ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[TheArchduke]

Hmm, you could actually take the conversion bonus to get theocracy online quicker and without too much hassle.

Not having a religous civic is a real waste imo.

 

[Airefuego]

I would not say it's a waste, as Sis has positive relations with every Civ as a result of not choosing a state religion. Also he hasn't had to spend hammers on monasteries and missionaries. But if one of the big religions arrives, it might be time for a miraculous conversion!

Real-life Ragnar would definitely go for vassalage, but probably not theocracy. Actually the Vikings used to target churches for pillage! Not because they were anti-religious - they just knew that unguarded treasure could be found there.

As for this game...? well, it's time to showcase the rabid foam-at-the-mouth power of a bunch of 'Zerks backed by a eye-poppingly powerful navy. Our privateers should arm up and ensure no-one else gets a boat in the water all game. And then - well, it's an archaepelagic map, so our frigates (when they get online) will be able to bombard nearly every enemy city's defences down to zero with little problem. So I think Sis is on the right track - hurtin' time shortly for Biz and then Hannibal right away afterwards.

 

[KMadCandy]

It amazes me that neither Confucianism nor Islam have spread to me. Islam would be the best option at this point, allowing me to cozy up to Hammy and Mehmed while I take on Bismarck, Hannibal, Sury, and Roosevelt in, yes, that order. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

i'm 99% sure hannibal's a voting member of the AP isn't he? i haven't checked this save but the last one i did i think he was. which means you can get capture at least one Islamic city from him by force, when you do go to war. it won't be a natural spread or start conveniently right now, but we know we can get access to it at least.

you probably meant does anyone have thoughts on the attack order? nah, i leave those pesky details about beating people up to you folks. it looks like isabella still has no religion either? naturally i vote yes for chemistry from liberalism. yarrrrr!

 

[Gooblah]

I'm confused; it looks like you have one turn left on Liberalism, but don't have Gunpowder. Does this mean you're planning on trading for Gunpowder? Gunpowder would lead to Rifling, etc, so I guess this is the best option. Also, do you have Open Borders with the Muslims or Confucians? It'll spread the religion faster.

 

[iamnleth]

I'm confused; it looks like you have one turn left on Liberalism, but don't have Gunpowder. Does this mean you're planning on trading for Gunpowder? Gunpowder would lead to Rifling, etc, so I guess this is the best option. Also, do you have Open Borders with the Muslims or Confucians? It'll spread the religion faster.

I hope he has open borders, it would be a silly waste of early astronomy and the great lighthouse if he didn't...

 

[OSaft]

You can get Steel from Liberalism. Switch to and research Economics. Trade for Gunpowder. Reserch Chemistry and Liberalism. It will delay Chemistry, free Religion and free Markets.

 

[URSExelcior]

Whoa, whoa, calm down Sis, you're updating too fast! Give us some time!

 

[popejubal]

You can get Steel from Liberalism. Switch to and research Economics. Trade for Gunpowder. Reserch Chemistry and Liberalism. It will delay Chemistry, free Religion and free Markets.

You can get steel from Liberalism, but Steel is only a tiny bit more expensive than Chemistry and Chemistry is a whole lot more expensive than anything else you're going to find nearby.

If this were a One City Challenge, I'd say that the obvious route would be to research Scientific Method and then finish Liberalism for Biology, but since we actually do have a fair number of cities and since we don't have too many farms, I'd say that Chemistry or Economics would be lovely choices.

Chemistry would give Frigates and that would allow you to bombard cities before an invasion. Being able to drop a city from 60% culture defense to 0% culture defense is a very handy thing. I hear Pirates! also bring the fun.

Economics gives Free Markets which grants you a very nice bonus to economy, but it also loses the Great Lighthouse IIRC. You end up with a net loss of 1 trade route per city. It does give the Great Merchant on the other hand, and that will allow for a mass upgrade of troops. On the gripping hand, you don't really have all that much to upgrade and you don't have anything really remarkable to upgrade to now that Grenadiers have been taken away from Chemistry.

...And speaking of which, I'd say that this is one of the VERY few games where I think the military path forward from Chemistry might actually be worthwhile. Steel would be nice for the Drydocks, but you can't bombard with cannons from offshore and Grenadiers upgraded from CRIII Berserkers would be just outstanding. Even upgrades from CRII Berserkers produced with a settled Great General would be a real treat. 12 Strength and ignore Walls and Castles? Sign me up.

I'd say take Chemistry with Liberalism after trading with anyone for Gunpowder (doesn't really matter who at this point - you'll kill them all soon enough). Invade someone who has a decent holy city since you'll need the per turn income to continue your conquests and then go to town with your CRII and CRIII Amphibious Grenadiers.

...and don't forget to escort your fleet with a Medic Frigate and a few Privateers to snipe at civs with whom you aren't currently at war.

 

[OSaft]

Steel is 50% more expensive then Chemistry. Chemistry is the same as Nationnalism or Replacable Parts. The Question is can Chemistry wait a few turns. I think it can. Units have to be build. There are these Barbarian Islands in the east.

Coporations obsolates the Great Lighthouse.

 

[popejubal]

Steel is 50% more expensive then Chemistry. Chemistry is the same as Nationnalism or Replacable Parts. The Question is can Chemistry wait a few turns. I think it can. Units have to be build. There are these Barbarian Islands in the east.

Coporations obsolates the Great Lighthouse.

Thanks for the Corporations tip. I just had research money path = obsolete Great Lighthouse, but knowing that you can still grab Free Markets without losing the Great Lighthouse bonus is a nice help. Makes Economics a lot more attractive, but still not as much as Chemistry in my mind.

For some reason, my rulebook lists Chemistry as 2000 base beakers while Steel is listed as 2400 base beakers. I guess that was a change from vanilla to BTS at some point. Still, you say that units have to be built, but those units can be Berserkers for centuries to come (especially if those Berserkers can be upgraded to Grenadiers). Steel gives nothing significant aside from Cannons and Cannons don't work too well from off shore. Frigates can take care of any bombardment needs we have and Berserkers and Grenadiers can take care of the invasions. A couple of Catapults for collateral damage will lower the defenses a little if there is need.

Chemistry will take a long time to research by hand and we're pretty likely to see at least some other civs get to Astronomy by then if we don't take advantage of the boost that Liberalism provides. Astronomy plus Chemistry is huge. It is even more huge now when we are may years from seeing anyone else with it. Astronomy plus Chemistry plus Steel is certainly better, but it's not enough better to make up for the large additional wait.

Besides, Privateers can get us a Great General very quickly which will make the Heroic Epic a good deal more useful. Grab the Chemistry. You know you want to.

 

[Sisiutil]

Whoa, whoa, calm down Sis, you're updating too fast! Give us some time!

Quiet in the cheap seats.

Besides, Privateers can get us a Great General very quickly which will make the Heroic Epic a good deal more useful. Grab the Chemistry. You know you want to.

Yeah, this is probably the way I'll go. Astronomy + Chemistry will leverage the naval advantage I already have and give Privateers a very long useful lifespan in this game. It's very tempting to wait and get the most expensive tech you can from Liberalism, but that's balanced out by getting a valuable tech early on, which is the case here with Chemistry.

 

[Melon Head]

I'm still drooling at the thought of C1, CR2, Amphib Grendadiers upgraded with the money from the free Econ GM.

That said, I think you should war sooner rather than later. First, it'll cement your tech lead. Second, late-game wars are boring and require lots of micro. Third, it lets you leverage Berserks faster. Then again, I've been a bit of a hawk for the last few games.

 

[Validator]

Disclaimer: I'm away from home and can't look at the save so some of my assumptions may not be accurate.

Even though Bismark is weak, taking him out won't be easy if Hannibal gets involved. You may want to have some additional troops ready just in case. Of course with just 4 German cities it may be possible to get your ships in position and then attack all 4 cities on the same turn, destroying Bismark before any of the AIs gets a turn. This strategy would prevent any other AIs from getting involved, but it might also prevent you from vassalizing Bismark, if that's your intent (a point which hasn't really been discussed much).

I'm not sure how big your army is, but if you need some more time to get ready then using the existing force to capture the barb gem city in the meantime will not only provide resources but it will have a good chance of attracting Islam.

Trading for Gunpowder now so you can take Chemistry as the free tech is a great idea. I would make the trade with Mehmed since if you trade with Hannibal he just might beat you to Economics. After getting Chemistry for free I would think the next tech target after Economics would be Military Science. By then you should be ready to attack Hannibal. CR2, Combat1, Drill1, Amphibious Grenadiers should get the job done.

One point where I disagree with most people is related to privateers. I'm not sure this is the right situation to make use of them. You have a good tech advantage right now (or will soon once Grens are available). I would be looking to try to maximize that advantage by going all out to take out as many AIs as I can before they catch up. Any hammers you spend on privateers are hammers that are not spent on frigates, berserkers, galleons, garrison units, etc. which you're going to need to conquer civs. Privateers really only let you harass AI civs, which seems to me to be a waste when you've got the means to actually conquer them.

 

[Gooblah]

Privateers can be extremely efficient at destroying economies, especially on a map like this;

Archipelagos force Civs to build all or most of their cities on the coast, to utilize the main source of food and commerce. Similarly, as this map shows, there is a good chance for many small or medium-sized continents. Thus, intercontinental trade is key to the economy. This makes Astronomy and Custom Houses a priority. Since Privateers block intercontinental trade, and have such a large radius, only a few are needed to effectively shut down an enemy Civ's economy. Also, they pillage Fishing Boats (I think they are the source of this). Thus, you can knock out an enemy's food and commerce, putting them into recession and their cities into starvation. This will substantially weaken any Specialist Economy.

As for the actual target, I suggest Roosevelt, Suryavarman, or Isabella. Roosevelt and Suryavarman are close together and are potential targets anyways.
Isabella is Isabella, so whatever . Seriously, she has small land, and we could starve here into extinction.

 

[Validator]

Destroying an AI economy using privateers isn't quite as easy as you're making out. It requires a substantial investment to build enough privateers to fully blockade their cities. Since the AI will attack privateers with large numbers of inferior ships I've found I usually need to have at least 2 privateers stacked together to keep them alive for very long. Given the size of the coastlines involved that's an awful lot of privateers.

And what's the purpose of destroying an AI civ's economy in the first place? It's to allow the human player to gain a tech advantage that can be used to conquer the AI civ. Sisiutil already has reached that point in this case (or he'll get there shortly).

I think one of the big overall strategic issues when playing Civ is to learn to focus on what's really important and ignore all the extraneous stuff that the game throws at you. Wonders aren't the only "Oh Shiny..." things in Civ. Each item that becomes available to the player has to be viewed from the point of "Does this really help me achieve my goal?". IMO privateers don't really help achieve victory in this case.

As I see it this game can be over (via a Conquest victory) in a couple of rounds if Sisiutil pushes his advantage. An initial attack on Bismark, followed up quickly by attacks on Hannibal/Isabella then the two Islamic civs (hopefully not at the same time). Force them each into submission and then immediately move on to the next. Roosevelt and Sury are so backwards they can easily be finished off once the rest are dealt with. There's no reason to be thinking long term here.


BTW I forgot to mention it in my earlier post but by the same general reasoning I would also ignore the Knights quest. All available hammers are better spent on the main units needed for conquest.

 

[reknaw]

I don't think this makes any difference to the game, but Judaism seems to have spread to one of Isabella's cities (Sabratha) near the end of your last round, given that she is already running Organised Religion (no big shock, it is her favourite civic after all), I wouldn't be surprised if she converts very soon. Given that she has neither pigs nor crabs, staying Kosher shouldn't be too hard... (Sorry, bad joke)

 

[Jet]

focus on what's really important and ignore all the extraneous stuff

Quoted for truth. A game of interesting choices.

 

[Airefuego]

Validator's points are excellent as always. I'm convinced.

It's important to remember that the ALC is intended to show the strength of each Leader, as well as to entertain the masses in the cheap seats We have sea power, we have Zerks, and Ragnar is happiest when attacking his "friends" when they least expect it... no need to sneak around too much with secretive privateers, Ragnar attacks full frontal with his flag flying proudly! His enemies die KNOWING who killed them!

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 7: 1130 AD to 1395 AD (41 turns)

I started the round by making the tech trade we'd discussed:

On the next turn, that allowed me to finish researching Liberalism and choose my free technology:

I then researched Economics, got it and the Free Great Merchant, and then did a big civics change.

Without a state religion, none of the religious civics made any sense, so FR was the best option there. The only religions with significant spread were ones that would tick off the powerful civs, and I don't need that. So I chose Vassalage to provide me with a bit of a XP boost and Free Market to buoy up the economy. Unfortunately, more and more civs researched Banking and switched to Mercantilism as the round wore on, so that proved costly. Not crippling, but costly.

I made a few tech trades along the way. Most of the AIs seemed to be ignoring/delaying Astronomy and focusing on land-based defense by going after Rifling. Interesting.

The GM went to Carthage, since pretty much all the AI cities were offering the same amount of trade mission gold.

Speaking of Great People, my next GP was a Great Scientist out of Nidaros. I decided to use him for an Academy, since it's my best science city and still didn't have one.

I began to trade away Economics wherever I could get a decent deal for it, hoping to encourage the AIs to switch to Free Market. I got a heckuva deal for it from Izzy:

All this time I'd been building up units. Finally I felt like I had enough to launch an assault and declared war on my first target once the task force was in position.

It took a couple of turns to remove Berlin's city defenses. In the interim, my next Great Person appeared, and he was a pleasant surprise:

A couple of upcoming possibilities come to mind: the Statue of Liberty, or founding Mining Inc. Let me know what you think.

On that same turn, Berlin's defenses were eliminated. I wasn't content to rely solely on Berserkers for my attacks. I brought along several Trebuchets as well, even though they suffer from a significant penalty when attacking from aboard ship.

Nevertheless, they did surprisingly well. I think I only lost one during this attack. The Trebs made the 'Zerks' work pretty easy, and Berlin was mine:

You can see why I took it out first, what the Statue of Zeus there. That should keep my war weariness down to reasonable levels for the duration of the conflict. And it's going to cause problems for anyone else I go up against. I then sent my Frigates off to remove the defenses from the other German cities while my units healed.

My next tech came up shortly after the battle of Berlin:

With that in place and all that lovely money from the trade mission, I decided to upgrade my collateral damage units.

Cannons and 'Zerks made short work of the garrison in the next city I captured:

And then, on the next-to-last turn of the round, I finished another wonder in Nidaros:

So my second golden age of the game is underway. I can make a free civics change or two. Perhaps Universal Suffrage to use up the trade mission gold for some infrastructure? I was also thinking of Nationalism for its +2 happiness from barracks, not to mention drafting. Once I get enough Viking culture in them, either Munich, with its 3 fish tiles, or Berlin, with its 2 clams and 2 corn, would make a very good Globe Theatre/drafting cities. Which may argue in favour of eliminating Bizzy rather than vassalizing him; IIRC, if I eliminate him, my culture takes over all former German cities, whereas if he becomes my vassal, I have an uphill struggle to "take over" those cities. Thoughts?

Meanwhile, I've got the third German city, Hamburg, ready for capture. It has a population of 11 and no wonders and is built directly on top of a corn tile. If it were earlier in the game I'd be tempted to raze it and build a city in a better location (as you'll see, 1W would have been better), but this late in the game, with such a large city, I might just keep it. It does get +1 food from the corn and has clams and pigs for food as well, so it's not doing badly. But, as with everything, I await your input.

Anyway, that's it for this round. A state of the world post will follow.

 

[Sisiutil]

The State of the World, 1395 AD
First off all, here is a map of the main Viking territory:

And here's a look at the newest acquisitions:

Hamburg is mine. I thought I'd post the round before capturing it to make sure I'm doing the right decision by keeping it instead of razing it. As you can see, eliminating Bismarck will involve heading southwest to attack Cologne. It's a holy city, so I suppose I should keep it, but it's going to have to fight off Babylonian culture. It would be worth it if I can take that banana tile, but that will probably take a lot of work unless I get a Great Artists sometime soon.

Domestic advisor:

I should also mention that I have my first Great General, who's back on the mainland awaiting transport to the theatre of operations so he can become a Medic III unit (attached to a Knight I created for that purpose).

On a related note, I decided to forgo the Knight quest. It just didn't seem worth the effort, and I had a lot of other units to build.

Civics:

As I said, I'm thinking of changing to US for the duration of the GA, and to Nationalism for a much longer period of time. Thoughts?

Foreign advisor, relations and glance:

Active trades:

I managed to get that 4th fur on-line by running an Artist in Tonsberg for a few turns.

Trade routes income and civics:

Techs:

I think I should build a few more monasteries before I trade with Mehmed for Scientific Method--but I don't want to wait too long. SM unlocks a lot of very handy techs.

Power:

Hannibal has Rifling, so he could prove problematic. That's a big reason I'm going after Military Science, so I'll have the counter to Riflemen. The main reason behind the attack on Germany, remember, is to use it as a springboard to go after Carthage. So we need to discuss how to deal with Carthaginian Riflemen.

Demographics:

Top 5 cities and wonders:

And, finally, Espionage, with a focus on Hannibal:

So the decision points that I see include keeping or razing Hamburg, ditto for Cologne (or vassalizing Bismarck), civics, what use to make of the Great Engineer, and the big one, when and who and how to attack next. It also occurs to me that I better start beefing up security back home--Bismarck has Astronomy and may trade it in desperation.