ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[EEE_BOY]

correction: wangkon does not have paper, you are monopoly on paper.

I would lightbulb half of PP, half of chemistry using your next two GSs, self research the rest of education, PP and chemstry, then take steel as free tech, that's a very powerful military tech when other civs still using cold weapons.

 

[rupertmonkey]

It's a little bizarre. I feel like everything I know about Civ I learned from you, but you never take my advice and we play very differently. I would've kept Vilcas, with its horses and cattle, and as a good launching point for your war with America. Oh well...

Don't move the capital, and don't even think about the FP yet. How about Tiwanaku for the NE? It's got the Oracle and you might want to build the shrines you don't have. Does the TofA prophet give prophet points in addition to the merchant points? I have no idea what kind of GPP you get from the SofZ.

Definitely kill Washington ASAP so you only have to worry about your northern borders. I've found the Koreans and the Russians just love to attack me, and I've never played aggressive AI. Great job so far. Good luck!

 

[TheArchduke]

Hmmm,

Didn´t Manchu Pichu host the Great Lighthouse?

 

[DrJambo]

Well done Sisiutil, that was a most accomplished round, and with De Gaulle and Peter warring against Washington, it's look like you're next opponent has already been nicely earmarked for you!

With AggAI on, diplomacy is key in staving off an unwated DoW, particularly as disparity in power is usually a given. De Gaulle and Peter are 'Pleased' and whilst they're warring with Washington they won't DoW with you. This should give you some peace of mind. Ideally getting one or both of them to Friendly would assure you of safety. You're number 1 in land which is good and after a brief period of building you should find the other demographics start to improve somewhat.

I've never been convinced in lightbulbing and in fact never usually do this, unless I'm lagging a little in tech and spot an opportunity to lightbulb a tech that most of the AIs don't have. With tech in pretty good shape right now I might have been more inclined to settle them or build academies. Long term this will benefit more.

 

[Mesousa]

Meanwhile, I was researching Civil Service, and with one turn to go on that tech, no one else had researched Philosophy to found a religion. I suppose I could have put off finishing CS, but I was eager to reap the benefits of Bureaucracy for Ulundi. So I wound up lightbulbing Philosophy with one of my Great Scientists (I had two sitting around in the capital at this point).

Maybe it's because I just got up, but what does Philosophy have to do with reaping the benefits of Bureaucracy?

If you're willing to wait for a NE city, 3N 2W of Washington (corn, wheat, sheep, three floodplains, and iron) looks nice for it on the screenshot, though you would have overlap with three surrounding cities, so it might depend on how you value them. Similar for the area between Chicago and Boston. But I guess one of your several floodplains & grassland cities would make for a more immediate choice.

 

[Yeosol]

Yes I too would like to know your thought prosess on burning the Great Lighthouse. Machu Piccu wasn't in the best of spots but the GL should of atleast paid for its maitnence, if not improved the econ.

 

[Munch]

Yes I too would like to know your thought prosess on burning the Great Lighthouse. Machu Piccu wasn't in the best of spots but the GL should of atleast paid for its maitnence, if not improved the econ.

Dunno, it only gives +2 trade routes in coastal cities, and including Machu Picchu that's just 2 cities that get any trade boost. A couple of great merchant points would be nice, but I doubt you'd ever see the benefit of them. It was a good idea to raze, I believe.

 

[Daedal]

Just something to note while I was glancing at your screenshot of American territory: they have very little food! Most of America's cities have only one food resource each and are otherwise surrounded by tundra, hills, and desert (so much for being the world's bread basket..). So when you take that territory, what exactly are you going to do with it? It's going to be hard to support many cottages or specialists and the maintenance cost is going to put your economy back in the red. Building FP in Boston or LA will help with city maintenance, but it won't do anything for that land being largely worthless.

Since this game isn't a sure win yet, might it be prudent to go after better land first? Wang Kon looks nice...

 

[Sisiutil]

Maybe it's because I just got up, but what does Philosophy have to do with reaping the benefits of Bureaucracy?

If you're willing to wait for a NE city, 3N 2W of Washington (corn, wheat, sheep, three floodplains, and iron) looks nice for it on the screenshot, though you would have overlap with three surrounding cities, so it might depend on how you value them. Similar for the area between Chicago and Boston. But I guess one of your several floodplains & grassland cities would make for a more immediate choice.

IIRC, once you have Bureaucracy, a GS will lightbulb Paper, not Philosophy. Even if I was mistaken, that was my reasoning.

As for that NE spot, it will likely take far too long to claim it, and it's time to get on with building the NE somewhere to keep up the steady supply of Great Scientists, especially now that I'm going to throttle back my research to further build my military.

Yes I too would like to know your thought prosess on burning the Great Lighthouse. Machu Piccu wasn't in the best of spots but the GL should of atleast paid for its maitnence, if not improved the econ.

Munch pretty much explained it. It's a wonder of negligible benefit on this map, so I ignored it and pondered whether or not I actually wanted that city. Besides, several of you were urging me to raze, raze, raze. Who am I to deny your malevolent whims?

 

[r_rolo1]

Nicely played so far... clearly a good use of both UU and UB...

Just a small question: I do understand that killing america would give you a smaller front to other civs and a more secure backyard , but America land sucks badly.... IMHO it doesn't worth the effort of a full conquest. This is one case where I would think on vassalizing....

 

[Lekdevil.NL]

With the entire world being part of the big, happy Islamic family, I wonder how you're planning on dealing with the Apostolic Palace. It could be a major factor in any upcoming wars against the brothers in the faith. Build it yourself? Pry it from your enemy's cold, dead fingers? Burn it to the ground (which might be difficult if it gets built on the other side of the world)?

 

[civ4legs]

Well played round! Excellent use of the Golden Age. I cringed when you made the switch to HR, but I was appeased when you saved 3 rounds of anarchy later

I'm not a big bulber, but I think it makes sense for you, since you were teching the quicker military ones the long way and using the bulbs for the longer, liberalism ones. Maybe someday I'll make use of lots of bulbing...

I think I would have kept Macchu for the cows and the horses: those are two potent spots for production. No biggie though. It's too bad you lose the culture points for someone else' wonder, otherwise it would have been a great city for holding a border.

I tend to think that taking out America is the best bet. If the AI is already helping to take them out, it only helps your diplo to dogpile (it looks like you'd jump to Friendly with the muslim block very quickly. Also, America isn't going to be able hold them all off, so you better get a piece of the pie, even just to deny it from another civ: even more important given that the land would be assimilated into the huge muslim monolith...

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I usually bulb either Philosophy or Education or both on the way to Liberalism. I self research paper because I think you waste beakers if you bulb Paper.

The Americans are the obvious next target. Once you add their land and big cities you should have a major lead in this game.

With Agg AI, unless you are Friendly almost any AI will attack if the power curve is significantly in their favor. And you can't take much comfort in the fact your relations with a given AI are better than some other AI's. You may still get DOW'ed.

But here the co-religion points may help you defer the inevitable DOW. Any way to stir up trouble between the AI's?

The war with the Americans may be a long one. That argues for an early Liberalism and taking Nationalism so you can take Nationhood as a civic during the long war. Even tho you have Zeus, the AI's never seem too bothered by war weariness.

 

[arbarbonif]

Nicely played so far... clearly a good use of both UU and UB...

Just a small question: I do understand that killing america would give you a smaller front to other civs and a more secure backyard , but America land sucks badly.... IMHO it doesn't worth the effort of a full conquest. This is one case where I would think on vassalizing....

It seems to me that taking America would make the front worse. There would be only one front, but it consists of the length of the planet. In terms of 'number of places that a stack needs to be able to reach quickly' (which would be my concern with a front), it seems that going north and crushing Korea (if that was feasible) would give you a more defensible empire. I would think that a spherical empire is much more defensible than a linear one.

Once question I have tho, is how the AI will behave on a inland sea map. If they spam naval forces, you may want to avoid the sea as much as possible (since it would act as front with most everybody. That would suggest taking the the core America cities, ignoring the coastal ones. It looks like the area around the capital consists of flood plain mania.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Hmm ... I have a lot of thoughts, but I'm not sure how to put them into cogent sentences.

First off, another round so very well-played -- maintaining a tech lead amidst a war and a faltering economy is nothing short of miraculous!

Espionage

Hammurabi is most likely to beat you to Liberalism (what with the Masjid Al-Haram churning out ~20⁺ every turn in Babylon and all), so I'd put 100% towards him to gain sight into his research.

After that, I'd probably put 100% towards Peter (or whoever your after-Washington target is going to be).

America

The Silver you want is 3 border pops between Washington and New York. If you want it, your quickest route is to allow G.W. to keep either Washington or New York and make him your vassal. (Otherwise, it could be the end of the game before you see that Silver again.)

American soil isn't as good as yours, but it isn't altogether horrible.

Chicago and New York have dead tiles but with good food and tiles to work with and so are worth assimilating.

Boston and Atlanta have dead tiles but are half-decent; it wouldn't help or hurt much to assimilate them.

Philadelphia, Washington (see above, also) and Seattle are food poor and not worth assimilating.

Portland and Los Angeles are crap.​

If plausible, capture and keep Chicago and New York. Vassalize Washington and liberate everything else back to him.

You should consider bribing Peter and/or De Gaulle into peace with Washington to prevent him from becoming an ill-fated Vassal to either of them.

Victory Condition

What is our desired victory? It looks like Domination, but I'd rather ask and know for certain than assume and be incorrect.

I specifically ask this, because we need to also begin thinking about the target after Washington and how to approach the task without turning the world against us.

Religion & Politics

Triangle #1, "The Guerrillas": Wang Kon - Shaka (Sisiutil) - Hammurabi - Washington

Our trading block is the most technologically advanced but is otherwise militarily weak.

Hammurabi is in love with everyone, so only Wang Kon can be presumed reliable as a military ally but only against De Gaulle or Peter.

Cannibalizing our trading block is always an option, but now doesn't feel like the right time for that.​

Triangle #2, "The Earth-Shakers": Peter - De Gaulle - Hammurabi

If Peter and De Gaulle are left unchecked, they're going to dogpile and conquer the world.

One (or both) of these two need to be broken off the Islamic block and put on the chopping block.

They both have good and bad points to them, so it's really hard for me to decide which should be targeted.

BUT, Peter has the best land and is #1 on the scoreboard. If you side with him, he's only going to become an even bigger threat.

As audacious as it seems, converting Peter and bribing the world to dogpile him would cement your power and all but guarantee you a win.

With your Diplomatic prowess, I have complete faith in your ability to accomplish just such a feat! ​

The Apo-freakin-stolic Palace

Hammurabi discovered Theology and traded it to De Gaulle and Washington. He's the only one of the three at peace, so there's a 92.713% chance he'll build & control it.

Since he's in love with everybody, I'd expect a lot of "stop the war" votes in the future.

I'm not sure what that means for planning, though, because I'm terrible at dealing with the AP, but there it is.

Summary

Take Chicago and New York. Vassalize Washington. Spam Confucianism to and convert Peter. Bribe world against Peter. Win.


-- my 2

 

[popejubal]

Triangle #2, "The Earth-Shakers": Peter - De Gaulle - Hammurabi

If Peter and De Gaulle are left unchecked, they're going to dogpile and conquer the world.

One (or both) of these two need to be broken off the Islamic block and put on the chopping block.

They both have good and bad points to them, so it's really hard for me to decide which should be targeted.

BUT, Peter has the best land and is #1 on the scoreboard. If you side with him, he's only going to become an even bigger threat.

As audacious as it seems, converting Peter and bribing the world to dogpile him would cement your power and all but guarantee you a win.

With your Diplomatic prowess, I have complete faith in your ability to accomplish just such a feat! ​

Summary

Take Chicago and New York. Vassalize Washington. Spam Confucianism to and convert Peter. Bribe world against Peter. Win.

I'd like to point out that Islam is not Peter's favorite religion, so you won't have to work extra hard to convert him. Also, only 5 our of his 11 cities have Islam in them. I'd guess 7-8 more cities will need to be converted to Confucianism or Taoism to have him flop over (he already has 1 of each IIRC).

7-8 missionaries targeted first at his cities without religion (to make the spread of Islam less likely) and then at his capital and other major population centers wre extremely likely to flip him to most-hated-nation status.

Also, after you take Washington (this is assuming you are successful, nto a 100% guarantee), you will have about 1/3 of the map. As long as you manage your empire well, you shouldn't need another war after that to win the game. Being Shaka, you might want another war, but I'd much rather fight a Civ IV war because I want to than because I have to.

This frees up your options against Peter since you won't have to go after him to gain territory. You can choose your path of assault and leave the empty land either on Hammurabi's side or on DeGaul's side to allow one empire to expand as a counterweight to the other. Peter is also well situated to allow you to take territory that will be easy for you to keep. Those bottom 4 cities below Wang Kong's island of culture will fit neatly into your empire and you can absorb them into your empire without any cultural or defensive troubles.

Two final thoughts:
1. Razing cities now is a good idea. It's tough to get marginal cities to produce more than they cost at this point in the game. Once you have Biology, though, any city can support its own costs. Whip up a Granary, Courthouse and Marketplace with your 4 food grassland farms and watch your yearly science climb without any impact on your cash per turn.
2. Don't get greedy on the attack. Invite allies. Take time to digest HC before you attack Washington. Take time to digest Washington before you attack Peter. Start planting some missionaries in Peter's cities now to get him started on his path out of the Islamic block (5 missionaries is safe since he won't flip away from Islam unless he has at least as many cities in the new religion as he has Islamic cities). Plan ahead far enough that you'll have a manageable fight on your hand and can choose who will get the scraps of Peter's empire when you're done with it.


Heck, you might even choose to build a pair of settlers and gift them to Wang Kong inside that culture bubble of his once you start the war against Peter.

 

[popejubal]

It seems to me that taking America would make the front worse. There would be only one front, but it consists of the length of the planet. In terms of 'number of places that a stack needs to be able to reach quickly' (which would be my concern with a front), it seems that going north and crushing Korea (if that was feasible) would give you a more defensible empire. I would think that a spherical empire is much more defensible than a linear one.

Taking all of the good bits of Washington would leave a front less than 1/2 the current front and all of the land would be contiguous and wrap around the entire world. The inland sea will do a very nice job of protecting against invasions from that direction since the AI is unlikely to build a ton of boats on this map. That leaves a straight line from the western shore to the eastern shore of the lake once Washington is taken. Washington is also the easiest target to take once ware is declared since he is essentially surrounded by Sisiutil's land. This is one time that I think a difficult to defend front is an asset - as long as we're attacking Washington instead of trying to defend against a 3rd party who is attacking through Washington's land.

None of this will happen in the next couple of updates, though. It's just food for thought on the long term strategy at this point.

 

[masterlefty]

Does the TofA prophet give prophet points in addition to the merchant points? I have no idea what kind of GPP you get from the SofZ.

Zeus gives +2 GPP points to a GA
Enemies suffer +100% war weariness

Artemis gives +2 GPP points to a GM
+100% Trade Route Yield
+1 Free Priest

Kenny

 

[Scarredroman]

Spreading Isalam to the remiaing cities is goingo take a while, as is the plan to send 7 missionaries to Confucianize Peter.Washington seems to have most of his cities in the wrong place - I'd like a dot mapping expert locate where the cities ought to be located. Building settlers would take up too much time right now. As long as you don't get involved Washington can hold off both Peter and De Gaulle whp are bot hbackstabbers par excellence. That means neither will risk too much for fear the other will backstab.

Wang Kon has 4 Muslim and 4 Christian cities. If he loses a muslim city, he'll convert to Christianity. I'd look to invade Wang Kon to tidy up your holdings and leave him a Christian state.

Look to see if Washington will give you something so that you don't get asked to join a war against him.

 

[Sisiutil]

Look to see if Washington will give you something so that you don't get asked to join a war against him.

I wasn't aware that there was a diplomatic option to do something like that?

Nevertheless, your idea of attacking Korea rather than America is intriguing.