ALC Game 21: Zulus/Shaka

[Shoot the Moon]

I wasn't aware that there was a diplomatic option to do something like that?

There isn't.

Nevertheless, your idea of attacking Korea rather than America is intriguing.

Do you really want to take on a protective leader with longbows at this point of the game? I think it would be better to wait to take out Korea until after you have gunpowder units. There's just no point in taking on a civ when their advantages are biggest. Be opportunistic and take out America now (I could consider a quick vasilization to be taking them out, just make sure he's at peace with the others first.)

 

[patagonia]

I wasn't aware that there was a diplomatic option to do something like that?

If you demand tribute (or request a gift from a pleased/friendly AI) and they accept, you're barred from declaring war for 10 turns.

Also, be wary of taking on a pariah as a vassal (even if you capitulate them), since the AI will factor in how much it hates your vassal when deciding whether to war with you or not. Since pretty much everyone hates Washington, he'll likely be a liability until you can sow the seeds of discontent elsewhere.

 

[Jet]

I think it would be better to wait to take out Korea until after you have gunpowder units.

His gunpowder units won't be any better than his units now.

 

[ratrangerm]

The Apo-freakin-stolic Palace

Hammurabi discovered Theology and traded it to De Gaulle and Washington. He's the only one of the three at peace, so there's a 92.713% chance he'll build & control it.

Since he's in love with everybody, I'd expect a lot of "stop the war" votes in the future.

I'm not sure what that means for planning, though, because I'm terrible at dealing with the AP, but there it is.

That's something I was thinking about as well. With all the world Muslim, and Hammurabi apparently loved by all, if he builds the AP, there's a good chance he could steal a Diplomatic victory.

Stopping wars against "brothers and sisters of the faith" may be less of a problem, given that DeGaulle and Peter don't like Washington, so they would surely vote no. But that Diplomatic victory condition could be a bigger problem.

So I would start spreading the other religions Sis founded to the neighbors. Peter may be the best option, given that he is right near Sis. You could try doing it to Washington as well before warring with him.

If Hammy does build the AP, you then need to hope that you have enough votes to ensure that you go in as the AP resident. If not, then you have a tough decision ahead of you.

 

[Artichoker]

Looks like a very strong position, thanks to the results of a very well-played round.

The invasion of HC was a complete success. Washington definitely looks like the better target for the next war. Compared to Wang Kon, the lack of free CG1/Drill 1 makes taking the cities much easier.

 

[Artichoker]

His gunpowder units won't be any better than his units now.

Better yet, wait until Tanks are available before attacking Wang Kon.

After conquering Washington, Wang Kon will turtle up and tech comparatively slowly because of his small amount of land.

The addition of American lands will result in a faster tech rate than Wang Kon, and Tanks can be used decisively against Wang Kon.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

EDIT: Sorry ... double-post.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

That's something I was thinking about as well. With all the world Muslim, and Hammurabi apparently loved by all, if he builds the AP, there's a good chance he could steal a Diplomatic victory.

Holy crap! You're Right!

Wouldn't that be the worst ending to an ALC ever?

 

[Sisiutil]

Holy crap! You're Right!

Wouldn't that be the worst ending to an ALC ever?

But... funny!

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

AP might have been a BIG hassle if like you had no cities or only one city with AP religion.

But since pretty much all your cities have ap religion and you have a pretty big population all by yourself then AP might not be THAT big a problem if you move quick enough.

Vassals will automatically vote the party line. At least on diplomatic victory votes and MAYBE even AP president votes or leader whatever the title is of whoever gets to pick what gets voted on and if thats case vassalizing washington and wang chung and then making sure ALL of their cities have Islam could give you big enough block of votes to at least stop another civ from getting ap victory and maybe even outright control the ap so you can decide what if anything gets voted on.

But that is dependent on vassalizing them as quick as you can and I have no idea about washington or wang but some leaders seem more ready to capitulate than others. For some leaders it seems like if you just go in and pillage a road or something they ready to go face down faster than Britney Spears at an open bar in which case vassalizing may be quickest way to go if you feel you need to hurry up and get more votes before an actual election comes up but other leaders it seems like you can take every city they have until you have 3 stacks of doom marching on their last city and they STILL wont roll over. And if Washington or Wang are one of the stubborn ones or even worse captiulate to someone else then it could be a headache. BH's patch makes it less likely they will vassalize to someone else but it's JUST less likely not 100% guarantee.

Another thing you can do is try and dilute Hammys and and any other big contender's votes. A civ's AP votes is based on mainly on amount of population that is the ap religion so if like a city only has islam it's 100% of that city's population counts towards the civs total islamic population but if it has another religon in that city then it's only 50% islam and if it has 2 others then only 33% and so on. Now I dont know for sure if that is EXACTLY how the math works but I am pretty sure it is SOMEthing like that so sending in as may differnt types of missionaries as you can to as many of their cities as you can will dilute their votes.

By same token keeping as many cities as you can pure 100% islam will get you more votes. It might even be worth keeping Islamic missonaries with your attack stacks to convert any non islam city you keep asap to get you as many votes as you can. It also might be a factor in deciding on which cities to go after first. Any islam city you take not only means more votes for you but ALSO less for them. So if you feel your racing the clock to take as much as you can before a "stop the war between religious borthers" vote comes up they might be your first targets. Taking non islamic cities wont affect votes at all I dont think unless you send in a misionary as soon as you can so it will give you more votes.

Another thing you can do is try your best to get other ap member civs to convert to non ap religion. That will turn em from full members to voting members and voting members only get half of the votes they would get if they were full members. This only works for full members who dont control the city that has the ap though. At least I THINK any civ that controls city that has AP is ALWAYS a full member no matter what state religion they run.

Last resort of all is to just look and see if AP city is near a border you can get to and lightly defended and then raise it if you have to. It might tick off a few civs but your playing shaka not ghandi so they are not supposed to like you anyways hehe.

Also fyi if you think AP wins are cheesey and want to avoid getting them in BtS diplo victory WONT come if your civ has enough votes all by yourself to win. The change list said it wont if your "team" has enough and I always thought vassals count as a team but they dont so if just you by yourslef cant do it BUT you AND your vassals do then you can. I found THAT out one game where that vote came up and I thought ok since it came up I cant win so I will call vote vote for myself just for fun but then with my votes and my vassals I won hehe.

And in another game I found this out. Again diplo vote came up and I thought ok it came up and I DONT have any vassals and only two civs left and they both hate me but dont have anywhere NEAR enough votes to win so I will just call it and vote for myself for fun. Turns out votes needed to win was 435 and I had 435 votes all by myself so I accidentally won again hehe. It seems, unlike in "your team" part which to me is kinda misleading, in this case it means exactly what it says. If you have MORE votes than needed it wont come up but if you have EXACTLY the number of votes needed it still will hehe.

Kaytie

 

[Scarredroman]

Washington's pleased with you, so might respond favourably if you asked him if he could spare some gold. If he gives yousome, you'll have 10 turns of not being asked to join a war. You'll getthe -1 you traded with our worst enemy, but that'll disappear whereas a penalty or refusing to fight is permanent.
Washington has the Chicken Pizza which makes taking his cities more difficult.

That +25% is three unpromoted trebs or 4 unpromoted cats and you can do a lot hurling 4 cats against Wang Kon and his protected longbows. Beuing proctective Wang won'rt have as many units inside his cities. Wang Kon's cities look as though they are better positioned than Washington. Let's face it Washington will still be there and his culture exerts less pressure on your cities than Wang Kon.

I'm assuming HC used a GP to build the Confucian Holy Building. Sending a confucian missionary to each of your neighbours might encourage them to build other missionaries and rack up the shrine income. When you're Shaka, gold means units.

The stop the war votes will come in handy when you're fighting Peter. He's got Islamic cities , so he'll have to abide by the AP votes or get dogpiled. Time it so the votes will come after you've grabbed some cities and then vote to end the war before his SoD mauls you. I'm assuming you'll hold off on Peter until he's switched to Confused and you've swallowed Wang Kon and Washington. The rate you're teching, you might have tanks by then.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I feel Kwon Wang, should be your next victim, as he seems to only have spears and bow's as defence, not going for the heavy military units as Peter, DeGaul and Washington are.

As well, he has 4 Christian cities with Capital Seoul and Pyonang No's 1 and 2 being the only Islamic cities.

Peter, Has Moscow with his top 4 being his only Islamic cities, and considering his favourate civic is Beauracarcy, you'll need to convert Moscow to 2nd religion as well....

Personally I'd convert Thracian to Confussionism build a Monastry for conf, and spam Conf Missionaries out of there, to peters lands, gift them, send them do what you have to do...but spam them there.

Kwon Is set up for Christianity, but you have NO CHRISTIAN CITIES...so bad luck.

maybe bribe Peter or Degaul into war with Kwan won. Get him to use up those Hywa's...most of those horse archers, he's spammed.....then come inbehind once asked by civ you bribed..or just come in anyway after 5 turns.

Take out the 2 Islamic cities, being No's 1 and 2, he'll switch to Chirstianity, and be the next Pariah..Along with Washington, who only really has the "this war spoils our relationship -6" demerit.

Both DeGaul and Peter have a + 4/5 "we care for brothers of the faith"..DeGaul will be Neutral at best Peter being +1 AFTER peace is declared.

1) Convert Peter to Confussionism.
2) Bribe Peter to war with Korea
3) Enter into war after 5 turns or so..

Note, Korea, can be bribed into war with Peter, but for a high Price..Others will only make peace for Philosophy. Also, DeGaul has a SOD on the way to Washington, complete with Ele's/cat's

 

[Daedal]

Waiting for gunpowder units to DoW Wang Kon is too long a wait, protective or not. CR2 maces + cats/trebs > protective longbows.

Don't worry about DeGaul's SoD enroute to Washington. Whoever takes Washington's land is only going to be shooting their own foot off with useless land or a useless vassal.

 

[Kev]

Interesting times.

First, what happened to the Jewish Holy City? Guess it was razed somewhere.

Anyway, a few thoughts in comparing a bid against Korea vs. America:

Right now, no one loves us more than Korea, but Wang Kon (somewhat surprisingly) seems to be lagging in techs. He does not have Machinery yet (no crossbows) nor Civil Service (no macemen). Perhaps he might pick up in techs as he progresses, but it also seems that he got a bit blocked out land-wise and just does not have enough to really leverage his traits. He even has one city completely surrounded by Peter. This probably makes me lean toward Wang as a next target - especially if we can find a way to deny iron at some point once he does get Machinery/CS. Being nice to him may not net us the techs in trade we are hoping for.

Right now we have the most espionage points with Wang - nearly double what we have with Washington. Seems he won't be providing us with techs, so these points can certainly be used by our spies for revolts/pillaging and the like. Could neutralize the protective trait if we can hack the cultural protection with a spy and use our siege to bring the defenders to a lower health. Again, this makes me lean toward Wang to attack first.

With diplomacy, the wiser move would probably favor going after Washington - only because he's already been fighting. Renewing trade with him could alter things negatively elsewhere and we may be asked to join into a war as well. Still, although Wang seems to like us best, it does not mean we can't change the dynamic across the board - especially since there are a number of Wang's cities with alternate religions.

As a matter of time frame, we could probably make quicker work of Washington as he'll be battered by other opponents. Capture the Chitzen Itza and things would be even easier. While Wang won't have crossbows/macemen immediately, he does have elephants, horse archers and protective longbows at his disposal.

As far as land, I cannot see the resources in Wang's part of the world, but I will go by what others have said and assume that Wang's land is better than Washington's. That being said, Washington still does have some nice resources, and looks like a few wonders as well (Hagia, Chitzen, possibly others I don't know). Still, would have to give an edge to Wang on this one. Also, taking Korea would allow us to get closer to Babylon in case we decide that they might make an interesting target at some point (love to have the Islamic Holy City and, it would be most likely, the AP).

Overall, I would seriously consider a strike against Korea. If we can do something quickly, we may face pretty limited resistance and with nearby civs already involved it likely won't mean any of them coming to their aid. Still, there are wiser players than I, and they can better address the diplomatic ramifications as that is definitely my weak point.

 

[LlamaCat]

Also fyi if you think AP wins are cheesey and want to avoid getting them in BtS diplo victory WONT come if your civ has enough votes all by yourself to win. The change list said it wont if your "team" has enough and I always thought vassals count as a team but they dont so if just you by yourslef cant do it BUT you AND your vassals do then you can. I found THAT out one game where that vote came up and I thought ok since it came up I cant win so I will call vote vote for myself just for fun but then with my votes and my vassals I won hehe.

interesting to learn, but I think it makes sense that vassals are not considered part of your team... team is a permanent alliance I guess? vassals require at least some skill in acquiring, either by force or freeing a colony, so their votes in the AP should count in your victory. Vassals can break away from you later (and frequently they do that in games) and are not considered as having "given up" for the game.

the thing about vassals is they don't have to like you, and having someone capitulate generally means they don't like you and so why would they vote for you in the AP? I don't think it's as simple as assuming any of your vassals will be on your side for AP victories.

 

[Morgawr]

You don't have anything to worry about re: the AP. On the contrary, from the glance screen I can see that you're more popular than Hammy. If Hammy builds it soon, Wan Kong will vote for you, De Gaulle will abstain, and even Peter might vote for you because both him & De Gaulle have some substantial invisible negative attitude modifiers towards Hammy. Washington will vote for Hammy - so attack & vassalize him and you can even pull of an AP victory. I know that's not what you're going for though so my point is, you're in a good position from AP standpoint and don't worry about it.

 

[cabert]

I think it should be pretty easy to get an AP victory...
1) let hammurabi build the AP
2) grow! (including the big muslim cities all around would be the fastest way to do so)
3) spread islam.
4) be kind to your neighbours (at least those that you can get to vote for you, kill the others).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ That does sound like a Plan

Diplomatic Victory with Shaka and the Southern Jihad
Looks like it is Death to America

 

[ratrangerm]

I should ask one question, since I don't have the patch that would allow me to open Sisiutil's saved game.

Is Sis in the top two in terms of population? If so, then yes, he could sneak into the AP picture. If not, then...

With that being said, Sis did mention possibly researching Theology for a bit once he finishes Guilds. Is it absolutely necssary Sis get Theology? I doubt he'd be able to build the AP before anyone else (and besides, he said he's not going after Wonders), and I don't think Theology leads to anything that's absolutely necessary.

I would just forget about Theology and keep an eye on what the AI does, to see what techs it acquires that would be more desirable.

 

[Abegweit]

As long as you manage your empire well, you shouldn't need another war after that to win the game. Being Shaka, you might want another war, but I'd much rather fight a Civ IV war because I want to than because I have to.

This is Shaka. A game won without war is not won at all. The objective is total conquest. So you have to war. And you know you want to.