ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

[Sisiutil]

I think the temple of artemis makes great merchant points, so louis' pool will be diluted. you can always hope for the shrine though.

Doesn't the T of A also give you a free priest specialist? So if it's in the same city as the Oracle, the GP points should be weighted towards a Great Prophet. Of course, the RNG often gets perverse and gives me the lowest-chance Great Person, so maybe Louis will get that too...

 

[Sisiutil]

With the Madrassa to access priests specialists, wouldn't an option to pursue a late religion have been the safer bet, using a Great Prophet to bulb something like Theology? If some other Civ on the continent gets a religion for you, so much the better.

Later religions often run into the same problem: the AI already has a religion, has adopted it, spread it, and everyone else is running it.

I'm beginning to think it makes more sense, on Emperor and above, to forgo founding a spreading a religion yourself.

 

[vicawoo]

So what? It should go without saying that you'd bring your own axes too.

Fortified axes are much harder to break than archers. Your swords become useless until they all die. If you can't win quickly and decisively, the AI's greater land and production will eventually drive you back with its own axe production.

Early religion, you probably won't have the hammers to spread it for $ without costing yourself a city. It's most efficient if you can spread it to the enemy capitals and get them to spread it on their own. On larger maps, it's probably ok since there's less chance of nearby competition. If you have a long windy river or chance upon sailing early, maybe you could beeline writing.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I think that's what I was asking. If you've got options for Great Prophets, it seems to make more sense to wait and see whether you need a religion rather than gunning for one out of the chute.

 

[patagonia]

Later religions often run into the same problem: the AI already has a religion, has adopted it, spread it, and everyone else is running it.

I'm beginning to think it makes more sense, on Emperor and above, to forgo founding a spreading a religion yourself.

I'm inclined to agree unless you're isolated or want to keep the AP out of AI hands, in which case bulbing Theology and building it yourself, swapping temporarily into "Christianity" the turn before you complete the wonder, can be beneficial. This keeps the AP religion as one none of the AIs has, protecting you from being victim of an AP win and giving you a monopoly on the hammer bonus. You can swap back to your original state religion afterwards to avoid any diplo penalty.

As a tactic, a theology bulb may be worth pursuing in this game mainly to unlock the theocracy civic for extra XPs, rather than for the AP. Getting that extra promotion on your swords/cats will make any war against Louis go that much more quickly. If you can HR your happy cap enough to run the full 4 specialists in Damascus (5 if you build a temple there, which I think means size 8 with a lighthouse) you'll get a prophet/scientist pretty quickly, both of which have their uses.

If you can do the cow/gem trade with Sulieman that Sleepless suggested, that'd be a help too, since you need happy more than health for the foreseeable future.

And finally:
Something to bear in mind for the future is that Sulieman will have started to settle those islands by the time you're ready to deal with him, which means you'll either want to capitulate him or waste a lot of time conquering largely junk cities. If you want him to be a useful vassal, keep what he's built on the mainland rather than razing it and try to keep the number of war declarations to a minimum.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

And finally:
Something to bear in mind for the future is that Sulieman will have started to settle those islands by the time you're ready to deal with him, which means you'll either want to capitulate him or waste a lot of time conquering largely junk cities. If you want him to be a useful vassal, keep what he's built on the mainland rather than razing it and try to keep the number of war declarations to a minimum.

Why would you want him to be a useful vassal...let his function be to worry about protecting the useless islands (although those Islands allow you to have domestic overseas trade so they are not totally useless)

 

[johnny_rico]

Doesn't the T of A also give you a free priest specialist? So if it's in the same city as the Oracle, the GP points should be weighted towards a Great Prophet. Of course, the RNG often gets perverse and gives me the lowest-chance Great Person, so maybe Louis will get that too...

Indeed, I forgot about that part. So the GPP balance should be swayed towards a prophet.

If Louis does generate a great prophet, I'm guessing (though I don't know the code) that the more cities possessing the target religion (confucianism in your case), the more likely the AI will be to build a shrine vs. settling. Perhpas the AI just builds a shrine by default when receiving a great prophet.

 

[TM Moot]

Was it really worth going for? What would have been the point? Were we still going to take all of the French cities, including the Holy City? Wouldn't a shrine there ultimately serve as well? We've converted to Confucianism in order to maintain good relations -- the same thing that would have happened if we had somehow spread Islam to both those Civs. Madrassas allow for later religions through Great Prophets anyway.

About the only benefit I can see is that Suleiman and Louis don't have opposing state religions, so we won't get hit with "Do X with other Civ" demands. What else is there?

As a Monarch player, I find it useful to grab an early religion, though only if I start with Mysticism. I guess it is trickier at Emperor, but I still reckon it was worth a punt (can't remember, but didn't the tech also take us towards the UB?).

 

[Sisiutil]

As a Monarch player, I find it useful to grab an early religion, though only if I start with Mysticism. I guess it is trickier at Emperor, but I still reckon it was worth a punt (can't remember, but didn't the tech also take us towards the UB?).

Not really. Polytheism isn't required for Writing, but it will help with Literature later on.

On a related note, I may be giving the Great Library a miss in this game despite the presence of marble. There are just too many other tech priorities (Monarchy, Math, Construction, Currency, Code of Laws, Calendar); I don't think I can sneak the very expensive Aesthetics and then Literature in there in time to get the GL built.

Back to early religion: while founding religion has proved to be a non-starter in this game, I think this is a good lesson for future ALCs, and for players on the highest difficulty levels. We're seeing how fruitless it can be to found an early religion on Emperor. So if I move up to Immortal as planned, it will probably be even less optimal. And while I think I can recover from that detour in this game, I think on the next level up it could prove deadly. I've always maintained that when you move up a difficulty level you have to give up a few of the mini-victories you're used to winning, like early wonders. It appears as though founding an early religion may have to join that list.

 

[Jet]

Your second question is a little more important -

Catapults are, in so many ways, easier to obtain and are also more reliable. Besides, I still have room to expand, which means there's time to tech to Construction. What's your hurry?

You said you wanted to do a sword-era strike to cripple him. That could mean different things. The option I chose to talk about was trimming him back, by which I mean taking just his capital and holy city, give or take. If I wanted more cities, I too would wait for Cats.

My hurry is that everything is better earlier because of AI bonuses. For example, if you have Cats he'll have Longbows, and the ratio of his total production to yours will be higher. Correspondingly, when you acquire an ability which can advance your goals it's good to use it in a burst, while the advantage is hot.

You think so?

If you're asking about what I said literally - that it would be faster - sure, I definitely think it would be faster. It's two techs earlier.

Everyone tells me that, and in every game where I've tried it, the EPs required for an early city revolt have been mind-bogglingly high. ... Great Spy ...

Yeah, it is high. The base is fixed at 500 per city, affected by stationary/distance/culture/religion modifiers.

- - -

I'll start a thread in case anyone wants to do a comparative shadow of the next turnset with me. I'll shut off research, take the capital and holy city ASAP with Swords and Spies, then post the save along with notes about EP costs. Anyone else can try any other tactic. It will be somewhat apples to oranges, but I see it as a friendly, informative comparison rather than a death match.

 

[Jet]

Was it really worth going for? What would have been the point? Were we still going to take all of the French cities, including the Holy City? Wouldn't a shrine there ultimately serve as well?

You were replying to a claim that it was a reasonable decision. What you said here is not a fair way to ask your question, since the specific information you referred to was not available on turn 1 when Sisiutil made the decision.

 

[Sisiutil]

So Jet, correct me if I'm wrong: you're suggesting turning off research for several turns while building EPs against France. I build Swordsmen to capture a couple of cities, along with some Spies, of course. I then attack Louis with that mix: Spies, Swords, and maybe an Axe and Spear or two for protection. The Spies are used to put the cities into revolt, removing their cultural protection for the turn when my units attack. Once I take a couple of his cities, I stop, make peace, and wait for Cats before finishing him off.

I just might try that out. If some of you haven't noticed already, I'm feeling relatively confident at Emperor level now, so I'm willing to experiment.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

It is expensive early on though, and spies like to get caught alot I find. Better in the middle ages or later I find when you have EPs to play with.

EDIT: Best case scenario is half the cost listed in the EP screen, when your spy has been stationary for 5 turns. I bet that will still be 200+ EPs, and spies are likely to get caught unless you have a lot of them in reserve.

 

[pigswill]

Early religion involves a couple of gambles. They are gambles because you start on turn one without knowing which AIs are around. The first gamble is that you get the religion you're going for. The second gamble is that the second and third religion are founded on the other continent.

If you've got the only early religion on your continent then there's a chance it will spread and get adopted by the local AIs giving you a happy and friendly co-religionist sphere while the other continent is reft by religious wars.

On the other hand if the other early religion(s) are founded in your continent then you have messy diplomacy and you're behind on your worker techs and early growth.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, that's the nature of a gamble.

 

[Jet]

So Jet, correct me if I'm wrong: you're suggesting turning off research for several turns while building EPs against France. I build Swordsmen to capture a couple of cities, along with some Spies, of course. I then attack Louis with that mix: Spies, Swords, and maybe an Axe and Spear or two for protection. The Spies are used to put the cities into revolt, removing their cultural protection for the turn when my units attack. Once I take a couple of his cities, I stop, make peace, and wait for Cats before finishing him off.

Yeah, pretty much.

I was thinking specifically of his capital and the holy city, rather than any old couple of cities. If you had to fight through border cities, or if the holy city wasn't the one for the dominant religion on the continent, or even if you didn't have the Madrassa for the shrine, the argument for doing it would be weaker.

Personally I might go something like 2:1 Swords:Axes and no Spears, since that's good enough against Chariots and even Horse Archers, whereas a mix of defending Axes and Archers is indeed hard to crack with a melee army.

 

[d.a.oconnell]

After watching madscientist's recent game "Chairman Mao's Plan", I have seen the light in espionage. In a recent game as Ragnar, I attacked Julius Ceasar's fortified praet's and archers with axeman, spies, and 1 catapult. They were on a hill too. With a city revolt and 1 collateral attack, I took about 3 praets, 2 archers, and 1 axeman for the cost of about 2-3 axemen.

On another note, I have a strategy question for anyone reading. Do you guys give your catapults/any siege the collateral damage experience point or the city attack bonus? I've been seeing that some people give their siege weapons city attack to hopefully last through a collateral attack. I've always used the collateral upgrades, and have tried the city attack approach but my siege weapons still died. Any comments?

 

[Jet]

Early religion involves a couple of gambles...

Good summary. It's also worth noting that the Madrassa makes an early shrine easier, which is useful for the spread bonus when cities are still being settled with no religion. (Not that using your first prophet for Theocracy or the AP might not still be better sometimes, but..)

 

[ParadigmShifter]

After watching madscientist's recent game "Chairman Mao's Plan", I have seen the light in espionage. In a recent game as Ragnar, I attacked Julius Ceasar's fortified praet's and archers with axeman, spies, and 1 catapult. They were on a hill too. With a city revolt and 1 collateral attack, I took about 3 praets, 2 archers, and 1 axeman for the cost of about 2-3 axemen.

On another note, I have a strategy question for anyone reading. Do you guys give your catapults/any siege the collateral damage experience point or the city attack bonus? I've been seeing that some people give their siege weapons city attack to hopefully last through a collateral attack. I've always used the collateral upgrades, and have tried the city attack approach but my siege weapons still died. Any comments?

In BtS I've been giving my cats CR1/barrage plus accuracy promos, you need alot to take down walls otherwise. In warlords it was CR2 or barrage for noobs.

 

[ace94d]

Maybe it's just me, but I would really like to voice my discontent on where you placed Damarcus.

IMO, you pretty much just wasted half the city with that overlap.

Unless you have Mecca only work about half it's tiles, some subpar, Damarcus will NOT get those tiles. At best, it will mature some cottages.

You're losing 1-2 Specialists when you hit Civil Service for irrigation from the overlap, and if we make it too Biology, 3-4, maybe even FIVE, specialists.

In addition, assuming that you went to maximum population for some reason, you're losing all the overlap tiles and therefor, production/commerce.

If you had moved it one to the right, it lacks the HORRIBLE overlap with Mecca, to a more managable level.

It would of gotten the above specialists lost with the overlap, would of avoided stunted maximum population and, while lacking the initial +1 Hammer for Plains Hill founding, would of gotten the Plains Hill mine, instead. Or even a Windmill for food/commerce.

The only real bonus to settling on the hill, that I can see, is 25% defense and a quick boost to +1 hammer.

Sorry for posting so much on that city placement, but it just seems like a really move.

 

[slaze]

Maybe it's just me, but I would really like to voice my discontent on where you placed Damarcus.

I would like to voice my content on how brilliantly Damascus is placed. The non-overlapping fat crosses that noobs love to put down may be a late game wet dream, but there's plenty yet to be played out until then. Exactly what's gained from going right, more water tiles? Placed how it is, it can work the mine if needed and it fills out all the land over down the peninsula anyway. It has so much food it won't be working many tiles to begin with as working the food alone spills into 6 specialists. And Mecca will be far from 20 pop as they both grow so it can afford to lend Damascus some farms if Damascus needs faster growth.

But the best reason why overlap is good (and this especially pertains to Saladin as a Protective leader) is drafting. While Mecca and Damascus draft away, the coast tiles worked by Damascus can shift over and work Mecca's cottages, allowing for continued use of these high value tiles when otherwise they would be left unworked. This is far too much micromanagement for the average noob but it's stategy like this which will help you through the higher levels.

The placement of cities is dictated by food, especially for a drafting/whipping empire. For this reason I would advocate two more cities (eventually) overlapping with Damascus' pig to the north and with its wheat to the SW. This sort of overlap will net you the most units to make it to the end game, if you are willing to put in the micromanagement and swap tiles liberally, using these swaps to give cities the collection of food tiles that allow them to hit pop growths exactly. In a unit run game, this is optimum play.