboot.
Sisiutil- you need to man-up here. As. Dr. Elmore Jiggle once said, there are few map problems axemen can't solve. This may be one. I would say the corollary is "...Axemen or caravels". You've got yourself in a jam. No happiness resources and no trading partner. Isn't the idea of the ALC to play to the leader's strength? You're expansive and your UU isn't around the corner. EXPAND to fill up your island, leaving the barb city for XP. Once you do that, you can hop on some galleys and expand some more until your UU's window has passed. This will give you a toehold on the other continent(s) securing your victory. Although, it's OK to lose once in a while too.
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