ALC Game 17: Russia/Peter

[Jet]

^^^ Maybe, but he's not Philosophical and not smart enough to burn 5 Great Scientists on a lighbulb plan.

 

[Porphyrius]

Too many and not enough .

Surelly, Sisiutil has got the hang of it, i mean he's had 16 ALCs to practice. bowdown: to the Legend)
Seriously, the various ideas may often be suboptimal but its what makes ALCs so fun and edjucatinal..

It scares me that by 500 BC, we don't have a single Cottage or Specialist running...
At the very least, hook up a fur so Moscow doesn't hit the cap.

Its pretty reasonable if one considers most effort was focused on the now to be abandoned axe rush. Could have done everything quite faster thoough...
And happiness is not an immidiate issue, as we'd rather units after size 5 or so.


Some observations from the save:

1. We seem to be the outcasts on the continent and that surely wont help neither tech trades nor diplomatic relations with Ragnar. He'd rather share his shiny with the other 2(i guess we may have to pry them from his cold fingers. )
   
2. Ragnar is teching like mad, but has only 3 cities and is running out of room for expansion. (He can only build a single city N of capital in his immidiate area). That further boosts his tech rate, but strains his production.
   But, that may change should he seek to expand through OB with a far city.
   
3. Combining the above two points we come to the conclusion we re really high on his hit list dont you think. And hes not excactly a peacefull trader by character.
   
4. Mehmed and Mao are the complete oppsite with 6/8 cities and likely teching just above us and quite behind Ragnar.
   

Thus, although some buildup (libs,mines,scientists) and settling while going for cats is due, cause we are a bit falling behind, we shoudnt go over 5 cities (counting the fur city as a boost rather than liability financialy) and stay tight on the path to construction. And part of the buildup is meant to hasten getting contruction and mass building cats.

Ragnar is likely to turn on as during the medieval years anyhow trying to expand, and quite likely to get CoL before Mehmed/Mao so the hindu block has quite a life expectancy.

I am not convinced that pottery (grans,cottages) should come ahead construction, its not like we have much to make aside libs. It should follow construction along with currency, CoL as we build our cats.

 

[pigswill]

Pottery is not an expensive tech. Build a couple of floodplain cottages and its likely that a pottery detour will actually get construction faster than teching it straight.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

It scares me that by 500 BC, we don't have a single Cottage or Specialist running...
At the very least, hook up a fur so Moscow doesn't hit the cap.

Its pretty reasonable if one considers most effort was focused on the now to be abandoned axe rush. Could have done everything quite faster thoough...
And happiness is not an immidiate issue, as we'd rather units after size 5 or so.

More means more whipping (and in the case of Moscow, bigger whips).

I hate to be so blunt, but no, it's not reasonable. By 500 BC, you should have one of two things (even better if both):

1. A thriving economy.
2. A thriving military.

If you compare against some of the past ALCs, you'll see in nearly every game the truth of that statement.

We have neither right now. In fact, even conquering a Barbarian city would be tough using our current military force.

When I find myself in these situations, I generally "hunker down" and beeline something. The only thing [in immediate reach] that can overcome LBs is lots and lots of cats, so we need to move towards Construction.

As has been mentioned, doing so at our current 10 pace will take excruciatingly long, so we have to do something in the way of Cottages or Specialists.

I'm a fast-growing fan of the FE/SE, and the food we have here is perfect for it. The GS's it produces is just icing on the cake and could even prove to get us back on par for this course.​

I hate sounding like a harbinger, but we're fast approaching the reload point.

EDIT:

Pottery is not an expensive tech. Build a couple of floodplain cottages and its likely that a pottery detour will actually get construction faster than teching it straight.

Unless we're backfilling Pottery for the sake of building Granaries, it's already an extraneous tech. In streamlined situations, you only need Pottery (Cottages) or Writing (Specialists) -- not both -- to develop a viable economy.

We should only backfill Pottery if we intend to rush quick Granaries.

However, I contend that Granaries are really only necessary in low food situations or when heavy whipping is expected.

Because we have high food and likely intend to delay the military buildup, we will not be doing an excessive amount of whipping until after Construction in a great many turns.

Therefore, we can wait to backfill Pottery via tech trading after we have Alphabet.

Furthermore, building Granaries and/or Cottages will only delay our economic buildup that much longer ... chopping/whipping a Library in Moscow to run 2 Scientists is something we can do right now.


-- my 2

 

[Porphyrius]

Perhaps i did not state it clearly enough.
I dont mean the economy is in good shape for 550bc in a monarch game. I mentioned my thoughts on a rather slow expansion on previous posts. I meant when one focuses on an axe rush during the the last round(1300->550bc) economy can be expected to be somewhat out of shape as it is.

I absolutely share your thoughts on running a SE to speed up getting construction. The land, having writing and Peters traits lean themselves well to such a choice. And it will allow flexible choise between and .
And grans may have a synergy with expansive, but they ll be of real use after construction.

I remain generaly optimistic thoough. The diplomatic potential worries me a bit, but i think the game can be brought back to shape nonetheless.

 

[gallego]

I think all the scouts and fogbusting were a waste. Getting bronzeworking straight would have been quicker, with the backup of archery if bronze isn't close by. This isn't raging barbarians.

 

[Validator]

That round certainly didn't go well. Not only was Ragnar's LBs a most unwelcome development but I'm actually more worried about what was discovered in the south. Mehmed has a lot of good quality land, and Mao has already expanded to 8 cities. Ragnar may not be much of a long term threat since he seems to be boxed in, but it's hard to see how Sisiutil will be able to keep up with either of the southerners with just a few mediocre cities. And then to add insult to injury Hinduism spreads to everyone except for Sisiutil.

I think there's a little bit too much second guessing here. Clearly the 3-city axe rush isn't going to work, but I don't think it would have been smart to plan a strategy based on the possibility that Ragnar might take Feudalism from Oracle. A 2-city axe rush might have worked, however the BetterAI whips defenders in cities that are threatened, so that was far from a certain success.

I don't know how likely the cossack beeline is to be successful under these circumstances. Even if Sisiutil could manage to get all the techs needed in a timely fashion I wonder how easy it will be to produce a large enough force of cossacks. The few Russian cities will have modest production, whipping cossacks takes up to 4 pop, and the horse archer->cossack upgrade is rather expensive (335 gold) to expect to be able to mass upgrade.

I suppose a Construction beeline is the best option, but even that may not be successful without some help from outside sources (such as Mehmed founding a religion which causes a war between him and Ragnar).

I don't know that the current situation is hopeless, but I'm not optimistic. The worst part is that the current predicament has less to do with superior performance from the BetterAI and more to do with bad luck with the RNG.

I know that most people are against restarts, but in some cases the luck of the draw gives you a game that is really a difficulty level (or two) above the difficulty you specified. Some people like to play those games out just to see how long they can survive, but for an ALC game I don't think that it really provides a good opportunity to show off a leader's advantages.

If the decision is to continue with the game I guess one decision that needs to me made at this point is what to do with Moscow. I think the plan was to move the capital to Nidaros after capture for the bureaucracy benefit and then use Moscow as a GP farm. But with it now appearing that Nidaros is not going to be in Russian hands for some time should the plan change to cottage spam Moscow? This decision will likely determine how high a priority should be placed on Pottery.

 

[Mesousa]

*timidly* My vote goes to playing nice with everyone and building up infrastructure while beelining for Cossacks. Taking on Ragnar with Cats and Swords would probably cost you dearly, and I don't think you can attack Mehmed and simultaneously build up an economy that allows you to support such a stretched realm without falling too far behind.

 

[Quornix]

I've got to agree with Validator on this one. First post here, but I've now read all of the ALC games. The last time that restart was a real consideration was back at Mehmed, and we saw how that wound up going. You got off to an unfocused start, which is too bad, but would normally be correctable. But you're hemmed in on poor land, and will really have to scramble just to survive. I'd restart, myself, but if you don't, just be glad you didn't check "Aggressive AI". Blake made that setting be a lot more aggressive than just a diplomatic penalty

 

[futurehermit]

I think there's a little bit too much second guessing here. Clearly the 3-city axe rush isn't going to work, but I don't think it would have been smart to plan a strategy based on the possibility that Ragnar might take Feudalism from Oracle.

1) Ragnar had 3 gems in his capital

2) Ragnar had marble in his capital

3) Ragnar's favourite civic is hereditary rule

4) We're talking better AI here

1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = ?

imho it was not rocket science to presume that ragnar would be having longbows early. was it guaranteed? no. but imho building that 3rd city was too time-consuming to be able to risk then going for him with axes.

one of the players earlier in the thread posted a spoiler that he took nidaros with SIX axes!!!

i'd say he would be in better shape than we are in now with our extra city. what did it give us?

certainly NOT nidaros...

 

[dankok8]

I concur with futurehermit.. As far as the future plan, I 100% agree with a Construction beeline to produce cats (10-12 would seem like a good number for the initial attack on Uppsale and Nidaros IMO combined with roughly an equal number of axes - you already have a few of those right?). One thing that I think made me into a decent player from a noob (not saying you are one ) is that I learned that the only way to make up a technological advantage an opponent has is to hit him in the teeth hard and as soon as possible before he pulls away even more.

 

[futurehermit]

there is no problem that a pile of catapults can't solve.

except maybe an expansion pack called beyond the sword

 

[MangleMeElmo]

there is no problem that a pile of catapults can't solve.

except maybe an expansion pack called beyond the sword

Agreed. I really don't understand all the defeatist talk. Swords + Cats = dead longbows. This even works against Protective longbows, you just need more units. I've done it several times before, and Sisiutil can probably do it better in this game.

 

[Tyrael]

CAN I PLEASE ASK WHO CALLED IT
No one takes me seriously

Quiet, old man!

---

Someone else said earlier that focusing is something Sisi is NOT doing, so I think we need to start focusing on a victory condition. A rundown:

1) Domination/Conquest- We haven't declared war, and won't until at least cats. We have 3 meh cities with which to produce units that aren't a threat to our only neighbor. Don't think so.
2) Cultural- This takes religions and developed cottages. We don't know pottery, we have no religion, and it's unlikely we'll found one, either. Seems a bit too late for this one.
3) Space Race- Poor land, horrid tech rate, and look at all the land our neighbors have. We're way behind on this one, but it might be possible to catch up after a few invasions. But I hear a SE can slow down a bit in the late game (not an expert on this), which would make it tough to out-tech the AIs on the other continent. Possible, depending on how the next couple of rounds go.
4) Diplomatic- Looks like the way to go so far. Convert to Hinduism as soon as it spreads to you, take out ragnar, get the economy going, beeline Mass Media, win vote. It'll be tough, but it seems easier than the alternatives given our position.

Ultimately it's Sisi's choice, but it's a choice he needs to make ASAP.

-End of

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Agreed. I really don't understand all the defeatist talk. Swords + Cats = dead longbows. This even works against Protective longbows, you just need more units. I've done it several times before, and Sisiutil can probably do it better in this game.

Having just fought off an enemy army heavy in longbows and War Elephants with classical era technology....there isn't a problem that can't be solved with tons of catapults. I lost a city and nearly lost another, but I managed to reconquer Nottingham and hold onto Coventry by the skin of my teeth by good, old-fashioned attrition. I got big brother Shaka to help me out(ironic, I know) and together we beat that dog Stalin into a pulp. Said pulp is now Shaka's vassal. I think I'll need to re-enact history as soon as I get my dainty, red-headed claws on some redcoats I don't know why, but the RNG gives me the most horrible positions when I play Lizzie....

In this case...build catapults. Build swords(you'll need one or two with cover, ideally). Axes and spears support. This ALC could illustrate a rare lesson: how to handle a technologically-superior opponent....in an offensive war. Screw the pots, screw the slider...isn't that what a SE is about? As long as the units aren't striking and the beakers are coming in, you'll be fine....

 

[futurehermit]

Quiet, old man!

:rofl:

I'm thinking diplo is a very interesting option for this game tbh.

 

[carl corey]

Screw the pots, screw the slider...isn't that what a SE is about? As long as the units aren't striking and the beakers are coming in, you'll be fine....

Hear, hear!

 

[BARBEERIAN]

Agreed. I really don't understand all the defeatist talk. Swords + Cats = dead longbows. This even works against Protective longbows, you just need more units. I've done it several times before, and Sisiutil can probably do it better in this game.

This may be true, but he got very early longbows and he's Financial with 3 gems in his capital and 2 very solid trading partners in China and the Ottomans (who both seem to be teching quite well). At the current tech pace they might very well be almost a full tech generation ahead by the time a sufficient catapult army was raised. IIRC there's still Masonry > Math and Construction for Sisiustil to research at 40% science (currently) which is gonna be pretty slow. You've also gotta bank on having iron within range for the sword component. I think a speedier assault (not massing cats) is the way to go with a little spying to help.

Personally I think the best shot for taking Nidaros is to keep as many troops as possible in a forward city (by the clams, south of the horses). Build axes mostly with CR promo's, but have 1 or 2 with the 'anti-archery' promo. Build a few chariots (or horse archers if you can trade for HBR and want to) and give them retreat promo's. Once you get construction just get enough cats to take down the defenses and deal some collateral the next turn. Building a pile of them will take too long.

Alternatively Pre-Cats:

Get open borders with Ragnar and have a scout/warrior spy on Nidaros, and have a spare worker road to a neutral tile closest to Nidaros. Maybe you'll get lucky and see Ragnar pop a settler and send a few longbow's from Nidaros with it. If you do see that, move your troops to the border and see if you can move in and nab it quickly. There's a nice little run of hills and rivers on the way to Nidaros so he likely won't attack your stack due to the odds.

He very well might have say 4/5 longbow's in Nidaros usually, but send 2 out with the settler giving you a pretty decent shot even with only axes and chariots to attack. 4 units / longbow should be enough to nab it. Throw the retreat chariots at it and hope they do a fair amount of damage then slam 'em with the axes and hope enough survive to defend the city.

 

[Bursk]

Financial with 3 gems in his capital... tough break. If it had been one of the other leaders in Raggy's location I think we'd have been okay, or at least not as boned.

 

[futurehermit]

I think diplomatic is a nice approach for this game. Once we conquer Vikings, we will be able to convert to hinduism, which will overcome the -1 declared on our friend (which will fade eventually, iirc)--especially with Mehmed, who's a bit of a religious nut.

I agree the land is not the best and attacking this late one wonders about the feasibility of domination/conquest.

It's hard to say, if we can get cossacks before Mehmed gets rifles, we could proceed to take him out as well. He has some nice land. Move the capital to Nidaros. In that case, we could be in position for a space race.

It would be nice to see a diplomatic victory (that is dot diplomination) since they are fairly rare tbh.