ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[OTAKUjbski]

I know some of you recommended capturing Chicago, but I don't see what's so great about it.

Sure, Chicago has 3 'dead' tiles, but it's otherwise food neutral. 17 tiles minus 3 (for the Oasis, the Corn and its irrigation farm) equals 14 Towns Chicago can potentially work. Or, you can mine the four hills and work 10 Towns and 14 worth of production.

BTW, this is also true for New York, which is food neutral @ 18 with 16 "blank" tiles -- 3 of which already have Towns worked up for you!

--though if I leave George with the latter and vassalize him, I'll be able to get silver much earlier than on my own.

Definitely let Washington keep Washington. It's not an altogether bad city, but by "Capital" standards, it's crap.


IMO:

Peter has a small stack outside Chicago now, but it doesn't look large enough to take the city on the next turn.

Thracian is 3 moves (1 turn) from right outside Chicago. It'll put Thracian in a bad way until you can reinforce it, but move its garrison to the desert hill where Peter's mini SoD is.

I'll put money on it Peter weakens the city just enough for you to take it on the next turn.

At the same time, move your main SoD to New York and take it in 2 turns.

Then enslave Washington.

You will net the best cities of the American empire and have left Washington without enough to do you any real damage if he breaks in the future.


-- my 2

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I wouldn't let GW Capitulate. Since you still plan on being chummy with at least one of the other big civs (at least until all the other threats are neutralized) I think the Diplo hits might not so much outright mess things up, but might put you in a position where another civ forces your hand in the matter as opposed to you creating a plan of attack and executing when it best suits you. IE: One leader might be a better target, but maybe a less viable target decides he dislikes you enough to DoW and you have to waste time/resources fighting that war instead of focusing on taking out the biggest threats or absorbing the juiciest land.

Also, personally I feel that I always make much better use of the land with regards to the specific victory condition I want than a Vassal possibly ever could, so I'd rather just take it all for myself and spend the time specializing each city to my needs rather than having the AI do whatever it thinks is ideal (like building those 30 Corporate Exec SoD's I see so often).

As for next war targets I'd go for DeGaulle. Both he and Peter seem to be even enough, but Peter will be fielding Cossacks soon whereas DeGaulles UU is already obsolete. Cossacks might not be as feared as they were, but they're still more powerful than your standard Cavalry so all other things being equal you might as well dine on some Grenouille! (that's french for frog I think)

 

[Melon Head]

Take Washington's offer of vassalization. As you said, his terrain is awful and the more terrain you leave him, the more productive a vassal he'll be. Also, it'll place him as a nice buffer zone between you and any aggression from that side.

I'd agree with attacking De Gaulle next. Wang Kon is beautifully placed to let you consolidate your borders, and geographically I'd prefer to do that, but in reality I think you need to take care of De Gaulle as he's the bigger threat, and outside the current diplomatic arena. Do that, then think about taking on Wang Kon or the Peter/Hammurabi block.

 

[Munch]

Here's another vote to add to the many urging you to vassalise Washington. There are so many positive points:

# you can just demand his silver etc
# he won't vassalise to someone else (if he'll submit to you, he'll submit to the others)
# you can concentrate on your northern front (the caucasus-esque land bridge) and ignore your side borders
# some other things I can;t think of right now

I'd then amass troops in korea (or wherever the closest friendly territory is to Paris) and go for the decapitation strike against France. Maybe swing through one other city on the way but target the Capital as soon as possible - a bit of a Schlieffen plan if you will. This could bring a swift end to the Zulu-France war, with the aim being to vassalise as soon as possible. By conquering central cities such as Paris, you wouldn't have to worry about stationing loads of troops there as De Gaulle would do the defense work for you in his own buffer territory. I believe you would also get all the fat cross tiles for each city you capture upon vassalising, so you wouldn't have to worry about his pesky culture.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Vassalize Washington, 3 reasons
1. can immediately move onto a new war v. France or Korea
2. you need Washington's votes in the AP
3. Prevent Peteraubbi from becoming more powerful

I MIGHT risk taking New York/Chicago first because I don't think Peter is big enough to Vassalize him yet. (you have more territory but I'm not sure)

If you are worried about him freeing himself, then a new war will help that (every city you take is 2 new cities he needs... and he is food poor)

There are only 2 questions remaining

Grenadiers + Cannons
or
Riflemen + Cavalry

AND

France
or
Korea

Speaking for the Gren+Can is the fact that you can get Chemistry and boost your Workshops

Speaking for the Rifles+Cavalry is the boost to Watermills/Windmills

The second is better with a Tech lead (neither Korea nor France have PP yet, and Korea doesn't have Gunpowder)

As for Korea v. France... Peter is the more powerful of Peterabbi, and he likes France More... Korea only has Longbows.. Protective Longbows, but Longbows... Also Korea is Weaker.. and its cities are closer to yours.
Finally, France has a new Religion...give it a little bit of time and the Islamic Bloc may split.

So I would probably
1. Vasslaize Washington (maybe take New York/Chicago)
2. do a Trade Mission
3. Deficit Research Rifling (remnants of the Trade Mission can be used for upgrades)
4. Trade for Constitution with Hammurabi and go Mercantilism+Representation (you will get trade routes from your Vassals, and none for your enemies)
5. Go after Korea with your existing military (upgraded or not)

Washington is 5 turns from Chemistry.. after you Vassalize him and wait for a while he might be willing to Trade it. (Defensive Pact+Shared War with Korea)

6. Vassalize Korea ASAP
7. Prepare for War with France (do it when you have spread Islam widely within your Vassals to control the AP and when France goes FR/something else)
8. Vassalize France ASAP
9. Choose next Target (Russia/Babylon) and once they are Vassalized vote yourself Victor of the Global Jihad

(continue researching the path to Assembly Line, Combustion, Medicine, Industrialism)
[Go for Mercantilist Mining Inc instead of State Property if possible... that lets you avoid any more civic changes... although I would have stuck with Theocracy]

 

[oldsaxon]

I've had another think about vassalisation (I'm for it), and I've realised my argument basically boils down to one thing:

It's quicker.

For 0 turns' extra work, you get a vassal. That's a great proposition. On the other hand, continuing the war is nothing special... you'd do just as well starting another one, especially against Wang Kon or De Gaulle who are already occupied.

 

[Berkobob]

I'm glad to see you went after Washington second.

A suggestion: instead of spending hammers on missionaries , try to bribe your next target into adopting Free Religion to lower his diplo bonuses.

 

[Sisiutil]

Any chance Washington will give you NY or DC? That silver looks nice.

Yes, but they're outside the cities' fat crosses and can't be worked, so I could just as easily demand silver from George.

I'm glad to see you went after Washington second.

A suggestion: instead of spending hammers on missionaries , try to bribe your next target into adopting Free Religion to lower his diplo bonuses.

Ah, yes, but I'd have to adopt FR first and loose the diplo bonuses myself. If I were Spiritual, I'd consider it, but as has been pointed out, Shaka is not Spiritual.

 

[ratrangerm]

First of all, good to see that you had enough votes for yourself, and had two people supporting you, to secure the AP residency.

Most everyone is saying you should vassalize Washington, and while the initial idea was to try for a Conquest victory, Domination looks to be the better option. So I'd take him as a vassal.

I would then go after Wang Kon, in the hopes you can make him your vassal as well.

And then, yes, your next target after that should be either Peter or DeGaulle. Whichever one you pick, you should be spreading religion to that civ so you can continue breaking up the Islam pack. You shouldn't lose your AP residence status, as having Washington and Wang Kon as vassals should give you enough votes to stay in that position.

 

[Mesousa]

About that Great Merchant, it would be nice to found Cereal Mills, it should be powerful on this map, but of course saving him that long might not be a good idea ... still, if the game lasts that long and you get another GM, I'd certainly keep that corporation in mind.

Partially bulbing Constitution with the one you got seems like a good idea, certainly more useful than a trade mission at this point. Or just settle him in your main commerce or your NE city.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I'm in general agreement with Krikkitone on how to proceed.

I'd also warn, however, that in their current war there's a strong chance of Wang capitulating to De Gaulle. Cheju has already fallen, the French power graph is double that of the Koreans, plus De Gaulle has a tech advantage - one which gives him the use of his fast-moving UU.

If this should happen, then the next war will be much tougher, and could quite easily turn into Shaka vs. The Rest of the World.

To be on the safe side, I'd bribe De Gaulle to call off les chiens de guerre. That should give you time to make your move, but you'll still have to act swiftly - Wang is just waiting to be dominated at this point.

Overall, I think that the next turnset will be crucial, needing a subtle blend of careful diplomacy and extreme violence to reach a satisfactory conculsion. If that goes well, though, the game should be yours for the taking.

Wow, Aggressive AI slows down tech rate a lot.

It's not just AggAI.

No Tech Brokering and, to a lesser extent, No Goody Huts will both have slowed the tech rate in this game.

The amount of land the AI civs had to REX into is probably a factor as well - it's not only human players who slow down their research by spreading too far, too fast.

 

[CivCorpse]

First of all, good to see that you had enough votes for yourself, and had two people supporting you, to secure the AP residency.

Most everyone is saying you should vassalize Washington, and while the initial idea was to try for a Conquest victory, Domination looks to be the better option. So I'd take him as a vassal.

I would then go after Wang Kon, in the hopes you can make him your vassal as well.

And then, yes, your next target after that should be either Peter or DeGaulle. Whichever one you pick, you should be spreading religion to that civ so you can continue breaking up the Islam pack. You shouldn't lose your AP residence status, as having Washington and Wang Kon as vassals should give you enough votes to stay in that position.

A. Vassalize Washington. If you don't then peter will. And then you have a problem when it is time to deal with peter. Washington has borders with both ends of Zulutopia. And if he vassalizes to someone else. which is pretty much a given, then they will not capitulate to you until he breaks free. war vassals count towards conquest victories.

B. After vassalizing Washington, check if Wang will become your vassal without a DOW. If the war with Degaulle is going poorly, he might do it to save his arse. If he won't, I would DOW him rather than Degaulle. He is much weaker than the french. Also having him as a war ally is not that big a deal. And he will capitulate much quicker than the french.

 

[KaytieKat]

... B. After vassalizing Washington, check if Wang will become your vassal without a DOW. If the war with Degaulle is going poorly, he might do it to save his arse. If he won't, I would DOW him rather than Degaulle. He is much weaker than the french. Also having him as a war ally is not that big a deal. And he will capitulate much quicker than the french.

Hi

Just be ready if you try that move. If wang does accept and becomes your vassal voluntarily while he is in middle of war with degaule u will automatically become at war with degaule then and there as soon as wang accepts.

Kaytie

 

[CivCorpse]

Hi

Just be ready if you try that move. If wang does accept and becomes your vassal voluntarily while he is in middle of war with degaule u will automatically become at war with degaule then and there as soon as wang accepts.

Kaytie

That is the idea. We get to go to war with degaulle, who was one of the two choices for attacking. This way we get another vassal and start the war with degaulle as well. With the french having a significant advantage over wang. It is only a matter of time before the koreans capitulate. That leaves the french having the tech heavy wang to bump them up the tech tree and makes them that much more dangerous in the long run.
If we get washington vassalized as well as wang. Then it is an instant dogpile on degaulle. And wang is more likely to capitulate to us if he is getting beat up by degaulle. Meaning we don't have to attack him and wreck his civ to the point that he is a useless vassal.
If we take a few cities from the french, we will have enough land and population to prevent either of our vassals from breaking free. If the ensuing war with the french allows us to capitulate them as well, then we are in a great position to deal with peter.

 

[iamnleth]

Off-topic: Sisiutil, do you use some kind of scaling tool to make your cities appear larger?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The one problem with peacefully taking Wang as a vassal is he can break off later... not saying its an entirely bad move... but it does have some risks (although if you stay in caste system, and don't ask Wang for too much, you may be able to hold onto him as a vassal.)

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Off-topic: Sisiutil, do you use some kind of scaling tool to make your cities appear larger?

I have a special tool to make Wang appear larger

 

[iamnleth]

I have a special tool to make Wang appear larger

...Kon artist, eh?

 

[Jet]

I'll see your tool to make Wang appear larger and raise you a Wang breaking off later would be the worst possible outcome, in any game, ever.



still waiting for the next turnset, Sisiutil...

 

[ParadigmShifter]

No, I just discovered optics

EDIT: Taking Wang out seems to be the best option, as loaded with double-entendre's as it is...