ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

[Nares]

Sury and Zara are both city-spammers and you won't be able to keep pace with them this early.

Actually, Roosevelt spams too.

REXing was suggested for a reason. Skipping all but the Pyramids was suggested for a reason.

I don't understand why people feel the need to wonder spam with a non-wonder spam leader, simply because stone is nearby.

City placement is now "off," and I suspect that the stone won't be used until after the third border pop anyway. This has some of the same characteristics of the first Saladin game, the only difference being that there is no desert between us and the AIs, so we'll be running into their REX much much sooner.

On the bright side, I guess that means there's some potential for rushing. But Sis already made steps toward wonder spam rather than early conquest.

 

[LuCiver]

From the early meeting with Zara's scout, I doubt he is to the north of the jungle band. My guess is he is ~3e of those gems, and is the biggest threat at this point. Roosevelt won't send his first settler south into jungles without IW, He'll head west. But Zara looks to be on the south side of the jungle and has the potential to expand straight towards you.

If my placement of Zara is correct, rexing east will be the way to start. I'm guessing the best you can do is one city directly east (pigs-wheat) and a second city SE to bring your borders to the coast. He will be too close to push things north to try to grab those gems if that means requiring three new cities to completely block him. You may have to make due with the single gem to the west.

As for wonders, let's talk stonehenge again. Without a religion your new cities will have to plunk out a monument to start expanding borders if you want any chance of blocking the AI rex into the south.

My recommendations:
1) Steal the american worker and send him home to hook up stone. Leave Roosevelt alone at this point and let him calm down enough to forget the incident and accept peace. Move that warrior east/southeast to find Zara. Then swing back home, he will be better used for defense than long range scouting.

2) If your southern warrior survives, get him to map the east coast then swing back to meet your first settler at Pig+wheat site.

3) After worker, build that first settler immediately. He plan of action should be NW, road, W, farm corn, road, E, chop, SW, SW, keep on chopping.

4) Tech: Masonry->BW->Hunting->AH->archery. You will probably be choosing your first city sites based on blocking zara rather than grabbing copper.

5) Build: Settler->Stonehenge->unit->settler. If those two are enough to head off Zara, only then consider GW.

6) Send the scout SW and hope the continent runs out before you find another civ. Of course, finding another neighbor to the SW would suck but really would only add to the need for the fastest Rex possible.

 

[Sisiutil]

City placement is now "off," and I suspect that the stone won't be used until after the third border pop anyway. This has some of the same characteristics of the first Saladin game, the only difference being that there is no desert between us and the AIs, so we'll be running into their REX much much sooner.

Hindsight's always 20/20. Keep in mind that the decision to move the Settler and possibly pursue stone wonders was made before we knew that there were any civs around, let alone close by. As with everything in this game, you discover new things, you adjust.

See, now you're making me think I should snag that Worker so he can get the stone quarried before the next border pop just to prove you wrong.

 

[slaze]

As Saladin, i think you want to get a city out relatively quickly; you want to push pressure on an area as soon as possible. This is the spot I think you should settle(attachment). If you can get to the point where you're settling artists there, you won't need to fight. All their cities will be compromised if you can culturally control this area.

The next city after that has to be the triple gold on the desert hill. With all the land there appears to be you want to keep cities to a minimum. We don't want dot map cities, we want madrassa cities. Take the pig and wheat away and your east is secure.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I don't understand why people feel the need to wonder spam with a non-wonder spam leader, simply because stone is nearby.

"Wonder spam," forsooth. Maybe when Sisiutil builds a mine, we can all accuse him of mine-spamming, too.

City placement is now "off," and I suspect that the stone won't be used until after the third border pop anyway.

Huh? How is city placement "off?" As far as I can tell, settling where he did changed none of the other city placements. Now, you might make that statement after some strategic resources have been revealed, but since we have no clue where they are, city placement doesn't seem to be "off."

This has some of the same characteristics of the first Saladin game,

Like the same leader?

the only difference being that there is no desert between us and the AIs, so we'll be running into their REX much much sooner.

Ah, no. There are several differences:

1) We have several more happiness resources;
2) Researching Agriculture and Bronze Working is actually a sensible, intelligent early choice on this map;
3) There are two creative Land-grabbing Civs (one potentially nearby) as well as one Industrious Civ (definitely nearby) as opposed to one Creative Industrious Civ extremely far away and a Land-grabber even farther away;
4) Meaning that should one decide to attack any of them, it may not result in Swordsmen vs. Crossbows.

On the bright side, I guess that means there's some potential for rushing. But Sis already made steps toward wonder spam rather than early conquest.

I'd roll my eyes, but those muscles are getting tired.

Building the Great Wall to aid expansion is not Wonder spam.
Building Stonehenge to aid early land-grabbing would not have been Wonder spam.
Building the Pyramids to get the maximum use out of the Madrassa is not Wonder spamming.

With only a few exceptions, most people have advocated trying for one of these Wonders, depending on the type of game they'd like to see played.

This is not the "All Axe-Rush Challenge"; perhaps you would care to explain how a dogged and relentless attack in the early game regardless of the leader or the map emphasizes any of Saladin's traits or Uniques?

 

[carl corey]

I'm ashamed, I advocated two wonders. I'll report to the nearest "WonderSpammers Anonymous".

Nares, the idea is to block the AIs expantion towards the south. If you don't think we have enough land down south, that's ok. I believe that we do. The AIs can expand in the north as much as they want.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Hi, I'm Van, and I'm a Wonder Spammer. When I started CiV this morning, I had decided I would play a game without wonders. But then I got my start, and there was stone in the BFC. I felt so bad, but I just couldn't control myself. I started shaking until I got a worker on the stone to quarry out pyramids blocks. Really, I didn't mean to, but I just had to do it. It was so shiny, but I felt so ashamed afterwards I tried to paint them purple to make it disappear, but I just felt more ashamed. And while painting purple I had unconsciously started on the hanging gardens. I didn't want to but I guess my gardener was off on painting duty, and I mean they *were* half price with stone and I can still build a settler after the gardens and maybe found a second city. On the marble spot. Oooo I am so ashamed of myself....

 

[Sisiutil]

As Saladin, i think you want to get a city out relatively quickly; you want to push pressure on an area as soon as possible. This is the spot I think you should settle(attachment). If you can get to the point where you're settling artists there, you won't need to fight. All their cities will be compromised if you can culturally control this area.

The next city after that has to be the triple gold on the desert hill. With all the land there appears to be you want to keep cities to a minimum. We don't want dot map cities, we want madrassa cities. Take the pig and wheat away and your east is secure.

I think you're right, given the theorizing that Zara must be close to this area, that a city in this vicinity must be the next priority. (That being said, what do you think of moving the city 1E to claim 2 gem tiles instead of just 1?)

Notice that we're planning my first few cities without knowing where the strategic resources are. I do slag Protective every now and then, but this, to my mind, is an advantage it has, and therefore I should exploit it, as per the raison d'etre of the ALC series.

Naturally I'm going to pursue Bronze Working, probably right after Masonry is done, but mainly to enable whipping and chopping. Hunting and Archery should probably soon follow so I have the freedom to plunk down the cities needed to seal off my portion of the continent without worrying about whether or not they claim strategic resources. If I seal off enough land, I should have those resources available and be able to claim them at my leisure. To my mind, this also argues in favour of the Great Wall--again, so I can pursue REX with nothing stronger than Archers.

 

[Stuck in Pi]

GREAT WALL! I think you should build it after the second city. Barbs will be a pain otherwise, limiting expansion. Also, you can divert all the barbs to your neighbors. Also, the early Great Spy will enable possible sights of enemy cities early. Just my two cents.

 

[huerfanista]

GREAT WALL! I think you should build it after the second city. Barbs will be a pain otherwise, limiting expansion. Also, you can divert all the barbs to your neighbors. Also, the early Great Spy will enable possible sights of enemy cities early. Just my two cents.

Just hope that Roosevelt doesn't have stone nearby as well.

As long as we're out scouting, we might want to get a peek into the BFC's and surrounding area of each AI we meet, so we know what we're up against.

 

[carl corey]

Ouch, Roosevelt with stone would be quite a pain... On the other hand that would me an axe rush to get the wonders... It's better than having Roosevelt w/ stone on the other continent.

 

[Airefuego]

Airefuego, why don't you move your blue city site south a tile and trade those two deserts in for floodplains. The extra growth will give you extra time to consider if it's really worthwhile to found the yellow city which only has 8 or 9 tiles that should be worked.

Your blue move is a good one. (unless further exploration shows that we need to split those floodplains to feed two cities - say, if metals pop up somewhere inconvenient)

The yellow city is very worthwhile in my view, it can work (riverside?) wheat, crab, oasis and one to two golds, and the rest of the food can go to running a modest couple of madrassa specialists, or the forests if some minor production is needed. It will never be size 20 but it will be a fine site that makes a profit. Having access to the southerly ocean may be useful too depending upon what the coast does.

Of course, again all bets are off if more fog reveals critical resources and when metals pop up! But dot maps are fun.

 

[huerfanista]

Ouch, Roosevelt with stone would be quite a pain... On the other hand that would me an axe rush to get the wonders... It's better than having Roosevelt w/ stone on the other continent.

Amen to that!

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Is "early rush" the only way anybody knows how to play this game? I can't believe how many people have this knee-jerk reaction to meeting anybody closer than on another continent in this game.

Besides, it looks like Washington is a lot of Plains and Hills. Unless another Food resource is hiding under that fog, Washington looks like a crap capital.

--------

Yes, take the Worker ... it's 90 free .

Think of it like this: Stonehenge is 90 with Stone. Stealing the Worker = Stealing Stonehenge.

Or like this: the Great Wall is 113 with Stone. 113 - 90 = 23 relative cost by stealing the Worker.

Especially if we skip Stonehenge and rush out a Settler before starting on the Great Wall, that 2nd Worker will do wonders for our second city, since it won't have to slow build its own Worker!

 

[Sisiutil]

As long as we're out scouting, we might want to get a peek into the BFC's and surrounding area of each AI we meet, so we know what we're up against.

I did that with Washington, didn't you notice? All but 4 or 5 tiles of its BFC have been revealed.

 

[patagonia]

To my mind, this also argues in favour of the Great Wall--again, so I can pursue REX with nothing stronger than Archers.

Pffft! With the GW you can REX with nothing stronger than warriors

I'm actually a big fan of slaze's suggestion for a first city location. It's a long-term site, but could well be key to grab early if Zara's where we think he might be.

That advocates settling a 3rd city before chopping out the Pyramids, and prioritizing IW, but those aren't necessarily bad ideas anyway and shouldn't delay things if you pre-chop some forests around Mecca.

 

[carl corey]

OTAKUjbski: Stonehenge won't make an AI not trade with you, or make you need to protect your cities better. So I don't agree that Worker = Stonehenge. It can turn out that stealing it works out really well, as in Roosevelt still trades, he doesn't counterattack, and we simply get one free worker; I'd rather not take the chance seeing how many other good options we have.

And seriously, some people called for wonders (not everybody for the same, of course ), some for REXing (although not always in the same direction), some for axe rush. I don't think there's a dominant group.

 

[slaze]

(That being said, what do you think of moving the city 1E to claim 2 gem tiles instead of just 1?)

Sure. It leaves some pretty nice cities on that river. Probably makes war more inevitable.

Still, look to the triple gold next. It not often there's enough food to work three gold mines.

Then elepants, but that's getting ahead of ourselves.

Notice that we're planning my first few cities without knowing where the strategic resources are. I do slag Protective every now and then, but this, to my mind, is an advantage it has, and therefore I should exploit it, as per the raison d'etre of the ALC series.

Yeah, you're counting on archery to come through for a long time if need be.

 

[Nares]

See, now you're making me think I should snag that Worker so he can get the stone quarried before the next border pop just to prove you wrong.

Maybe you should, so long as you get the GW.

 

[Jet]

If I seal off enough land, I should have those resources available and be able to claim them at my leisure. To my mind, this also argues in favour of the Great Wall--again, so I can pursue REX with nothing stronger than Archers.

I think your Archers (and probably your neighbors, and the fact that you already have Mysticism) are already enough to REX. Haven't you noticed that barb Axemen never spawn in the fog in BTS?

You might still build it, but I think this would be a somewhat iffy reason to do so.