ALC Game 17 Pre-Game Thread

[sneaky]

I'm very exciting in seeing a SE economy in action and perhaps used to achieve an early space victory. Personally I still have a lot of problems getting the SE to work, but Peter really seems like a good leader to pull it off. I may even start a shadow game myself if I get the time.

 

[carl corey]

So I've started a game with Peter and managed to get four pretty good early cities. The thing is, I didn't reach Construction fast enough as I went for Code of Laws and I'm not done warring so I might make a detour to Cossacks. I think if you do go for peace & space race after Liberalism you really have to get construction early and storm through an opponent or two no matter what the losses. Maybe bring in allies to make sure no one's going to backstab you. Then just do whatever it takes to rebuild your economy and bulb the way to liberalism.

 

[vormuir]

I haven't tried Russia in Warlords yet, but someone pointed out that their UB is like having a Great Library in every city.

Yes, but... normally it comes so late that it's not much use. An extra 6 base research is nice, but when techs cost 5000+ beakers each, it's not that wonderful. And an extra 12 GPP/turn is unlikely to produce an extra GP anywhere outside your GP farm.

ISTM the key to this UB is to get it as early as possible. It is possible to beeline Computers surprisingly early, if you don't let yourself get distracted.

Anyone else try this?


Waldo

 

[Kietharr]

Good, Peter is my favorite of the ruskies. I usually beeline to MT with him, then use those gigantic cities i've been building up to whip out shitloads of cossacks to sweep through my continent. I do a standard early axe rush though to take out the one closest to me.

As far as economy, SE is a foregon conclusion when picking him, his traits are 100% built for it.

 

[futurehermit]

My recommendation to using all Peter has to offer:

1) Play peacefully early, but try to build 6-8 cities if possible. If you get cramped in, then take out one neighbour with an early war (axes or axes/swords or archers/cats or eles/cats).

2) Once you have 6-8 cities then run max scientists (get the GL) to get to liberalism asap (get metalcasting, calendar and compass but NOT machinery to lightbulb liberalism directly). If you have competitors take nationalism. If you don't, research nationalism and gunpowder and take military tradition.

3) Use cossacks to expand your empire to 15-20 cities (15 is sufficient but try not to leave an enemy around to smolder).

4) Cossacks though aren't the super-power they used to be and besides if you go for domination you don't get to see the power of the Russian UB. Instead, my vote would be to transition to full-fledged CE under CE civics with 1 gpfarm and a handful of state-property production centers. Beeline computers immediately following democracy and communism (try to get both wonders there). 2 free scientists across 15 cities is 30*3 beakers*modifiers. That's a boatload of free science

5) Endgame: Once research institutes are online in all your cities (they should be rushbought, you got kremlin didn't you? ) then you should superpower research your way to industrialism (for aluminum) then rocketry (start apollo) then robotics/satellites (start space elevator) and fusion (use GE on space elevator). Then go for the win.

Final point: Expansive is really nice with CE because it lets you get to size 20 to work all those cottages a lot sooner. With hereditary rule early-to-mid game and all the bonuses late game health is your only limitation, but not so much with an expansive leader. So, again, I think that domination would foreclose on this bonus although there is still some synergy with large cities and domination wins of course.

 

[stuge]

If you're going for a cossack rush, try to be the first to music. It's possible to use that GA on nationalism and then take MT with liberalism, if you've got a big enough tech lead.

 

[futurehermit]

Don't you need divine right though to bulb nationalism with the artist? What is the most efficient way to bulb nationalism with an artist?

 

[stuge]

I think you can force nationalism by skipping monotheism, thus ignoring the theology line.

 

[futurehermit]

Mmmm....yummy. I will have to look into that in more detail...

 

[carl corey]

Here's the Great People tech preferences thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

And the Great Artist relevant part:

Literature
Drama
Music
Polytheism
Monarchy
Mass Media
Radio
Mysticism
Monotheism
Divine Right
Alphabet
Meditation
Priesthood
Theology
Nationalism

Assuming it is correct you pretty much have to have all religion related techs to get to Nationalism.

 

[Validator]

Assuming it is correct you pretty much have to have all religion related techs to get to Nationalism.

Unless you skip Masonry. That would block Mono, Theo and DR.

 

[Sisiutil]

Dont' know if you saw my question in the Cyrus thread Sisiutil, so here it is: will you play with BetterAI as a mod? Or is it in your CustomAssets? Or, to ask the question differently, will we have to get BetterAI to open your save files?

I've been playing it as a mod thus far--so I can play the ALC games without it--but I'll put it and the handicap adjustment into CustomAssets so that everyone should be able to load the saves regardless.

Unless you skip Masonry. That would block Mono, Theo and DR.

I don't think skipping Masonry for that long would be a good option, especially if there's stone or marble around. And OR is a very useful civic, even if it's expensive.

I will post the game thread with the start tonight. I'll be sticking with the fractal map; since I'm introducing the BetterAI mod into this game, I don't want to make too many changes at once. Ragnar is coming up soon, so maybe I'll try a snaky continents map for him.

 

[sveusb]

It would seem that Peter's UB, UU, and traits would be maximized by going for a Time victory instead of space or domination.

 

[r_rolo1]

I don't think skipping Masonry for that long would be a good option, especially if there's stone or marble around. And OR is a very useful civic, even if it's expensive.

And: no masonry = no construction = no cats + no phants + no engeniering

 

[Sisiutil]

It would seem that Peter's UB, UU, and traits would be maximized by going for a Time victory instead of space or domination.

I know I've never done a time victory in the ALCs, but that's because it's the one victory condition that doesn't really appeal to me.

Partly it's because the game rewards you, big-time, for finishing early and penalizes you for finishing late. Furthermore, in Civ IV you usually reach a point in the game where, if you're going to win, it's pretty much a fait accomplis--it's just a matter of playing out the last few moves and seeing how soon you can win and how high your score will be. Often those last few turns are not terribly thrilling, and drawing the game out beyond its logical conclusion doesn't exactly grind my turkey, if ya know what I mean. Heck, I've often abandoned off-line games when I've reached that point.

I like the idea of playing the game peacefully but warring when necessary and convenient--not for its own sake or for a domination/conquest win, but with more limited objectives. The late-game, post-Democracy/Communism beeline to Computers recommended by futurehermit is very appealing, followed by the pursuit of a space ship win. Remember that BetterAI means the AI will play for different victory conditions, including cultural. I'm not sure if it's better at going after diplomatic or space race victories, but we'll see. If I carve out a more limited empire for myself, then that, combined with the BetterAI's capabilities, might make for a more interesting end game.

 

[Sisiutil]

And: no masonry = no construction = no cats + no phants + no engeniering

That's similar to the problem I have skipping Machinery, which means delaying most of the medieval units (Crossbowmen, Pikemen, Macemen) for an uncomfortably long period of time. It's the sort of thing you could pull off on a continent where everyone shares the same religion, but if the diplomatic situation is more volatile, which it usually is, it's dangerous.

 

[pigswill]

Skipping machinery shouldn't be a huge deal; you can still have longbows for defence and cats for stack-busting. As soon as you've lightbulbed liberalism you can trade for machinery/optics/eng. You'd be looking at ancient/classic warfare (axes and cats), medieval peace, cossack warfare, peaceful victory.

 

[oyzar]

how is skipping those techs a problem? you are in pure tech mode at that time and getting a ton of beakers worth of your time through lightbulbing when you go that route. Beeing without cats the entire early game might be a problem ofc. However if you either a) can rush without cats, ie metals/horses(would let you ultilize the cavs). or b) can get alot of land to yourself quickly. You guys are all talking about space but peter is one of the very very best turbo diplomatic win leaders... 1400 AD time victory? I am still in favour if the land dictates of axerush -> build up / expand peacfully focusing on generating ALOT of GS, going alpha -> drama(let you LB philosophy for both religion(if needed) and pacifism(which speeds up even more lightbulbing) -> music and then lightbulbing paper edu edu lib nationalism(selfresearching the rest) or something silly and hence allowing you to lgithbulb military tradition, while you swich your cities into build mode you reasearch towards gunpowder allowing cavs(though it should be fairly simple anyways). On most maps the AI is very very rarely agressive in the early game. As long as you don't get into any heavy religion conflics for too long you wont notice missing the Cats/macemen you are so used to. This is suposed to show strength of different leaders etc. Peter might be the very best leader to showcase the power of the cavalery(cossack) beeline. I know this is not your normal strategy(just like you always sacrifice early growth/expansion for exploration), but it might be nice to try something other than what you always do. When you have UU's that doesn't really fit your playstyle you just do what you would have done with those units anyways most of the time(take hannibal and the khan as an example, you could have used the horse archers to more agressive take out cities instead of just pillaging. Most of the super early conquest wins do come from horse archers so they aren't as bad even if they have negative modifiers against cities).

Anyways back on topic i think you should sometimes try out strategies that doesn't fall you naturally(take the Louis game pyramids gambit for example). In This case that means early focus on workers/growth since you get a bonus to producing workers right of the bat and forgoing possibly masonery(with cats(!!)) and hence the religious tech three and also machinery(at least until post liberalism).

 

[patagonia]

Futurehermit's suggestions are exactly how I'd play as Peter (and have done on a number of occasions). It harnesses the power of a lightbulb driven beeline (sadly about to be nerfed), exploits the philosophical trait nicely and gets you a big enough bad enough empire to maximize the benefits of your late UB.

That would almost certainly get you a comfortable space win (I haven't used Better AI recently so I don't know how competitive it can be at this level). An alternative could be to aim for the serious peacemonger option, taking constitution as the free tech from Liberalism and then pressing on with the beeline to computers. Without the distraction of a war, this may give you a shot at a slightly earlier space win, although that will depend on the land and resources available to you around your start location. The major drawback from an ALC perspective is that the Cossack will get neglected, but it's not as if they're a seldom-used unit...

============

A few additional comments on the SE (with better AI, you'll want to brush up your approach from the Cyrus game).

With cheap granaries and HR, you want to focus on growing cities quickly and exploiting caste system. As a philosophical leader running multiple scientists in multiple cities, you can generate GS at a phenomenal rate, which will allow you to bulb philosophy, paper, education (x2) and liberalism directly if you follow futurehermit's advice and avoid machinery until then. By the time your ordinary research has caught up, you should have been able to stockpile additional GS to bulb printing press, chemistry and scientific method. By focusing on this and saving GS for when they'll be most useful rather than using them as soon as they're born, you can get very deep into the tech tree very quickly indeed.

Since bulbing can get you up to constitution early, sinking all those hammers into the pyramids is a bit of a waste and will hurt your early growth and development too much, so unless you have a great location for production and stone available, I wouldn't bother considering them as an option.

 

[patagonia]

Skipping machinery shouldn't be a huge deal; you can still have longbows for defence and cats for stack-busting. As soon as you've lightbulbed liberalism you can trade for machinery/optics/eng.

Agree about skipping machinery being no big deal. If it's worrying you S, you're thinking about this all wrong.

Skipping machinery simply means not trading for it until you've generated 5 great scientists (one for philosophy, one for paper, two for education and one for liberalism). As a philosophical leader running caste system, you'll get those so quickly the problem will be having CS etc self-researched to open up the beeline.

In the meantime, the thousands of beakers you saved by not researching machinery/engineering/optics yourself can be invested in useful techs the AI leaves until later, such as nationalism.

Of course, this assumes that you have 2-3 potential trading partners, but as you'll have been playing peacefully up to this point, it'd take a fairly mean RNG to deprive you of that. It's perfectly possible to get military tradition as the free tech from liberalism and still beat the AI to economics for the free merchant if you're able to trade judiciously (this has the added bonus of netting you stacks of gold for some rapid upgrading before war).