ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

[OTAKUjbski]

...

I printed and framed that.

 

[CivCorpse]

Move the settler 2 NE

 

[Peachrocks]

Well the AI blows hammers on missionaries if they have the holy city usually, you were kinda doomed from the start, you just couldn't invest the beakers nor the hammers into missionaries, its one of the many reasons why the AI needs so many advantages.

Louis now has access to Forges since the Oracle and he is probably producing a good deal faster than most, I would seriously do some crippling to him with cat/axe/sword and keep bothering him until he is willing to trade Metal casting for peace, then finish the job later or go after Suleiman.

Even if you declare on Louis you can probably keep relations decent afterwards provided you don't raze many cities as you've got a good amount of relations buff from wisely chosen civic and same religion.

 

[vicawoo]

So I don't know enough about espionage to comment too much on this sword attack idea. How many espionage points are we talking about per city? How much can you make a turn, and remember you still need the gold slider.

I do know what this early attack will entail. You would not be able to expand anymore. All cities that will be targets will be at 40%, perhaps 60% if you're trying to get enough troops to overcome his axes. If your attack fails (many spy failures), you might lose the game, since he's taken your land and you've stopped expanding. If he's massing wonders in lieu of troops and espionage is cheap, then you might be able to sweep through.

I can say longbowmen not on hills are not that scary to catapults, and you can get an empire comparable to his if you grab western land. Then again, I don't know how dangerous horse archer flanking is to catapults.

 

[oldsaxon]

re: early religions-

The bigger the map (and the more land-masses you expect), the more desirable an early religion. This map is only 6 AI on 2 continents, so realisticly your continent was always going to get a religion. If it had been 16AI on 6 continents, then the need could have been a lot more pressing.

 

[Peachrocks]

re: early religions-

The bigger the map (and the more land-masses you expect), the more desirable an early religion. This map is only 6 AI on 2 continents, so realisticly your continent was always going to get a religion. If it had been 16AI on 6 continents, then the need could have been a lot more pressing.

By logic and odds yes, but its very possible that the Ai could have spawned Gandhi and Isabella on the other side of the world and got all three early religions and so on, I have definately had games where I've failed to get a religion on a 4 civ land mass out of 7 civs and it could have happened here as neither Louis or Suleiman start with Mysticism. If it werent Louis and his will for a religion and it was say Napoleon or De Gaulle, its certain Islam would have dominated that continent with little effort on Sisiutils part.

Isabella may very well be there because it was Meditation the tech that was discovered and Issy generally goes for that instead of Polytheism, but its possible it could be Justinian or Charlemange there too. Well its almost certain that its a European civ that starts with Mysticism . Sometimes Aztec or Inca go and found Christianity at random (as they I think choose randomly).

 

[Sleepless]

@ Sisiutil

Still playing my shadow game (very slowly as I don't want to go past you)going for the religions. I still wish you had taken this route . Have played the same turns in a variety of ways to see a quick route to Theo. Made a couple of elementary errors in tech routes First time I forgot you need writing for Theo so ended up taking Monarchy from Oracle and first priest to bulb Theo came in 875BC. I also thought you needed Med for Theo. You do if you bulb it but not from the Oracle as I've just found out. Pretty certain a priest would bulb Med first?

The Monarchy start is probably the best as I have a couple of cities and most of the early techs.

The one I will play on from though I got Theo in 1575/1525 from the Oracle at the expense of techs and cities. Total 1 city and 3 warriors certainly not something I think you should risk in an ALC game (probably end very quickly). Plus side Mecca has already had 3 border pops so doing a great job of fogbusting on its own so no problem with barbs just have to worry about Louis .

Looking forward to the next round

 

[Nares]

Pretty certain a priest would bulb Med first?

Bulbing it would require Mysticism, Masonry, Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood and Monotheism. Writing is also needed to unlock the tech.

We still need to expand. I take it the multi-week break from CIV left Sis a little out of practice. Reading back through the second Isabella game, I notice a similar strategy, but one that was executed with much greater precision.

We've wasted tons of worker turns on "useless" tile improvements, we've been working unimproved tiles for centuries, and we're still looking at centuries more of expansion/improvement before we're ready to expand into Louis' territory.

Maybe the slow start is intentional? Maybe not. Even since the Polytheism gambit, things have been going slow. Perhaps all this talk of non-immediate goals has thrown Sis off?

While I'm not overly responsive to settling Damascus where you did, the one positive is that you'll finally put a mine on the second riverside plains hill in Mecca's BFC. I didn't investigate the end-round world shots, but I'm assuming that the unimproved flood plains that Mecca is working have been cottaged.

There are still three city sites we need to settle soon. I'm surprised you're taking expansion so slowly. Get moving, because as of now Louis and Suleiman are ahead and pulling away, and I don't think any amount of Great People that we can generate at this point will make a difference.

Skip Madrassas for now, outside of the two GP cities along the SE coast. Need more workers, more cities, and more troops. Gogo.

 

[Jet]

Never mind.

 

[Bandobras Took]

You were replying to a claim that it was a reasonable decision. What you said here is not a fair way to ask your question, since the specific information you referred to was not available on turn 1 when Sisiutil made the decision.

I'll ask the question another way. If we can guarantee a Great Prophet through a Madrassa, then is their any particular advantage to going for an early religion that is not comprised in adopting a "wait-and-see" approach and taking a mid-late religion if necessary?

 

[Nares]

If we can guarantee a Great Prophet through a Madrassa, then is there any particular advantage to going for an early religion that is not comprised in adopting a "wait-and-see" approach and taking a mid-late religion if necessary?

Well put.01

 

[Calder]

On the early religion topic, I think seeing Louis sitting there with Marble, it was always going to be a no show for Oracle/Code of Laws, and there is no guarantee on this level and above that you will be the first to Theology. Taking the early religion gambit in this case I can symphasise with, at least its one less religion someone is getting elsewhere with the risk of them using it with the AP, especially on another continent.
As for early expansion, I'm against any early wars in this situation. Priority now should be concentrating on getting strong productive cities through Forges/AP/Organised Religion. War can wait till you have the production to build a large combination of Macemen/Camel Archers/Catapults. Then let loose on you continent the greatest pre-gunpowder Arabian war machine ever witnessed!

 

[Daedal]

I reread the first 3 updates done so far and it's reminding me of my own offline play. No huge glaring mistakes, just a couple of missed opportunities and some suboptimal diversions. So let's focus and prioritize.

The first big hurdle in this game is going to be destroying and assimilating Louis. Medina ought to go on full-time axe duty. Damascus can build some settlers and workers to fill out the available space on the continent. The capitol should stay on GP duty for now IMO. Once the continent is filled, tiles are improved, and a good number of axes are built, you'll hopefully have catapults available. Build a big stack of those.

I'd also suggest bringing along some spies. Divert EPs toward Louis now and use spies later to take down defenses. Use catapults to wear down individual units. I think attacking this way you'll need fewer hammers invested overall, and you don't have many hammers to spare now. Take as many cities as you feel is right, sue for peace, then we can regroup.

 

[d.a.oconnell]

I second that. What I've learned in civ is that you must learn to hate your closest neighbors. You must kill Loius - I'm not sure why people want to go to war with Sully... he's too far. I've done those kind of wars before where you cross through a civ's borders and war, but in the end the maintenance is no good. You have to attack your closest neighbor first.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I second that. What I've learned in civ is that you must learn to hate your closest neighbors.

Slightly off-topic, but in my current game as Louis, I've been loving my neighbors so they won't declare war on me as I culturally assimilate their cities.

The inverse of this is watch out if you let Louis get the Sistine Chapel. His cultural pressure will skyrocket and put a crimp in things.

 

[Artichoker]

I second that. What I've learned in civ is that you must learn to hate your closest neighbors. You must kill Loius - I'm not sure why people want to go to war with Sully... he's too far. I've done those kind of wars before where you cross through a civ's borders and war, but in the end the maintenance is no good. You have to attack your closest neighbor first.

The timing of that first attack is crucial. Ideally, it should happen after Louis builds a key wonder.

Having Paris next to the border is mostly good, but partly bad.

The good is that it becomes very easy to cripple Louis in a few turns with a strong enough attack.

The bad is that he could be in the middle of building a wonder. Of course, sometimes you can't have everything your way...

 

[JTMacc99]

I'd also suggest bringing along some spies. Divert EPs toward Louis now and use spies later to take down defenses. Use catapults to wear down individual units. I think attacking this way you'll need fewer hammers invested overall, and you don't have many hammers to spare now. Take as many cities as you feel is right, sue for peace, then we can regroup.

Would the amount of EPs generated be enough to send more than one city into revolt at this point in this game? If so, it sounds like a really good idea as long as we back it up with catapults to smack around the longbows on the same turn.

On the other hand, it diverts the EPs away from target #2 for a long time. I can make an argument that by the time we're done with the cheese eating surrender monkeys, having a whole bunch of EPs to use against Sully will be very useful and very necessary.

 

[patagonia]

Would the amount of EPs generated be enough to send more than one city into revolt at this point in this game? If so, it sounds like a really good idea as long as we back it up with catapults to smack around the longbows on the same turn.

On the other hand, it diverts the EPs away from target #2 for a long time. I can make an argument that by the time we're done with the cheese eating surrender monkeys, having a whole bunch of EPs to use against Sully will be very useful and very necessary.

If the plan's to attack Louis and leave Sully until later, then there's little point investing more EPs into France than are needed to make running counterespionage missions viable.

Pre CoL, you produce 4EP/turn from the palace. It'd take around 500 to revolt a city, which is 125 turns unless you crank the slider into espionage. Cats will come earlier and be more useful, allowing you to divert EPs to the Turks and get an early lead on them in that regard. No use wasting them on Louis now if he'll be gone before you see any benefit.

 

[slaze]

We still need to expand. I take it the multi-week break from CIV left Sis a little out of practice. Reading back through the second Isabella game, I notice a similar strategy, but one that was executed with much greater precision.

We've wasted tons of worker turns on "useless" tile improvements, we've been working unimproved tiles for centuries, and we're still looking at centuries more of expansion/improvement before we're ready to expand into Louis' territory.

Maybe the slow start is intentional? Maybe not. Even since the Polytheism gambit, things have been going slow. Perhaps all this talk of non-immediate goals has thrown Sis off?

I agree with all of this. Sisiutil should probably go back and read the snaaty thread. It's a shame the by now the ALCs don't employ that superior strategy. Instead of rushing Louis I vote for rushing the surrounding land with an army of workers and settlers.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I just looked at the Snaaty thread. It's not superior strategy so much as it is general strategy. If ever you get to a difficulty level where you have to play the exact same way every single time, you've got to drop back down a difficulty level, IMO. I like these ALCs precisely because they attempt to adapt based on the leader.