ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
The opinion of a lower-than-emperor CIV player:
Given almost everyone agrees in settling in place and moving warrior 1NW, I'd vote for POLY-AGRI-AH and starting with warrior (a worker would have nothing special to do unless building roads with this path) and waiting maybe to build a worker until size 3 working 3 flood tiles and finishing the warrior at +- the same time. The possible early religion+temple means +2 happy cap which I think is important.
After whe worker, settler while (Mining<->Pottery)-BW-Priesthood-Writing-Monarchy. In my little experience, monarchy and HR is the key to grow fast, and this path is on the way to it. Besides, it could be possible if lucky to get The Oracle (too optimistic?), and monarchy is also on the way to feudalism and guilds and the UU.
This is not a long-term-strategy but, is it very unconsistent?
Given almost everyone agrees in settling in place and moving warrior 1NW, I'd vote for POLY-AGRI-AH and starting with warrior (a worker would have nothing special to do unless building roads with this path) and waiting maybe to build a worker until size 3 working 3 flood tiles and finishing the warrior at +- the same time. The possible early religion+temple means +2 happy cap which I think is important.
After whe worker, settler while (Mining<->Pottery)-BW-Priesthood-Writing-Monarchy. In my little experience, monarchy and HR is the key to grow fast, and this path is on the way to it. Besides, it could be possible if lucky to get The Oracle (too optimistic?), and monarchy is also on the way to feudalism and guilds and the UU.
This is not a long-term-strategy but, is it very unconsistent?
Shoot the Moon
Playing World in Conflict
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2005
- Messages
- 708
Please post the picture before a debate about the value of future techs compared to the ammount of cash buying you could do for the cost starts.
EDIT: Whoo! 500th post!
I noticed that six pages ago.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
Der Graf
Omnipresent Eye
It is, I'd never deny that. But we don't know if Izzy (or Huyana) is in the game (at least I don't know this
) so it may be worth a shot. If Sis decides going for early religion at all.I'm only a simple prince player, not an emperor. And for myself, I'm usually not going for an early religion.
But my experience is that the AI is really hot for Poly in BtS, which makes it much easier to beat them to Meditation (well, not so much, perhaps). In WL, I didn't even dare to try this
But that may depend greatly on the difficulty level.That's why I said "if early religion should be consensus".
I still recommend: screw early religion, Sis will get one (or two) anyway during the game.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Please post the picture before a debate about the value of future techs compared to the ammount of cash buying you could do for the cost starts.
EDIT: Whoo! 500th post!
That's so long ago I had already forgotten!
This is not my show, it's S man show
Obviously I won't do that without his permission ( that is what I'm expecting... Maybe S man is waiting for the tenth or eleventh page 
)
Bandobras Took
Emperor
Maybe he's trying a bunch of off-line games with Protective Leaders just so he can dazzle us all with his Protective leveraging abilities. 
OTAKUjbski
TK421
This is not my show, it's S man show
/nod
I started to but got scared of what S might say.
I couldn't even bring myself to do it as a "shadow" in a new thread!
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2625 BC (55 turns)
The Warrior climbed the hill but found nothing more enticing than a goody hut (not that I'm turning my nose up at that, but it wasn't going to affect where I was going to place the capital). So as we pretty much unanimously agreed, I settled in place:
Yeah, the new resolution may look a little strange to some of you. I'm afraid you'll just have to get used to it.
I decided to go for an early religion. What the heck, last game on Emperor with a Spiritual leader and all that. Let the dice fly high! I decided to go after Polytheism. I prefer it because it's on the path to Literature for the Great Library, Heroic Epic, and National Epic. My first build was a Warrior to grow the city to size 2 by working a flood plain for the extra food and the 1 commerce to help with research.
The goody hut popped for a tech. Not a spectacular one, nor one that was even remotely useful at the moment, but hey.
I did an about-face with the Warrior and marched him south because I thought there'd be desert to the north. Turns out there's desert to the southwest too. Arabia indeed. At any rate, I found another hut, which popped for gold.
My first neighbour also showed up.
Louis! I haven't seen him in an ALC in a long time--can't even remember if he's been in one other than the time I played as him. I usually don't get along with him when I encounter him in off-line games. As he's pretty close by, I suspect that may be the case again; turns out he's to my southwest, as you'll see.
Louis is also one of the few leaders I've encountered who will try to found an early religion even though he doesn't start with Mysticism.
Some could-be-bad news: someone else founded an early religion on the 14th turn.
I kept my fingers crossed and assumed that this was someone like Isabella researching the cheaper Meditation technology. I kept researching Polytheism. When Mecca grew to size 2, I worked the riverside cows for the hammer and the commerce. Once the Warrior was finished and off exploring, I built a Worker.
And did I found a religion? Of course I did!
It's a bit strange to be founding a decidedly monotheistic religion after researching Polytheism, but whatever. Saladin has his religion. I didn't adopt it as my state religion just yet. I want to see the diplomatic and military situation evolve before I commit myself. I would like to see an Islamic Arabic empire, however, so we may need to discuss how we're going to work towards that goal.
I then turned my attention to worker techs:
However, I haven't irrigated any floodplains. Mecca was growing just fine without that minor food boost.
Then, so I could pasture the cows and see if any horses were about:
Unfortunately, the only horses available thus far are uncomfortably close to French borders. It's a good thing the mounted Arabic UU doesn't require horses, but I doubt that I'll have any Chariots or Horse Archers in this game.
I met another neighbour, or at least his Scout; I still don't know exactly where this guy is yet...
It somehow seems appropriate to have the Ottomans as neighbours, though as I recall the Arabs and Turks didn't really get along. We'll see if history repeats itself or turns out differently in this game.
Has anyone else noticed how freakishly red Suleiman's eyes are? Creepy!
The next tech was researched to get those plains hill mines going, and of course it's on the way to our next two strategic resource-revealing techs, Bronze Working and Iron Working.
This is where I stopped, because I thought we should discuss what to research next, among other things.
Hunting -> Archery may be a good idea to get some defensive units going and to leverage the Protective trait. I haven't seen any barb military units yet, but they can't be far away. Too bad there's no campable resources to better justify the diversion through Hunting, but you can't have everything. Going this route may be safer at this point than taking a chance on Bronze Working, especially since my first crack at a strategic resource (horses) failed.
Here's a look at the map:
So there's no stone nearby--so much for that idea. If I want to build a lot of the "priest economy" wonders, I'll have to chop them. If I don't have stone and I'm not Industrious, going after them will be risky. There is marble, however, in a spot to my northwest that I'm confident I could settle in my first wave of expansion. So we could consider some of the marble-based wonders.
I suspect Louis will claim that silver mine unless I move quickly. I'm tempted to grab it with the first Settler, but I'm wondering if I should wait to see if I can claim copper instead. Then again, if I go Hunting/Archery, BW is a long ways off.
Aside from that, there's a good mix of happy/healthy resources: wheat and corn for grains; pigs, cows, and sheep for livestock; all three seafood resources; incense and silk for calendar; and a couple of additional items, silver and whales.
Louis has marble, and that could be a problem since he's Industrious. As I mentioned, he's also likely to snag the only nearby source of horses. I'm beginning to think he has to die. JIHAD!! As for Suleiman, I suspect he's off to the northwest somewhere--I mean, there aren't to many other possibilities.
So now we finally have some things to talk about beyond the wild speculation that seemed to take over this thread in the absence of the usual "where to settle" discussion.
The Warrior climbed the hill but found nothing more enticing than a goody hut (not that I'm turning my nose up at that, but it wasn't going to affect where I was going to place the capital). So as we pretty much unanimously agreed, I settled in place:
Yeah, the new resolution may look a little strange to some of you. I'm afraid you'll just have to get used to it.
I decided to go for an early religion. What the heck, last game on Emperor with a Spiritual leader and all that. Let the dice fly high! I decided to go after Polytheism. I prefer it because it's on the path to Literature for the Great Library, Heroic Epic, and National Epic. My first build was a Warrior to grow the city to size 2 by working a flood plain for the extra food and the 1 commerce to help with research.
The goody hut popped for a tech. Not a spectacular one, nor one that was even remotely useful at the moment, but hey.
I did an about-face with the Warrior and marched him south because I thought there'd be desert to the north. Turns out there's desert to the southwest too. Arabia indeed. At any rate, I found another hut, which popped for gold.
My first neighbour also showed up.
Louis! I haven't seen him in an ALC in a long time--can't even remember if he's been in one other than the time I played as him. I usually don't get along with him when I encounter him in off-line games. As he's pretty close by, I suspect that may be the case again; turns out he's to my southwest, as you'll see.
Louis is also one of the few leaders I've encountered who will try to found an early religion even though he doesn't start with Mysticism.
Some could-be-bad news: someone else founded an early religion on the 14th turn.
I kept my fingers crossed and assumed that this was someone like Isabella researching the cheaper Meditation technology. I kept researching Polytheism. When Mecca grew to size 2, I worked the riverside cows for the hammer and the commerce. Once the Warrior was finished and off exploring, I built a Worker.
And did I found a religion? Of course I did!
It's a bit strange to be founding a decidedly monotheistic religion after researching Polytheism, but whatever. Saladin has his religion. I didn't adopt it as my state religion just yet. I want to see the diplomatic and military situation evolve before I commit myself. I would like to see an Islamic Arabic empire, however, so we may need to discuss how we're going to work towards that goal.
I then turned my attention to worker techs:
However, I haven't irrigated any floodplains. Mecca was growing just fine without that minor food boost.
Then, so I could pasture the cows and see if any horses were about:
Unfortunately, the only horses available thus far are uncomfortably close to French borders. It's a good thing the mounted Arabic UU doesn't require horses, but I doubt that I'll have any Chariots or Horse Archers in this game.
I met another neighbour, or at least his Scout; I still don't know exactly where this guy is yet...
It somehow seems appropriate to have the Ottomans as neighbours, though as I recall the Arabs and Turks didn't really get along. We'll see if history repeats itself or turns out differently in this game.
Has anyone else noticed how freakishly red Suleiman's eyes are? Creepy!
The next tech was researched to get those plains hill mines going, and of course it's on the way to our next two strategic resource-revealing techs, Bronze Working and Iron Working.
This is where I stopped, because I thought we should discuss what to research next, among other things.
Hunting -> Archery may be a good idea to get some defensive units going and to leverage the Protective trait. I haven't seen any barb military units yet, but they can't be far away. Too bad there's no campable resources to better justify the diversion through Hunting, but you can't have everything. Going this route may be safer at this point than taking a chance on Bronze Working, especially since my first crack at a strategic resource (horses) failed.
Here's a look at the map:
So there's no stone nearby--so much for that idea. If I want to build a lot of the "priest economy" wonders, I'll have to chop them. If I don't have stone and I'm not Industrious, going after them will be risky. There is marble, however, in a spot to my northwest that I'm confident I could settle in my first wave of expansion. So we could consider some of the marble-based wonders.
I suspect Louis will claim that silver mine unless I move quickly. I'm tempted to grab it with the first Settler, but I'm wondering if I should wait to see if I can claim copper instead. Then again, if I go Hunting/Archery, BW is a long ways off.
Aside from that, there's a good mix of happy/healthy resources: wheat and corn for grains; pigs, cows, and sheep for livestock; all three seafood resources; incense and silk for calendar; and a couple of additional items, silver and whales.
Louis has marble, and that could be a problem since he's Industrious. As I mentioned, he's also likely to snag the only nearby source of horses. I'm beginning to think he has to die. JIHAD!! As for Suleiman, I suspect he's off to the northwest somewhere--I mean, there aren't to many other possibilities.
So now we finally have some things to talk about beyond the wild speculation that seemed to take over this thread in the absence of the usual "where to settle" discussion.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
It turns out it was the Aqua color ... I think they look great!
The capital looks like the best Bureaucratic Commerce City to me, since most of the river is surrounded in green hills.
I'm not certain where yet (still mulling over a dotmap), but I think your next two cities should be high in Production and Food (not necessarily in that order though).
I'm not a fan of Louis at all (except if I'm playing as him). Industrious & Creative is a nasty combination. If we want to take him out, then we might have to do it with Swords and Catapults if Copper doesn't show up in the BFC. Getting the drop on a Creative leader without a strategic resource in the BFC (/crossFingers) is nigh to impossible.
However, I'm not certain that will be necessary at all. He's expanding westward and might continue that trend. If you can spread Islam to him, he might be worth keeping around. If he builds all the juicy wonders for you over here, then you won't have to go hunting for them later when you want/need them.
-- my 2
(for now at least)uncarved block
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2006
- Messages
- 351
Quite a promising set up. There's plenty of "empty" areas where Bronze or Iron could pop up, and neither of your neighbors founded an early religion, so you can convert them and backstab at leisure, or take out Louis early and still keep Suleiman as a pal. (I'm guessing Louis will settle near that Corn/Sheep area next, unless he gets Animal Loving and can "see" the Horses. There might be war sooner rather than later.) Louis is a bad neighbor, so getting him off the map seems a no-brainer. And you'll need the land-- I may be wrong, but I can't see the land you've got being competitive with what the safe bet says someone on the other continent has.
The dot mappers will have their hands full with this layout, although that's a weak point in my game. Can't see more than one high food city (somewhere around that Corn to the north), which will narrow the Madrassas effectiveness down to two cities. But that could be totally wrong.
The dot mappers will have their hands full with this layout, although that's a weak point in my game. Can't see more than one high food city (somewhere around that Corn to the north), which will narrow the Madrassas effectiveness down to two cities. But that could be totally wrong.
It's all the hashish ...
I think I would go Hunting-->Archery, and settle the corn/marble/sheep city. My goal would be to create a border with Louis that I can that backfill over time--for example, the city East of Mecca can wait a while, but will be a nice city when closer to plantations.
But I'm not playing at this level.
Not an easy map considering the desert and how the resources are spaced.
Red is a good production city and grabs the marble so settling it early is probably a good idea. My choice for a second city (unless copper is available somewhere else).
The magenta city would be good quality city and would block Louis' eastward expansion, but it would have to be settled fast most likely to beat him to it. Also I hate getting into cultural battles early with creative civs. And its distance maintenance is going to cause problems with your early research pace.
The two sites on the south coast (blue, yellow) are needed to get resources, but they're really awful cities and the distance maintenance would be significant. I'd be tempted to leave them to Louis. (For now at least.)
The cyan and green cities are the best I could do trying to make use of the other land. They might need to be moved based on where copper/iron show up.
The white dots are where additional cities could go later. The site SE of Mecca is a good site, but since it's away from your neighbors and doesn't gain any strategic resources it can wait.
Techwise, going for BW is a big gamble. If copper doesn't show up in a convenient location you would be hard pressed to get Hunting and Archery done in time to deal with barbs. That's the price you pay for going for an early religion.
Red is a good production city and grabs the marble so settling it early is probably a good idea. My choice for a second city (unless copper is available somewhere else).
The magenta city would be good quality city and would block Louis' eastward expansion, but it would have to be settled fast most likely to beat him to it. Also I hate getting into cultural battles early with creative civs. And its distance maintenance is going to cause problems with your early research pace.
The two sites on the south coast (blue, yellow) are needed to get resources, but they're really awful cities and the distance maintenance would be significant. I'd be tempted to leave them to Louis. (For now at least.
)The cyan and green cities are the best I could do trying to make use of the other land. They might need to be moved based on where copper/iron show up.
The white dots are where additional cities could go later. The site SE of Mecca is a good site, but since it's away from your neighbors and doesn't gain any strategic resources it can wait.
Techwise, going for BW is a big gamble. If copper doesn't show up in a convenient location you would be hard pressed to get Hunting and Archery done in time to deal with barbs. That's the price you pay for going for an early religion.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
Hmm - your tech order sure does make me think that you forgot you popped fishing.... I'd have preferred Hunting -> Animal Loving, leaving you in position to go after Archery if you didn't like the outcome; Agriculture can wait (hint - how many farms so far?) . Water under the bridge.
I really like the production location NE of the corn - the river is real, so you aren't parked on a strategic resource, but there's certainly room for one near by. I don't think you're going to have the tempi for an accelerated Oracle, but the Shirley Temple might be a reasonable play (nice for a commerce city, free priest if you are into that).
An alternative would be to pair the corn with the sheep, giving you a nice second city in the west, but that gives up on the marble for a while (next city in the north will need to work the wheat, which means the city is one off the coast or marble is in the third ring. And if you aren't on the coast, then you have no good production seaports left....)
How far are musketeers from camel archers? Do we care?
I really like the production location NE of the corn - the river is real, so you aren't parked on a strategic resource, but there's certainly room for one near by. I don't think you're going to have the tempi for an accelerated Oracle, but the Shirley Temple might be a reasonable play (nice for a commerce city, free priest if you are into that).
An alternative would be to pair the corn with the sheep, giving you a nice second city in the west, but that gives up on the marble for a while (next city in the north will need to work the wheat, which means the city is one off the coast or marble is in the third ring. And if you aren't on the coast, then you have no good production seaports left....)
How far are musketeers from camel archers? Do we care?
OTAKUjbski
TK421
Damn ... Validator beat me to it (that's what I get for making it pretty 
), but it appears we largely agree:
In regards to the Green Silver city (Validator's blue), I prefer ignoring the Crabs in favour of grabbing more Fresh Water tiles. With a Lighthouse, each is worth 3
for a collective +6 . The Crabs can only offer +3 by itself.
EDIT: I'm not sure there's much reason to block Louis moving eastward. Those sites aren't the greatest and probably wouldn't be a horrible loss ... definitely not worth tanking our economy early to 'steal' from him.
That's in Paris' Creative BFC.
), but it appears we largely agree:In regards to the Green Silver city (Validator's blue), I prefer ignoring the Crabs in favour of grabbing more Fresh Water tiles. With a Lighthouse, each is worth 3
for a collective +6 . The Crabs can only offer +3 by itself.EDIT: I'm not sure there's much reason to block Louis moving eastward. Those sites aren't the greatest and probably wouldn't be a horrible loss ... definitely not worth tanking our economy early to 'steal' from him.
That's in Paris' Creative BFC.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
If the colors on those resources are correct, Louis already has the marble within his borders, and he's going to have quite a bit of culture pouring into that tile before you get there (Creative + Palace + cheap library + maybe an Academy, and he's industrious....)
