ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

[madscientist]

My experience with Joao is that if you box him in, he'll come at you unless he has lot's of land south of him to expand. My suggestions

1) Forget the chariot rush. Block Joao off with a city, no open borders. Let thim stew a bit.
2) Build the great Wall. Use the potential great spy for Agustus. Use the Wall to generate GG points when Joao attacks (he will, just keep refusing to give him tribute, he asks alot). Oh, by the way Joao is the AI most likely NOT to go for peace without some significance in return (usually a tech).
3) I would forget Judaism, too close. Focus on COL with the oracle.

 

[JujuLautre]

You have marble [...], and You have GEMS!

reminds me something here

 

[Chrispy]

I agree with uncarved block's advice about avoiding the Great Wall because of the proximity of Rome and Portugal. The GW is a nice wonder, but I don't think it's necessary here. The land grab is a much higher priority.

Which city to settle first is a tough call. Pink does cut off Augustus, but would also be expensive and hard to build in unless you put Moai there. Even then, building would be tough and working through jungle slow. Although not as strategic, settling on the sugar to the SW would get you the corn and the copper while also blocking off your land with a border pop.

I think you settle Yellow (Clam + Marble or Pig + Marble 2 west), then blue. I pick that order because Joao will move faster than Augustus, even though copper is a high priority. The time for a Chariot rush may be gone, but an axe rush is still possible, especially against Joao.

I like EEE BOY's suggestion of settling red on the northern sugar to reduce overlap with the capital and still get both sugars and the fish plus it grabs the horses to allow purple to move north for stone in the long run.

Research: Wheel needs to be the priority to get horses and copper available. After that, go for Poly and see where things stand on Judaism. Then you can decide on Mono and OR vs. Priesthood while hooking up the marble for the Oracle (or even ToA!) I like the Oracle->Metal Casting suggestion from Guardian PL for more happiness and the increased production of forges for the war with Joao.

 

[CivSetä]

Forget early wonders. Found blocking canal city, and then barracks+chariots. Rushing Portugal shouldn't be too hard. And survived chariots make excellent fogbusters.

 

[phurph]

When the time comes, definitely settle on the northern sugar for the +1 food + horse.

If you rush Joao, there's a good chance you'll lose the northern copper site to Auggie (maybe both copper sites).

Since iron will probably show up in that NE blob somewhere (and you definitely don't want to lose that to Auggie!), here's what I'd do:

1) Forgo chariot rush.

2) Settle marble city.

3) Then settle copper-sugar-corn city on the sugar, whip a monument. If done in time, this will seal off the blob from Auggie. When cultural expansion allows, you could put a fort 1E of corn for canal access. This will happen much later, of course, but do you really need a canal city early? Overall, I think this is a nicer city than the canal city (1E of corn).

4) Secure landmass

5) War


Note: Auggie will eventually be able to sneak a Galley in.

All this said, I'd be interested to see a chariot rush, since I'm usually unsuccessfull. Just make sure you find iron soon, or at least secure a copper city.

 

[petey]

With these other civs so close, barbs aren't going to be much of an issue, so the GW won't give a whole lot of benefit. I'd suggest founding the Marble city and then chariot rushing Joao. It'll take a bunch of units and you'll lose most of them, but he's going to be expanding through you in short order anyways, so you may as well fight him on your terms rather than his.

After that, go for some peaceful expansion while teching up to Engineering and go for a Treb rush through Augustus. He'll have Praets by that time, but you'll have Citadels and can soup up the collateral damage on your Catapults and knock them down to something manageable. Augustus isn't much of a backstabber, so if you found Judaism and send a Missionary over, he'll probably leave you alone until you're ready to take him down.

 

[Ankh]

IF Joao capital is on a hill and lets say its defended by two archer, the AI will whip one more for a total of three before the chariots can attack. How many chariots will be needed to be safe?

If its NOT on a hill how many chariots whould be sufficient then? Whould 10 be enough?

EDIT: About the great wall I say skip it. As Petey mentioned barbs aren't going to be much of an issue (your only benefit whould be the great spy) with civs so close. Pour those hammers into chariots/settler instead.

 

[Porphyrius]

There i was going throuh the round ready to nag about delaying Agro and poor early micromanagment and then i was overrun by a tornado of hut poped techs. What the ...
I was pretty sure you'd finish up with Metal Casting or Alphabet. Darn...

...Dotmap...

first settle the canal pink city to block the land, massive chariots rush to finish Jao, peaceful settle 11 cities. medievil war against the Roman

Your suggestion is tempting as a first approach but it may have heafty flaws if thought upon more carefully.
I like your dotmap though except for the pair of S cities which are cramped in. Sisiutil's dotmap looks far too cramped as a whole for me. We are not tucked in and planning to make use of every inch of limited land, we are trying to expand.

Now the canal city is an intresting approach as a blocking city(even though a mere fot can serve as a canal). However making it city no2 will have dire consequences both wise and wise on our expansion. AC will likely try to avoid the jungle anyhow for a while. So i'd set it a goal as city No4 or No5.

A chariot rush is perfectly viable unless:

• target is on a hill
• target is protective AND has found a religion

in which case one needs at least 3 times the defenders.

A rush against Joao however has 2 drawbacks: Leaves you with a single trade partner and forfeits all early wonders. If you want the GW the proper way is to build up Madrid as a powerhouse like Obsolete does in his walkthroughs. And ofcourse perish all thoughts of proper expansion peaceful or military before cats. Less immidiate wonders like Pyramids or SwP are an option though.

If you choose the rush a pure chariot one may do the trick. But i'd suggest attacking early, as few as 7 chars could give you what you want if you catch Joao offguard.
Otherwise use a combined arms approach. Make 2 thirds of your force flank chariots early and settle the copper/gems city the last third to be CRI axes. Or even better swords if researching IW nets you iron.

PS: IW is more important in this start because

1. it lets you settle in the jungle
2. might make war with Joao much easier
3. trading potential looks bleak

So i'd reaserch it myself probably just after wheel.

 

[tempuraki]

Good starting location, I am glad you didn't let me derail you on settle in place This shows the importance of early scouting with the warrior before settling.

barbs can run wild in Emperor, but you will have nothing to worry about with chariots, so I vote no GW. I vote for chariot rush Joao also.

On the heel of the bad idea i suggested for the starting location, I'll offer another one for this round: fog-bust most of the land in NE while rushing Joao, and let the barbs found a city to block off Julius.

Gosh that's a horrible idea. I'm just gonna go back to lurking now

 

[Hackapell]

I have already outlined a path to a Gspy if you want one that's far easier than building the GW.
On the canal city, not only will it be a financial and productive drain, you'll open up a new front. Let me explain.
If you settle the canal city, then the marble city, you are cutting off both enemies, but you're risking a lot becuase if both of their capitals are on the ends of the island, both are going to want to destroy you to get to your unsettled land. Therefore, going to war is a non-starter, because the AI with whom you are at peace will see an opening and attack your blockage city. Therefore, I would let Augustus settle the canal for you, while you focus on Joao. After he's dead, you can turn your EP and attenton to Augustus.

 

[zienth]

Just a couple of random thoughts:
- Don't forget that our UU is a horse unit, so any chariots that survive after a chariot rush can be useful later.

- I agree with others who have suggested that Rome may not expand too quickly to the canal city location because of all the jungle. It will be a lot of work to turn it into a productive city. I think it can wait a little bit (but not too long).

- We already have Joao blocked off by Madrid's borders.

- The blue dot will block off Rome if it can get two border pops, because of the mountain range west of the sugar and north of the copper. At least I think it will, assuming that's a water tile south of the sugar and not land. It's hard to tell with the copper marker in the way.

I'd say to take out Joao relatively early (either chariot rush or swords/cats) and then concentrate on spreading out and building up. Be nice to Augustus while prats are dangerous (hopefully get him to use them on someone else), and then take him out with Conquistadors & promoted trebs.

But what do I know?

Zienth

 

[petey]

But what do I know?

Clearly quite a lot. Those are very good suggestions.

 

[madscientist]

Just a couple of random thoughts:
- Don't forget that our UU is a horse unit, so any chariots that survive after a chariot rush can be useful later.

- I agree with others who have suggested that Rome may not expand too quickly to the canal city location because of all the jungle. It will be a lot of work to turn it into a productive city. I think it can wait a little bit (but not too long).

I'd say to take out Joao relatively early (either chariot rush or swords/cats) and then concentrate on spreading out and building up. Be nice to Augustus while prats are dangerous (hopefully get him to use them on someone else), and then take him out with Conquistadors & promoted trebs.

But what do I know?

Zienth

I think BTS has limits on what chariots can be upgraded to.

 

[Cabledawg]

Theres something we havent thought about here.

1....Jao nor Julius start with Mysticism
2....popping Masonry assures you of Judaism
3....If you get Judaism, you can convert both
4....youll end up with 2 trading partners
5....If you destroy Jao, Rome wont trade anything

Why not wait a lil and see what develops. If it turns out that you dont meet anyone else, then youll need those trading partners till you can meet someone else.

Then, when one of them...Rome or Jao adopts a different religion by founding it, youll know who to war against. And you wont have to worry about having units on your other border.

Youve got plenty of land to settle before Liberalism and the way to get there before the other continent does is through good trading practices. If you eliminate 1 trading partner now...you might as well be isiolated.

Once Writing comes in...send some chariots and scout their lands out...then make a decision...who knows, 1 of them might build the Pyramids for you.

 

[nbcman]

I think BTS has limits on what chariots can be upgraded to.

Chariots can upgrade to Knights in BTS. They can't upgrade to HArchers. I usually upgrade my medic chariot to a knight when I get guilds. Now I assume that they could upgrade all the way to Gunships but I don't ever have chariots still around by the late modern era.

 

[petey]

Youve got plenty of land to settle before Liberalism and the way to get there before the other continent does is through good trading practices. If you eliminate 1 trading partner now...you might as well be isiolated.

One of those trading partners, however, is stuck down in a corner and hemmed in by Sisutil's cities. He's also a nasty little backstabber who'll come against you even if you share a religion. Maybe if they had time to have a few wars together and a couple thousand years of peace, he'd be more docile, but there's not the opportunity for that

Joao's positioning guarantees that he's going to attack. The only question is whether or not we wait for him to come or if we take him down first.

 

[jason77024]

Any thought of combining the red and orange cities by settling on top of the northern sugar tile? Gives you a quicker , cuts (way) down on overlap, and you'll lose very little. Plus you get the fish, horse, and other sugar all in one bundle. Then depending on the situation, you could move the pale yellow more to the south (S of the copper, onto a coastal tile, esp. if you luck out and find seafood down there), and there's still room for another city between the two.

As for getting Sailing early - this map is begging for the Great Lighthouse.

Jason

ps. And, uh, where are you building the Colossus?

 

[Scarredroman]

You were right about the sea resources and settled in place. There's likely to be a fourth civ on your landmass.

Augustus' tech path is going to take him to IW to chop down the jumgle and bring on praetorians. They seem to me to be a more significant threat than the Portuguese whose UU is the carrack off the IW, compass, metal casting, machinery and optics route.

The Wheel to hook up the horses and gold and pigs. Chop for wonders GW, Stonehenge and Oracle and build/whip chariots using the overspill for wonders. If I knew how obsolete got all those wonders built early game without getting overrun by barbarians, I'd recommend that path. After Wheel, I think you can go Poly, Priesthood, Mono, Writing and pottery.

In this take of Izzy, I'd be against being first to discover CoL.

 

[manu-fan]

Let's get this straight Sisutil.

Your considering building the Great Wall BEFORE buidling your first Settler?

Izzy glances over when she realizes that her goals of expansion have been put on hold. It's a look that sends shivers down your spine. "Uh no, m'lady. Of course I'll have city 2 up and running as soon as possible", you manage to gasp as you head out of the room, bowing feebly, to go take care of it.

Cheers.

 

[zienth]

More thought's on Rome expanding across the isthmus...

It's true that Rome will probably head towards Iron Working early because of their UU. But even with early IW, it's still a lot of extra worker turns to develop in the jungle, and we can see that Rome has at least a few sites for non-jungle cities. I can't see them heading for the jungle right away unless they're on a pretty small chunk o' land. Further scouting will tell us more, but it looks like it'll be a few cities before they break out the machetes and head for the jungle.

It looks like we met a Roman unit on our side of the isthmus, back on turn 9, so that was probably his first scouting unit. It's now almost 40 turns later, so Augustus probably has a pretty good idea how much land is available over here, so we don't want to wait too long to get him blocked (plus if we try to block with the blue dot, it will take a while to get that second border pop), but I suspect he'll develop easier land closer to home for the first few cities.

Zienth