ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

[Kev]

Interesting restart, and I look forward to seeing the AI on Emperor. I've been looking to move up as well, and perhaps this will get me going.

While it's always so tempting to grab an early religion, I'm a bit squeamish on doing so at a first crack at Emperor. I find that it's easier to politic without a state religion at first and then join whatever powerful block is best later in the game. I'd figure it would be even more important to monitor relations on higher levels. With that in mind, I'm with others in the mining/BW/Ag/AH sort of tech start (possibly getting masonry sooner). In fact, if I find that a close neighbor founds an early religion I might even bail on founding any religion and concentrate on military (though getting to Theology quick is nice for the civic).

I like the first mention of the Great Wall - be interesting to see it as I've not built it yet with BTS. Plus, Izzy would need walls in cities to build citadels in any case, no? So this might require getting masonry sooner than usual, but why not?

Looking forward to Spain revisited.

 

[madscientist]

Glad you are playing again so we can see the UU/UB in action. Great to move up to emporer, I was planning to move up in my play also so I will be very interested in the game.

My sugegstions

1) You are still Isabella, and she deserves an early religion. To me, I would like to see if getting ane arly religion is still possible on emporer and noone does it better than Isabella. I suggest Polytheism which would put you on the road for monotheism (if you do not found hinduism) and potentially theology for the AP. The AP is still powerful and all it's uses were not explored in the "CHEESE" win. Leverage the production and other diplomacy aspects, just leave a few sucker AIs for the inquisition.
2) TEch order: Poly/Mining/BW then go from there. I have no problem with the order suggested by Bear.
3) Build order I suggest warrior until pop 2 then the worker for the gold mine. You cities whould be fairly large early as you will have happiness from the religion (hopefully) and gold plus you are expansive.
4) I suggest working the floodplains first to grow fast then the lake to hopefully get to polytheism first. Not sure of the timing of this though.


2)

 

[Tyrant Roger]

If your goal is a domination victory, I don't think an early religion is essential. You will need bronze or horses quickly so plan the tech path accordingly.

Settle in place, scout the neighborhood, and plan for an early rush on your nearest neighbor. Let the crusades begin before the middle ages.

 

[Kev]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Winston Hughes]

On first glance that's another very strong starting location, though we'll have to wait and see what the rest of the neighbourhood looks like before we get too excited.

From what we can see it looks like we're in the northwestern corner of an island or continent. If so we could find ourselves either isolated or boxed in early. Knowing which (if either) would be most helpful, so I'd echo VoU and say send the warrior east to the hill, and continue scouting to the east and then south.

With such a good starting location, and this being the first emperor ALC, settling in place does look to be the least risky option (though it might deny us some useful coastal sites in the future).

Personally, I'm not inclined to choose a techpath before I know a bit more about my surroundings, although both Cabledawg and knightowl present what sound to me to be the most likely options.

So, right now, I'd say it's a straightforward choice between Agriculture and Mining. If we are isolated Ag would be best imo, whereas if we're in a crowded area Mining would probably be better. Since being boxed in without copper would present a more immediate danger, I'd say go Mining first while we do a little scouting.

I wouldn't bother with an early (as in first tech) religion here. If we are fully isolated then we'd certainly want to found one before too long, but if we're not (and especially if we're boxed in) then capturing a holycity could be the better option (surely Izzy must have at least one shrine!).

One other thing: Wouldn't it be poetic justice if some AI ended up beating us with a cheesy AP victory?

 

[madscientist]

SA far as where to settle (somehow I forgot to mention that) settling in place looks best but depends on what the warrior finds (go to east hill is my suggestion). Settling in place gives you plenty of forrest to chop, three minable hills, and lot's of farms or cottages to work. Being off the coast you have the potential to turn Madrid into a production powerhouse, especially if you go for some workshops on the grasslands.

Oh yes, not sure if it was mentioned but I bet you have another early resource in the BFC north of where the settler is, either horses/copper/iron.

 

[petey]

I vote for going for Hinduism, even if you're not pursuing a religious strategy. There's not much point having the extra Health from Expansive if you're just going to hit the earlier Happiness cap before it kicks in. It delays the Gold by a few turns, but I think the benefits outweigh that.

Work the lake to help your research while going for Polytheism and build a Warrior first and then build your Worker while teching Mining. I think that barbs come earlier on Emperor, so getting another defender out quicker would be a benefit, too. It looks like all the territory is to the south of you, so move your Warrior that way and leave the hut for the border pop.

 

[Porphyrius]

You do realize that as the second ALC in a row to have a "take 2" part, it sets a precedence. Now we all expect you to play a "take 2" part for all the upcoming ones, i am sure coming up with this or that excuse wont prove to tough.

Seriously, i appreciate your efforts and wish you the best of luck.



The starting position is potentialy very nice (rivers/gold/pigs/hills), however it does suffer from immidiate lack of .
It does look like you start in a snake like continent with coasts NE and SW. So moving anywhere but 1N will likely put sea squares on the BFC. And sea foods seem unlikely given 2 visible resources and 1FP. Besides would you be willing to trade the gold or pigs for a sea food? Moving the warrior wont reaveal much even from the hill 1E, but i'd rather see him heading for further huts and leaving this one to border pop.

Unless something valuable is revealed, i'd say grow to size 2 ASAP/pop borders and work 4 worth of tiles making a worker then to make use of your expansive bonus. Thus, you do sort of have time for agro + either religious techs, but i see no value in them. Going agro/AH is better ensuring and later (via mining) to grow.
Expansion/growth to match AI's production/research bonus early is the biggest pain in the higher levels.

 

[Azander]

Nice, another take on one of my favourite leaders (to play as...). First take showed us just how cheesy the game can be beaten. Let's get some action

I don't think we'll be able to reach hinduism, but go for judaism, you should at least get that. No fun with Izzy unless she has a religion, and starts getting pushy. I think she just got herself a manicure, for the occasion. Let's not waste it

 

[slobberinbear]

I vote for going for Hinduism, even if you're not pursuing a religious strategy. There's not much point having the extra Health from Expansive if you're just going to hit the earlier Happiness cap before it kicks in.

Also, Izzy's cheap temples make happiness and GPP points that much easier. Taking advantage of Spiritual makes some sense ... we're not playing Toku here.

Obviously going religion first and delaying the worker techs has a cost, but if you can pop & spread Hinduism (hopefully without missionaries), you can give yourself a diplomatic, cultural, and economic advantage right out of the gate.

Anyone know if working a 2-commerce tile can beat the AI to Polytheism on Emperor?

 

[uncarved block]

I guess the choice of an early religion or not will depend on the bonuses the AI gets on Emperor compared to Monarch. IIRC, the jump on Vanilla and Warlords was 20% (from 30% to 50%), but that could very well be a false memory. A quick search didn't help, but I figured many of you would know this by heart. OTOH, that first glance doesn't look promising for resources, and being able to convert a neighbor might be worth it.

 

[petey]

Anyone know if working a 2-commerce tile can beat the AI to Polytheism on Emperor?

I'd say there's a better than average chance. When I play a Spiritual leader on Emperor, I get Hinduism about 50% of the time. Working the lake gets the extra science points which will up those odds.

Also, I think that in BTS, a lot of the advantages that the AI had in Vanilla and Warlords have been taken out, although whether or not the enhanced research rate is one of those, I don't know.

Also, it gives the option for Monotheism and helps on the path towards lightbulbing either Theology or Code of Laws, so even if he misses the religion, it's not the end of the world (unless that causes him to restart, in which case it is, actually, the end of that world).

 

[Thyrwyn]

If you are not going for religion, then losing 1-2 turns to finding the right spot to settle shouldn't kill you. I would move the Warrior 1E to see what he sees. I would then move the Settler onto the Floodplain to see what's up. If coast with visible food resource (sea or otherwise), consider settling.

If not, you could either move back to starting tile or move onto the gold hill to see more. If you still see nothing intiguing, move back to the starting tile and settle on turn 3

 

[Winston Hughes]

petey and slobberinbear make some good points on the religion question...

My concern, however, is what would we do if missed out on Hinduism? Go for Judaism?

If so, what would the tech-path look like?

Would Poly--Mining--Agr--BW--AH--Wheel--Masonry--Mono be viable? Or would we risk missing the religion again?

What about Poly--Mining--Agr--Masonry--Mono--AH--BW--Wheel? Does that put our military resources too far back?

I'm inclined to think that the gold gives us a lock on Judaism even if we don't try to grab Hinduism. So what is the benefit of putting back our first worker tech to take that risk? I guess it's that we might get away with leaving Monotheism much later, but wouldn't we want that for OR pretty soon anyway?

 

[Sisiutil]

Thank you all for making what looked like a straightforward starting position much more complicated. I knew I could count on all of you in that regard.

There seem to be two sets of debates going on here, and they are connected.

One debate concerns settling in place versus exploring with the Settler. Granted, there is coast to the NE and the SW, and this being Emperor, we want the best start possible.

I've noticed on BtS fractal maps, however, that seafood is surprisingly rare, especially compared to a Big and Small map where it's all over the place. So in my experience the odds of finding a better start by moving to the coast are not good. I'm also averse to ever settling on top of a flood plain if I can avoid it. Those tiles are just too good and versatile.

The related debate concerns whether to pursue an early religion. As I said, it's connected, since the explorers are definitely in favour of forgoing the pursuit of either Buddhism or Hinduism, while many (though not all) of the settle-in-placers are saying that it's possible.

With gold available for the fat cross, I'd say getting the mine on-line is a priority for the boost to early game research. We saw how powerful that can be in the Peter game. It will also immediately raise the happiness cap in all cities by 1. And frankly, we did the early religion in Take 1.

So my own inclinations are to settle in place and to pursue worker techs. As I said in the opening post, with the help of the gold, I think we have a good chance at snagging Judaism. I also rather like the idea of exploiting the Great Wall, which would make Masonry an early priority.

 

[slobberinbear]

petey and slobberinbear make some good points on the religion question...

My concern, however, is what would we do if missed out on Hinduism? Go for Judaism?

If so, what would the tech-path look like?

Would Poly--Mining--Agr--BW--AH--Wheel--Masonry--Mono be viable? Or would we risk missing the religion again?

What about Poly--Mining--Agr--Masonry--Mono--AH--BW--Wheel? Does that put our military resources too far back?

I'm inclined to think that the gold gives us a lock on Judaism even if we don't try to grab Hinduism. So what is the benefit of putting back our first worker tech to take that risk? I guess it's that we might get away with leaving Monotheism much later, but wouldn't we want that for OR pretty soon anyway?

also rather like the idea of exploiting the Great Wall, which would make Masonry an early priority

If we're going for Judaism and the Great Wall, I'd suggest this tech order:

Agriculture -- Mining -- Bronze Working -- AH -- Masonry --Wheel -- Poly -- Mono

This order lets you build a worker first, and the worker has at least 3 farmable tiles to work plus the gold mine while waiting for BW. Farming first gets the city growth rate up which will help us shortly in using the whip. This order also assumes that you chop/pop rush the Great Wall after building a settler. If the great wall has to be built ASAP, then I'd swap AH and Masonry in the order.

The Wheel could be put off after Monotheism if there is no copper or horses in the BFC.

How I see it:

Cost/Benefit of going for Hinduism:
- Possibility of being beat to tech by AI
- Delay in getting worker techs and hooking up gold
- We did it last time
- We have to work a substandard tile (lake without lighthouse) to try to beat AI to the religion
+ If we get it, religion is "handled"
+ early border pops
+ earlier chance to spread religion to other civs before they get a different religion

Cost/Benefit of going for Judaism:
- Delay of religion may mean neighbors already have a different religion
- You'll be researching Poly & Mono at a time when, if you have a close neighbor, your war instincts will tell you to go for the throat
- Monotheism is more expensive than Polytheism
+ You want Masonry anyway for Great Wall
+ You don't have to gamble as much on missing it, as you'll be working the gold tile
+ You love OR, which Monotheism gives you
+ You envision Izzy, Jewish Warrior-Queen, laying down some Old Testament smackdown

 

[Elrohir]

<-- Monarch Player .... Can anyone give us an idea of what to expect at Emperor?

Emperor isn't so bad. Honestly, in BtS, it's probably as hard as Monarch in Warlords. I moved up because I was crushing the first BtS Monarch games I played. Now, I'll lose sometimes, but it's because I'm a builder and you need military early to keep the AI's off your back. I trust the gang here will make sure Sisiutil's power rating stays high.

One thing I hate about the new map generator is the trend of starting you off on a lake and have the rivers fall 1 tile short of the starting spot. So now you have to build a road to hook up the gold for the +1 and it means later in the game you can't build a Levee.

I'm an Emperor player (Albeit a new one *) and I agree with Orion - BTS Emperor really isn't that bad. I agree that it is roughly on par with Warlords Monarch. (I never played Emperor in Warlords, but I did play Monarch, and that was kind of tough - Warlords seemed to move the levels up about one, as I was dominating on Vanilla CIV Monarch, but I had to drop down to Prince for Warlords) Because the AI uses Espionage so much, it doesn't tech too fast, and while it is better at fighting, in my experience, it isn't nearly as good as even a semi-competent human player. Since Sisiutil is beyond competent, and he has gold, I don't expect he'll have any trouble.


*I'm actually thinking of jumping to Immortal after less than a month on Emperor - Infantry versus Longbows isn't as much fun as it sounds, even if it is the 18th century)

 

[Fierabras]

I also rather like the idea of exploiting the Great Wall, which would make Masonry an early priority.

Personally, I would prefer that to see in the upcoming Gilgamesh game, but it can't hurt to get some more experience dealing with espionage.

 

[Cornhog]

Since you need polytheism to get monotheism, why not go for poly straight out of the gates. Maybe you get it, maybe you don't. If you don't, you're one step closer to mono. If you do, then you can be a hindjew.

Granted, it would take longer to get your worker techs out, but the possibility of having two religions seems worth the risk to me. I don't think the delay will harm you that much - unless you miss out on both religions.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Granted, it would take longer to get your worker techs out, but the possibility of having two religions seems worth the risk to me.

That could work out very nicely, but...

Firstly, do we need two religions so early on? We've got the gold for an early happiness boost, and with one religion would probably have enough to see us through to Monarchy (given a moderate amount of whipping). A pair of monasteries to boost the output from the gold would also be very nice, but will we get around to building them in good time? And a double holy-city could certainly be very powerful, but do we plan on waiting that long to bust out a settler?

Secondly, do we want to deny the AI so many of the early religions? On the one hand, denying religion to the AI can be very effective, especially if a whole continent ends up without a single one between them. On the other hand, there is always the possibility that a happy-trading Buddhist block could form on another continent. If we should turn out to be isolated, the worst case scenario is finding all of the other civs together on one continent, united under a single faith.

Thirdly, delaying the worker techs could be quite damaging if we found ourselves with a neighbour that needed killing, a city site that needed to be secured quickly, or a wonder that needed building asap.

Personally, I'd stick with the conservative option in this case - get the worker techs in place, then go for Judaism. But I haven't played a proper game on Emperor-level BtS yet, so maybe the AI starts slower than I'm used to from Warlords.

If I'm doing the math right, the quality of your current location should be about the same (relative to the other civs) as you see on Monarch.

Spoiler :

Is this one of your in-depth analyses of the XML? Does it mean Emperor starts are less well-endowed (on average) than Monarch starts, but that AI starting spots are equally disadvantaged? And do AI civs get progressively better starts compared human players as you rise up through the difficulty levels? If so what are the differences? And is Noble the 'equal' setting?

Or am I just being foolish here?