ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[Lord Chambers]

Domination requires population and land, though its always the land percentage that is second to occur.
Therefore it follows you should attack the opponents which the highsest land to troop casualties ratio. Conquering some opponents requires more of your troops to die than others, so avoid those ones when ones of less or equivalent with more land exist.

Simple to decide if you think about it, because in this game it appears that no one else is a legitamate threat for Space, Culture, or Domination victory. So who cares who closest to any of those victories when we're going to win by domination so much more quickly?

Go after the low hanging fruit and win. Go after the higher fruit and win a little bit later and with more trouble. I know which answer is more strategic, but also that the ALC isn't solely about featuring that.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I'm torn. The easy targets are, just that, easy targets. However, knocking out Hannibal would, probably, be more fun to read and stop the only potential threat. I think who ever you attack is the right answer

 

[iamnleth]

Use the Great Spy to infiltrate Hannibal. You'll be able to investigate his cities!

1. Locate his commerce-heavy cities. Although you can see them based on cottage size, you can get more specifics using the spy.
2. Steal tech(s).
3. Declare war and target commerce-heavy cities that you found using the spy.
4. If he starts building the Statue of Liberty, avoid it. Hopefully you can capture it.

You don't have to eliminate Hannibal. Just kill his economic lead.

All of your swordsman back home can be upgraded to Grenadiers with the gold you have now. You could use them against Hannibal, unless you're reserving them for quick upgrades/city defense.

Also, note how manly Suryavarman's position looks on the mini-map...

 

[ratrangerm]

Back from visiting family for the holidays, and I see Sis is back in action with the ALC. Yay!

In considering who should be the next target, the things to keep in mind:

* The easy targets... advantage is that the wars shouldn't take long and help Sis get to Domination a bit faster. The drawback, of course, is that Hannibal gets closer to Assembly Line and Infantry.

* Hannibal... takes down the leader and the others have a longer path to AL. Disadvantage, though, is that Hammurabi has Astronomy and there's a chance he could invade one of the other weak civs just to take the land. (I seriously doubt Hammurabi will target Sis, given that he's on good terms with Sis and not good terms with folks like Roosevelt and Suryvarman.)

* Hammurabi... the only guy with Astronomy and it allows Sis to go after Mehmed pretty quickly. Of course, that means Hannibal gets to tech to AL.

I will say that I still think it was a mistake to go after Germany first. America should have been the target to build experience points, then go directly for Hannibal. Sis could then have mopped up Germany after that.

But, since Sis opted to go for Germany as the launching point to take down Hannibal... I think Sis needs to stay the course and take Hannibal down, particularly since Hannibal is the tech leader. The others will take a bit longer to get to AL and the weakest ones will take forever to get there, by which point Sis should have AL himself.

The only worry about Hammurabi is that he may invade one of the weaker civs, meaning Sis will have no choice but to declare war on Hammurabi at some point. But, as I said, I wouldn't worry about Hammurabi targeting Sis.

 

[cabert]

If you go for hannibal, keep the GE around for a quick forbidden palace.

 

[popejubal]

If you go for hannibal, keep the GE around for a quick forbidden palace.

...or Versailles. If you are running slavery, a GE plus a 5 population whip will finish Versailles in one turn. You have a 10 population city on the continent, so you can go this route and leave the Forbidden Palace for another continent.

(If you decide you don't want to run State Property.)

 

[Kietharr]

Hannibal is definately the best target. Roosevelt and Sura aren't going anywhere, the AI sucks at cross continental wars. Kill your biggest rival, after Hannibal it's nearly all mop up. I don't think you even need to kill Hammurabi or Mehmed for domination, you will probably have to attack one of them though.

Oh, use the gspy to infiltrate hannibal, you can use the espionage to steal techs and cause revolts to strip cultural defense so you can take two cities at once, have your main stack with artillery on one and an alternate stack with spys revolting cities and maybe a few collateral suicide cannons to save units. The faster he dies the less you'll need to deal with WW.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^I agree... Han can be a real PITA if you let him to the end ( better teching and decent empire ). The others will be a mop up service if Han is out.

 

[cabert]

^^I agree... Han can be a real PITA if you let him to the end ( better teching and decent empire ). The others will be a mop up service if Han is out.

pros and cons of going vs hannibal now :

PROs:
* you're neighbours. That's enough of a reason most of the time.
* He may backstab you anytime if you go against another AI (due to the fact that you're neighbours)
* he's the biggest threat. In fact he may be the only AI that could win before you do, but I sincerely don't think it's possible.

CONs:
* other targets can be a lot easier and would make you stronger before attacking him
* keeping his cities will force you to go into state property or to put loads of efforts into economics instead of military
* he's your best trading partner
* he may take a few formerly german cities from you, if you don't beware = you need defensive troops that you don't have.

 

[Porphyrius]

Well, the whole production issue looks a lot better with more cities doesn't it.
Which is why expanding via zerks was a priority.


Now for the GSpy thing:
There's a reasonably distant Hannibal's city(His most eastern one) but not quite a "sweet spot". Should net a ~25% cost penalty. Counting in a pait of ~20% bonuses from open borders and the infiltration itself, the cost to steal a tech should be about 65-75% of its beakers. That presumes ofcourse the 50% stationary spy bonus which should be easy to get with a good deal more EP invested via the GSpy.

Should be more than enough for one of the the techs you mention, perhaps even a costly and a cheap one too. Besides we want city visibility to help our war plans dont we, and fund a bit of havoc as we land.

Just make sure a couple of spies get there soon enough though. There's bad luck involved sometimes.



Now for our next victim on the way to domination or conquest.

Hannibal is not the only AI that poses problems. The muslim buddies have enough land and there's always the AP to complicate matters more. Considering our army is more than advanced enough but still kinda lacking in quantities, i would get Hannibal over the muslims. They dont have rifles yet but teching is easier than making troops on this map, and it wont be long before most the descent AI's get rifles.

Besides amphibious grens vs rifles is a great offensive bargain. Much better than infantry vs infantry. And Hannibal only has 5 cities that are worthy (both as opposition and to keep) and a few backwater villages.
Only issue he should have 30 rifles or so consider the AI's tendency and discount ot upgrade and the fact he had limited access to strategic resources early.

The rest of backtech AI's are nothing to worry about. They are both small and backtech. And we plan to get more and more troops right???
However getting them first pushes our economy more if we are ever to deal with Hannibal at even tech terms.

Thus, attack hannibal soon, just as you net your first rifles. Try to maximize the damage done to him, rather than preserving your troops.


PS:
SP is a necesity but i resent the term "force". We are aiming for domination soon rather than later on a limited production map with large maintenance prospect, how could it be more ideal?

Hannibal is not the best trading partner, he was an unfortunate but perhaps needed tech trade partner that should become a great espionage victim and a war casualty.



PS2:
How many GA through GP we ve had?
How long is the next GP due?
Does it makes sense to suggest a GA for the GE use?

 

[JackRules]

NOTE: Looks like you accidently bumped Roosy up to espionage weight +3 instead of Hannibal. I'm guessing that wasn't your intent.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

CONs:
* keeping his cities will force you to go into state property or to put loads of efforts into economics instead of military

That sounds more like a PRO to me ...

I'm a particular fan of the Caste System + State Property synergy in BtS -- especially in production-deprived maps like the one here.

I don't recall seeing CS/SP (ab)used in an ALC yet, and it would make my heart flutter to see it showcased in this new year.

CS-SP sounds like a win-win to me:

• You gain the ability to turn virtually any city into a production powerhouse (great for flatland domination).
• Island conquest becomes considerably cheaper (great on island or continent maps).
• Versailles and the Forbidden Palace become back-burner builds (1500 hammers you can spend on something else).
• Your GE can rush something more vital like IW, the Pentagon or even the SoL.
• Corporations become non-necessary, so your GPeeps can start Golden Ages, rush builds or perform Trade Missions.
• Corporate Executives are unecessary (even more gold and hammers you can spend elsewhere).

-- my 2

 

[Artichoker]

What makes this situation interesting is that you're on a different continent from your enemies (except for those northern German cities). This means that, for the most part, your targets are largely hidden from exposure to Hannibal, or your would-be enemies.

The military victory would then go to the side that carefully prepares for the war. Suppose you planned to attack Hannibal. Naturally, you would make the necessary preparations. However, in order for Hannibal to counterattack, he would need to prepare a naval invasion--which is simply not possible without the proper planning.

Therefore, your strategy should be to build your forces for a coordinated land and naval invasion, while carefully sealing off the ways that Hannibal can mount a counterattack, which should be much easier for you since most of your cities are protected by water.

 

[Gooblah]

Hmm. Quite a dillema.

I'm with the Hannibal crowd. Wiping him off the map would be crucial to cementing your position as the most powerful player on the map. TO even attempt this war, though, you'll have to use some heavy thinking. My strategy?
Coordinate the naval and land based attacks to ensure that his counterattacks are mainly thorns in your side, not life-threatening assaults.

To mount an offense capable of grabbing that much land, you'll have to do some pre-war assaults. I would contemplate sending tons of Privateers to Hannibal and Isabella, taking on Triremes and Galleys for XPs. Can Naval Units get Blitz? If so, promote the Privateers down the Flanking/Navigation Line (Theocracy+Vassalage+Military Instructors+West Point can net tons of XP), then sending them through Combat/Blitz. The Great Spy should infiltrate Carthage, while you start shifting EPs to Saladin; you don't have an EP advantage, but can still see his tech, which says that he can probably view your cities. Rush Communism, Military Tradition, Steel, Railroad, and Combustion. Transports will become invaluable, as will Destroyers...

After blocking intercontinental trade, and investing the Great Spy, begin (or continue) military buildup. Build Longbowmen in the captured cities, and use Galleons to ship the Amphibious Grens back to Scandinavia. Group them with Cannons, leftover Trebuchets, Maces, etc. Use every single unit you have. Build/whip tons and tons of Rifles and Galleons. You're going to need everyone. Also, Isabella will be another target. She's weak, so take her on first, then use her land as a staging point or something. If you beat down his vassal, then there could be an opportunity to make peace for 10 turns or something. Use this extra time to amass your forces, fortify North Germany, and then attack.

 

[Artichoker]

The obvious target for a counterattack by Hannibal is your German cities.
However, if you fortify your troops properly, you will be able to make a massive killing ground there in defense of the territory leading up to your German cities.

However, the real battles of the war will take place in your initial invasion of Hannibal's key cities. Here is where you utilize your naval forces to strike Hannibal at his weakest point.

Your grenadiers get a combat bonus against his riflemen, but the best advantage to have, as always, is numbers.

Halruticum (on the west side) would seem to be a likely 1st target for invasion, because you can then use your ships for both supporting the invasion and protecting your German coast. You would also cut off his capital from the rest of his territory.

 

[Woobi]

Hannibal is the only choice...

 

[Scarredroman]

Hannibal is the only choice...

As Izzy is his vassal, it means fighting her as well.

 

[absimiliard]

Meh, the muslim bloc doesn't impress me. They're no threat.

Furthermore, I continue to believe we must destroy Carthage.

-abs
"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse."

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Eh, I think whoever you attack has some benifets. I think Sisitul has the game pretty much won at this point and, barring any huge mistake, can pick his targets at leasure.

 

[Gooblah]

Aha! Found my book about the Punic Wars. Here's a quote for you, Sisutil:

"DELENDA EST CARTHAGO"~Marcus Porcius Cato
"Carthage must be destroyed"