ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[ranion]

going with theocracy is certainly tempting, in spite of all the diplo penalties. even if you just went with vassalage though, you would have enough starting xp to get those first two promotions on every zerker you built in a city that has a barracks.

as for who you should hammer with them? where do you stand to gain the most? taking out Khmer or America would probably be pretty simple, both are fairly small, and America especially looks like it wouldn't have much of a production line to put up a significant defense over time, these conquests might be a good place to build up some more xp on your zerkers. your other options are the Islamic bloc, and the Confucian bloc, both have a lot to offer you, but would be harder nuts to crack. usually in a situation like this, i look at the graphs, techs and leader board, then I arbitrarily pick a target at random from those who have lots of land for me to take and use to wipe out my other enemies with.

regardless, setting up a couple of cities on those two largish islands near to the Islamic continent will give some decent resources, and a really good spot to launch an attack on the Islamic continent from, whenever you choose to do that (granted, if you kill Hannibal et. al first then the Confucian continent would work in that capacity too..).

to sum up, use the last turn of GA to switch into vassalage and rep, pump out a crapload of 5xp berserkers, pack em all into galleons and then use them to wipe a few people off the map and steal their land.

 

[Validator]

Here's a closer look at Khmer territory:

...

Like I said, a tempting target. Mind you, the only resource he has that I don't is gold. Still, the extras could be handy for trading.

The Khmer capital (no, don't ask me to spell it ) has both Shwedagon Paya and Temple of Artemis. These could be two useful wonders to capture, especially if you find yourself without a religion worth converted to. And it's also the Buddhist holy city, complete with shrine.

There are only 5 cities on this landmass, so you won't face much in the way of colony maintenance costs. It's not too far away, and nobody like Sury.

A very good option for your first target IMO.

Also interesting are those two large islands that, for some reason, are as yet uninhabited except, perhaps, for barbarians. Each one has a couple of handy resources--gems on one, incense on the other. And once again, seafood to support the cities.

Perhaps I should prioritize sending a Settler down to gem island ASAP before either Mehmed or Hammy beat me to it. If barbs are there, I may have to send Berserkers first.

Yup, there are barb cities there. One near the gems and one further south near the copper. They've even built a mine on the gems for you. They should probably be the first target for your berserkers. You'll only need one galleon load along with a galleon of swords just in case a barb archer manages to survive.

There's also a barb city on the incense island, but not near the incense so you'll need a settler to claim those resources.

You also might want to consider sending a settler to claim the two silks and copper SW of Samsun. That'll give you some more resources to trade.

But look how Hannibal managed to expand and cut off poor Bismarck! I know you can't see its full name, but is that city north of Hippo a former barb city? If so, that would certainly explain how this came about.

Kerkouane is the fifth Carthaginian city, so Hannibal built it. And then culture bombed it.

And yes, Hannibal probably has the best land mass on the map. I can already see a couple of candidates for my beloved riverside ironworks city. I still have that iron deal going with him. I know, I know... but cripes, he offered me all his GPT and surplus resources for it when I revised it! Dang.

One thing to keep in mind when you start long term planning is the cost of colonial maintenance. There are 10 cities on that landmass (Carthaginian + German) with room for 1 more in the jungle. So it will have significant colonial costs if you keep them all. One thing that may be possible is to get Bismark to capitulate and then give him the cities that you don't want. That should keep the maintenance costs in check.

Of course this game may end long before Ironworks becomes an issue.

As to the iron resource trade, it isn't as big a deal at this point because Hannibal has expanded off his mainland and claimed sources of copper and horses, so he's not nearly defenseless even without the iron. The weird thing is that there is an iron source in Izzy's lands, and you would think that Hannibal would have demanded it in tribute instead of trading a lot for your spare iron.

Though I am waiting to see if I get a GS out of Nidaros in a few turns before researching Education. Hence my pursuit of Guilds. But if anyone has any better research targets, I'm all ears.

One GS is only going to bulb a little more than half of Education, so you can certainly start it before the great person is produced. Engineering is also a possibility since nobody seems to want to trade it at the moment. If you do research Guilds you may want to keep it to yourself. It's a pre-req for Banking, and once the AIs start getting that they'll likely switch to Mercantilism and eliminate your lucrative foreign trade routes.

First in GNP and production--amazing, frankly. I can't remember the last time I had that this early in a game. Looks like the military could use a little beefing up, however.

You've been # 1 in both categories for the last couple of updates, but these numbers are a bit skewed because of the Golden Age.


One last thing. You might want to hurry the Trading Post in fur city before switching out of US. That city has little production and it's not going anywhere until it can get 2F from its water tiles.

 

[KMadCandy]

With all the elephants I'm trading away, I may need to research Engineering soon and send along some Pikemen if and when I attack anybody.

all three of the people you're trading ivory to have no horses. i'm a big wuss, i don't trade ivory to somebody who's stuck with no mounted troops at all without 'em.

I like the idea of Chemistry from Liberalism for extra-early Privateers. Sounds like fun. Since I won't be warring against everybody at the same time, those units would give me a chance to cripple my rivals, especially with the importance of seafood on this map to many cities and civs.

not that i'm obsessed with privateers or anything , but check out exactly where hannibal's strategic resources are. he has no iron and no elephants. his only source of horse and copper will be his southern islands, once Abdera gets a border pop, thru the coastal connection. but because that connection is over the water, that means you can cut off his entire mainland from all of his strategic resources with just 2 or 3 privateers. because those islands are so small, you can blockade Abdera from all directions with just one. i don't know if you'd need 1 or 2 for the other island right now, 3 if he makes another city by Tecape for the iron (which i bet he will). even learning astronomy to connect his cities over the ocean wouldn't help him! you wouldn't have to blockade his "real" cities, just the tiny ones, since they're the sources. once he knows astro and chemistry, well, that's where the plan falls apart, or if somebody trades stuff to him. but that's awesome map luck right there yarrrrrrrr!

but isabella does have iron. if you quit supplying him he might just demand it from his vassal, does the AI demand single resources from colonies like that?

But look how Hannibal managed to expand and cut off poor Bismarck! I know you can't see its full name, but is that city north of Hippo a former barb city? If so, that would certainly explain how this came about.

no, it's hannibal's 5th city. but it's the #1 city in the world, so i puzzled over how it got there with NO WONDERS at all and figured out that he culture bombed it before you played this round, silly goose. and that bismarck must be trapped in a corner, he had 3 and hannibal had 8? i think, even after splitting off a colony. there's lots you can figure out from looking at the trade screen, including guessing at the size of someone's empire before you have paper . i guess i should have made post #503 shorter so you'd read it *giggle*.

the most important thing in that post still applies. keep in mind the AP; as soon as you capture any islamic city, you'll be subject to "stop the fighting" votes, and to "assign X city to its rightful owner" votes, which can be yukky.

 

[Melon Head]

Nice round, Sisiutil. Looks like things are going well. I'd weigh the vasselage/beauracracy choice carefully. Vasselage will make for CR2, C1, Drill1, Amphibious Berserkers, later rifles/grens, while Buearacracy will let you make the most out o your ridiculous capitol. However, since i think you're running specialists, bur doesn't benefit you quite as much as it would otherwise. Go for vasselage (though run the numbers first; might not be worth it). Also, Privateers are amazing. I was playing a game as Gandhi the other day; built between 30 and 40 privateers over the course of 1300-1700 or so. When I began, all of my opponents had optics. When I ended and upgraded multiple C4 or Drill 4 (some had C3, blitz, and D4; I gave one of those a GG) privateers to destroyers, my opponents still hadn't snagged chemistry, and galleons were uncommon. For some reason, the AI prefers sending Caravels after Privateers to Galleons. This makes dill promotions really good for privateers. It got to the point (Drydock + GMI) where I could build a C1, Medic 1 privateer and have it blockade, defended by a Drill 2 privateer, which ran around killing workboats and/or caravels, but ending its turn on the medic. That let me keep their navies under wraps while also blockading and preventing them from wearing down privateers with mass caravels. The only downside is that blitz comes with the combat line, not drill...but that's okay.

Overall I crippled my opponents for hundreds of years, got 5+ GGs, and had full naval superiority of a water-based map. My biggest rival was Cathy, who I didn't blockade. I then conquered her and installed Washington to command her territories. I haven't finished, because having completed the tech tree while people are still thinking about flight just isn't fair.

Admittedly, Privateers are a large hammer investment. They take a lot to get started (you need to keep them in stacks of 2 or 3) and more to blockade all your opponents. However, you can cripple one or two civs relatively easily, and build privateers for the weaker civs as time goes on. This is especially handy because it evens the AI playing field. You'll be trimming back Hannibal and Bismark, and by the time you have privateers ready for the other AIs, they'll have caught up to Hannibal and Bismark in tech, but certainly not to you.

It has two other advantages/often overlooked features. First, the privateers pay both for themselves and for a larger military. I often only got 2 or 3 gold per turn per blockader, but that pays for the maintenance of that privateer and the privateer in the stack (well, maybe not quite; but certainly close. You have 1 gpt per unit, plus 1 gpt per unit outside your territory). Getting more gpt from them will be common with the intercontinental nature of the map, plus if you can spread econ and avoid banking, that'll help. Second, the privateers will preserve uninhabited islands for your settling. You've got a huge head start on that, but it'll keep it longer. By killing off the AI fleets, it'll make it more difficult for them to settle abroad.

That said, it will drive a massive AI naval buildup. Drill privateers will serve well to keep that under check, and as long as you pull out of their territory as they begin to get frigates and ships of the line, you'll be alright. Promote the privateers to destroyers later and you'll be untouchable.

I agree with KMad. Privateers rock.

 

[Munch]

Wow, America is a real dive.

Good job leaving one more Golden Age turn for civic changing!

I'm still interested in what happened between turns 211 and 212 which had a dramatic impact on your science and economy, but now I also want to check out this small island block (picture attached). Can someone with Civ installed tell if it's worth colonising?

Finally:

Yes, Hammy has some awfully nice land and resources, which I suspect has a lot to do with why he's in the top three. Also interesting are those two large islands that, for some reason, are as yet uninhabited except, perhaps, for barbarians. Each one has a couple of handy resources--gems on one, incense on the other. And once again, seafood to support the cities.

You can see in the picture that there is indeed a barbarian settlement on the eastern island, and I dare say two of them! You can tell because one of the gems has a black (barb) rather than a white (unclaimed) bubble; similarly for the copper.

 

[DrJambo]

Sisiutil,

Trade routes work the wrong way round on the demographics screen! Being in last place means you actually have the best ratio of exports (income) to imports (giving income to others). This is something that I've been asking Bhruic to fix for a while in his unofficial patch.

 

[Boodler]

Round 4: 25 AD to 730 AD (47 turns), Part 1
...
Yes, I am trying to be wary of too many civics changes this game. Fortunately the Viking empire isn't too big at this point so switching back and forth to get the Drill bonus only cost me two turns.
...

I had the idea that it is only the number of civic changes you do that influences the length of anarchy. One and two changes will give 1 turn and three changes will result in two turns of anarchy. Prbably 5 changes will mean 3 turns, and of course it will follow the changes in game speed but it is still only the # of changes, not the size of empire.
Have I misunderstood the above quoted sentence or am I missing something here ?

 

[KMadCandy]

edit: i had quoted a post about the demographics screen but it's apparently wrong (the post i mean, nvm the screen) so i'm deleting that.

looking at the Info screen on F4 shows you how much you're getting in trade routes from each civ. right now you're not getting any commerce from isabella or sury, even tho you have OB, because other cities are better for you so they're automagically picked. sury's your gold supplier so you want to keep that going for happiness i bet, and izzy's not making enemies with anyone over religion for once , but it's something to keep in mind if and when people come around demanding that you stop trades. i sometimes pop into F4 and see just how much losing OBs would cost me in trade routes before i make up my mind, if i want to be more penny-pinching about who i please than i am worried about making nicey-nice (a rare situation for me, granted).

I had the idea that it is only the number of civic changes you do that influences the length of anarchy. One and two changes will give 1 turn and three changes will result in two turns of anarchy. Prbably 5 changes will mean 3 turns, and of course it will follow the changes in game speed but it is still only the # of changes, not the size of empire.
Have I misunderstood the above quoted sentence or am I missing something here ?

the number of swaps definitely does change it, depending on game speed as you mentioned. i think on quick you can do 5 changes all in one turn sometimes. but i do think that the number of turns is affected by the size of your empire too. it also feels to me like they take longer in the later game also, but if it is related to size, that could be just a side effect of my empire being bigger at that stage of the game? i'd really like to know for sure.

but now I also want to check out this small island block (picture attached). Can someone with Civ installed tell if it's worth colonising?

all it has going for it is one set of crabs. pic in the box:

Spoiler :

 

[Gliese 581]

Sisiutil,

Trade routes work the wrong way round on the demographics screen! Being in last place means you actually have the best ratio of exports (income) to imports (giving income to others). This is something that I've been asking Bhruic to fix for a while in his unofficial patch.

I've been puzzling over this feature as well.. good to know it's a bug.

 

[Scarredroman]

'Chinook island has nothing to recommend it except sheep.' Aside from a dozen forests, 15 river tiles, at least one flood plain and half a dozen lovely hills (okay so one has the sheep), if you settled where the warrior now is.

The one-tile island between Khmer and Carthage has two fish and would be an ideal place for the Moai Statues. Make a good jumping off point for attacking Khmer and Carthage.

You could get a galleon though to claim 2 silver and fish beneath Roosevelt's little empire and send a work boat scurrying after. The maintenance and distance costs might be too great. Creating a colony might be just the ticket. Such a city would not be in my next dozen settler targets. Gem city amd experience for swordsmen and money to promote them.

In 16 turns I was expecting Hammurabi to have finished Divine Right. Perhaps, as a result of all that maptrading and prerequisites for astronomy, all the ai civs are going for astronomy?

Settling the islands to the east would bring conflict with Mehmed, from the 1300s onwards. The two small islands with fish cold be secured - as they're ocean, with a settler in the only empty green tile on the larger of the two small islands with two pops. It would make another good staging area for an attack on Sury. At least you haven't traded elephants with him.

Galleon that takes settler to one-tile island can carry a spy instead of a worker. Galleon goes on o drop off he spy and returnsto the island to pick up three berserkerswith CR2 that another galleon has dropped off. A single boatload of berserkers mihght take a city off Sury. 5 galleons may take all his main cities in one turn.I'd get the swos of fto take the barb cities, whilst building a force to take Sury. The troop nmbers are low in this game and he may have only a couple of units in his cities.

Your science does not seem to me to need the boost from representation. Settling great scientists in their academies in cities seems a good use of them and you have observatories so early.You've got a whole load of money coming in and US makes the best use of that.

I'd seriously consider going for pacifism, because you don't have that many troops right now, to accelerate the production of your next couple of Great People. You may have the GE (for the Taj) and GM appear (for sheds load more money). The drawback with that is that you'd need to be Christian and spread it your GP cities.

 

[cabert]

I'm still interested in what happened between turns 211 and 212 which had a dramatic impact on your science and economy

Isn't that the 2 lightbulbs towards astronomy (leading to new intercontinental trade routes) ?

 

[Boodler]

Isn't that the 2 lightbulbs towards astronomy (leading to new intercontinental trade routes) ?

Astronomy was discovered ~5 turns after the sudden increase.
Judging from the screenshots, some harbors have been completed but I doubt that is the only reason for the science jump.

 

[Chrispy]

I can see the argument for either Sury or Roosevelt, but I think Killroyan's rationale for Sury makes the most sense, especially the part about him being unknown. Can't say I think much of his setup of the cities, but his capital has to stay. Forbidden Palace and/or Wall Street, perhaps? Should Angkor Thom be razed and moved 1NW to get both gold mines? Either way, it's another Wall Street/FP nominee.

The gem island looks tempting, but it is halfway around the world and will further slow the first war. I think the best setup is to send just some existing swordsmen to the gem island with the first Galleon while building and upgrading to Berserkers for the next Galleons.

 

[KMadCandy]

'Chinook island has nothing to recommend it except sheep.' Aside from a dozen forests, 15 river tiles, at least one flood plain and half a dozen lovely hills (okay so one has the sheep), if you settled where the warrior now is.

do we think this game will go long enough that we'd tech to bio? we know we want chem, bio requires PP and SciM after that and is a zillion beakers itself. if i'm reading GPs right (i'm probably not), we can't convince a GS to help us with it directly, only PP or SciM but not both. anyway, if we do get bio, we could put a real pretty zillions-of-free-specialists national park city on chinook island. barb clam-stone-incense island and gem island could give lots of specs too, but with jungle instead of forest it's a big fat pain to build if you're not rich. north isabella-ville has some choice spots too. haithabu at home would give 5, but only if you let its forests live that long. north isabella-ville has some prime spots too.

does it show that my games usually do go that long, i beeline for bio and medicine for sushi, and i like to pick an NPark spot early? sometimes by turn 75 .

 

[popejubal]

You may pick up a Great Engineer at some point. You could settle him in the HE city or in your Capital and either choice would work well. I think that a much better choice would be to save him to rush Versailles.

Since maintenance is capped at 2x distance from Palace cost, Versailles should keep one continent nice and cheap for Colony maintenance. Put up Forbidden Palace somewhere else and you could have two different continents half way around the world with no significant upkeep costs.

Versailles costs more hammers than a Great Engineer can provide, but if you rush with the Engineer, then a whip at size 10 will finish the job on the same turn. If the city is below size 10, then it won't take a tremendous number of turns to finish. Without the Great Enginner, you could be looking at hundreds of turns for construction even in a city with halfway decent production.


...obviously, this depends on whether you're going to let the game continue to the point where colony maintenance will matter or just rampage your way through your opponents like a hot Viking axe through Mesopotamian goat cheese on your way to a conquest victory.

One final thought: Catapults and Trebs can't lower city defences from a boat while Frigates can and Frigates also ignore walls/castles.
Chemistry 4 teh win!

 

[oyzar]

I've been puzzling over this feature as well.. good to know it's a bug.

How is it a bug? You get money from exporting stuff... other get money from you importing stuff. He have really nice traderoutes because he export alot. The imports/exports rankings might be backwards though, but then again who cares for the other stuff like life expectancy and approval rate either? :S

 

[Squarg]

This is a very puzzling game indeed, I just think its hilarious that not only are the vikings the tech leaders but that bismark has 3 cities and is in second, as well as the fact that Izzy has no religion in 900

 

[Winston Hughes]

You have only three serious rivals in this game: Hannibal, Hammurabi and Mehmed. If you conquer/vassalise them, then the game is all but won. Sure, the southern pair would be easier, and their lands are nice enough to be worth absorbing. But why not just go for the jugular?

I agree with the consensus to aim for Chemistry from Liberalism, and I'd spend that period building up the military in preperation for an assault on Hannibal. Once the sea-dominating units are in place, you can attack with impunity, striking at weak points, drawing enemy forces away from key areas, and then redeploying behind enemy lines.

When attacking across the ocean you're guaranteed to be outnumbered, so the trick will be to have the upper hand in any given fight. This can be achieved by using the speed of your ships to outmaneuver your opponent, striking direct from the sea before reinforcements can be marshalled/whipped. And remember that although Cats and Trebs can't bombard from the sea (Frigates can handle that), they can still cause collateral damage, so be sure to take a good supply of them to soften things up for the Zerks.

At the same time, a handful of Privateers can be deployed to blockade cities belonging to your other rivals. In particular, target the ones which rely on the sea for their food supply: these can easily be starved to the point of uselessness (Mehmed's capital looks especially vulnerable, for example).

In the short term, I'd be looking to boost production (though without compromising the Liberalism run) to get the troops/ships built in good time. Then, once the invasion force has sailed, I'd be switching to commerce (including turning workshops into cottages) to pay the costs of relentless violent expansion.

I wouldn't bother settling many island cities. The real meat is to be found in the continents to the west, and the additional maintenance costs from faraway settlements will inhibit your expansion there. I'd even be wary of settling any weak cities nearby - unless they can pay the extra costs very quickly (bearing in mind that every new city makes all other cities more costly) they'll just slow you down.

 

[slaze]

I think i remember seeing somewhere that the Forbidden Palace doesn't work if it's on another landmass, or it at least doesn't take out the distance costs. Maybe somebody can confirm

 

[DrJambo]

How is it a bug? You get money from exporting stuff... other get money from you importing stuff. He have really nice traderoutes because he export alot. The imports/exports rankings might be backwards though, but then again who cares for the other stuff like life expectancy and approval rate either? :S

Well, if the intention is to be ranked number 8 when one (i.e. Sisiutil in this case) has clearly got the best trade income vs outgoings ratio, then yes, I'd also say it's not a bug.

However, that's clearly bonkers. Sisiutil should be ranked number 1. Therefore, at the very least I'd consider it a bug, although more accurately it's probably just bad design. Unlike some of the other demographics, this information can actually be quite useful, particularly if one is considering a switch to Mercantilism....