VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
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ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Kev
Hired Goon
OK, I can be 5 minutes late.
OK, I can be 10 minutes late.
OK, I can be 15 minutes late.
OK, I can be 10 minutes late.
OK, I can be 15 minutes late.
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Snap! Time to go to work so it looks like I'll need to catch up on the rest this evening.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 12: 1525 AD to 1784 AD (77 turns) - Part 2
Some of you may think I took far too long to build up for my war with Suryavarman. In my defense, I feel I need to point out that I also had to build up defensive forces to secure my many coastal cities from potential invasion by Montezuma or even Pacal. Sury also had a very large navy by this point--over a dozen Frigates and even more Galleons--so I was also at risk of a naval counter-attack. And I could see that Sury was mostly pursuing civilian technologies, so my military tech lead was secure. But it was time to turn up the pot Sury didn't even know he was sitting in from simmer to boil:
I left the mounted units at home and moved a combined force of Riflemen, upgraded City Raider Grenadiers, and Cannon onto that forested hill just east of Hariharalaya, where Sury's forces were concentrated. As I mentioned, I had a Woodsman III Rifleman in there and a Guerilla II Rifle as well. The other Rifles had a mix of promotions in addition to the default CGI/Drill I (though one or two upgraded Pikemen lacked those promotions). Would Sury be dumb enough to take the bait?
Yep, the AI is indeed still that dumb.
I mean really, Zara's lone Omoro Warrior was an easy target there on flat terrain, but what does Suryavarman do instead? Throw everything he's got a superior units ensconced on a forested hill with its 75% defensive bonus. He lost all but about 4 mounted units or Catapults that managed to withdraw. I lost no units whatsoever. None. And my Woodsman III Rifle gained no less than 12 XPs on one turn, rising from 10 to 22 XPs by winning, I'm sure, exactly a dozen battles.
As a result of all this, Sury's power took a serious nose-dive:
And he never recovered.
I, on the other hand, quickly started taking cities. I had one stack in the south, which had no City Raiders but didn't need them. This stack would proceed up the coast, preceded by a task force of Ships of the Line and Frigates whose job was to eliminate cultural defenses of Khmer coastal cities. Thus, I didn't need to give any Cannon in this stack Accuracy promotions; they all got City Raider instead. And I didn't miss the CR promotions for my attacking units. I've noticed that CR promotions are really only helpful when you lack the necessary number of siege weapons to reduce all the defenders to fish-in-a-barrel status. I still like accumulating CR units and upgrading them, just in case I end up facing a tough fight, but as I said, if I don't have them I find I don't miss them. Not this late in the game.
In the north, my stack contained those upgraded CR Grenadiers. I prefer upgrading CR units to Grens because they then can be protected by the stronger Rifle units in the stack. Indeed, during that earlier hillside battle that saw the destruction of much of Sury's army, not a single Grenadier engaged the enemy; all the defending was done by Rifles. The stack advanced upon the city that had previously housed so much of the enemy and captured it, along with a couple of wonders:
The U of Sankore was not going to help in this game, but the +2 health from the Hanging Gardens is always welcome.
I kept going after military techs. Now that Sury's Ballista Elephants had all been killed off (several Spies I had running around in Khmer territory confirmed that they had, indeed, died in the Battle of Blood Hill), I could safely field all the mounted units I liked, and I like Cavalry very much.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I often find myself researching Rifling before MT these days and skipping Cuirassiers entirely. Quite often the AI beats me to MT and I find myself prioritizing Rifling so I have a unit that can effectively counter Cuirassiers rather than fielding them myself.
My Riverside Ironworks city, Medina, produced its first wonder, despite mounting war weariness (all those Khmer Khnights I killed had a cost).
That was nice--I had two free specialists in all cities for several turns, and I would keep one of them when I switched to State Property, which I planned to do soon. (I had obtained Liberalism in a trade with Pacal very early in the round, so that opened up Communism to me.)
In addition to the ground war, Sury's formidable navy meant there was action on the water as well.
Normally I don't like SotL's higher cost and slow movement--especially since I failed to win the circumnavigation bonus this game--but once one of my Spies revealed how many Frigates Sury had tucked away, I made Military Science and Ships of the Line a priority. They proved their worth, engaging Frigates with high odds (often assisted by several Airships I was now deploying thanks to Physics), even in coastal tiles with its defensive bonus. I now have many highly-promoted Ships of the Line who will be upgraded to Destroyers when the time comes.
After Hariharalaya, my northern stack captured the Khmer Khapital:
(Yes, I get a juvenile charge out of spelling words that way when writing about Sury.) Even though it would suffer from nearby Khmer Khulture (hee hee) for some time, taking the enemy capital early on is alwasy advantageous, as it deprives the enemy of what is probably his best city. Yasodharapura was no exception to this; it didn't have any useful wonders, but look at all those specialists!
I earned another Great General and used him to build a Military Academy in Washington, where I had inherited two settled Great Generals.
I next researched an invaluable tech for a Specialist Economy, helped along by the free Great Scientist from being first to Physics.
Along the way, Sury built another wonder for me. Wasn't that nice of him? Not that it's stop me from kicking his scrawny virtual butt...
By now, war weariness was becoming a serious problem, so I changed some civics to deal with it.
I didn't do any drafting, I just used Nationhood for the +2 happy. Perhaps that's not optimal, but by this point I had a plethora of units and didn't need anymore to drag down my finances. Bad enough I had to keep a bunch of obsolete units camped out in New York and Atlanta to stop those cities from going into revolt because of Zara's culture. Maybe I should have killed him off completely. Oh well.
My next Great Person was a Great Prophet out of Aksum. I settled him in my capital.
I swapped the zero-hammer Intelligence Agency build for Wall Street, so Moses would not only help build it, but contribute to its effect once it was done. Nice synergy there, I thought.
By this time I had no less than three stacks wandering around Khmer territory to capture cities and end the war ASAP:
I earned another Great General and used him for a Military Academy in the former Khmer capital, which you may recall also has a settled GG.
I then received an interesting random event--one I haven't seen before, I suspect because you have to be running Police State for a long time to get a chance of seeing it.
The other option was +2 happiness per city; this was a tough choice, but this war was almost over, WW was now tolerable and manageable, and I expected the next war to be over and result in the win before WW became a problem, so I went for the free promotion.
My next tech, which took a while, thanks to the reduction in research when I went from Representation to Police State:
I decided to pursue Assembly Line after this in order to be able to build/upgrade to Infantry, build the Pentagon, and also get the free GG from Fascism (not to mention build Mount Rushmore and, should the game go on that long, build my favourite BtS unit, Paratroopers).
And I captured the last Khmer city on the continent, though it's not the last Khmer city around.
Sury, by the way, was stubborn for most of the round, refusing to capitulate even as his empire crumbled around his wrinkly little ears. He was researching Steel and probably was calculating on those units making a difference, but I was capturing cities at an alarming rate, and each lost city meant lost research and a delay in Cannon becoming available. In the end, I think I saw two Khmer Khannon (okay, I'll stop now), and they died pretty quickly. Sury never was able to truly field a renaissance-era unit; he never stood a chance, frankly.
So now he'll offer capitulation.
The obvious question is, should I take it? You can see Lingapura in the above screenie: it's the island city to the NE, so that will eliminate any cultural pressure on former Khmer cities there. This would leave him with three island cities in the SW. Now I have started building Galleons in anticipation of capturing sugar island and whatever I need from either Monty or Pacal in order to secure the domination win. So I could go after his remaining cities.
On the other hand, it's going to take a long time to get the Galleons to the NE and loaded to capture Lingapura, then send them all the way to the other end of the continent to capture the remaining three cities. A win might come faster if I just accept his capitulation and move on to the next target.
One worrisome thing about going after Pacal, by the way, is that he now has Combustion and can build destroyers. (He has several sources of oil.) So if he's the next target, I'd have to wait until I research Combustion and have Destroyers to protect my fleet as well. So once again, Monty seems to be the best target in order to achieve the earliest possible domination win.
A state-of-the-world post will follow.
Some of you may think I took far too long to build up for my war with Suryavarman. In my defense, I feel I need to point out that I also had to build up defensive forces to secure my many coastal cities from potential invasion by Montezuma or even Pacal. Sury also had a very large navy by this point--over a dozen Frigates and even more Galleons--so I was also at risk of a naval counter-attack. And I could see that Sury was mostly pursuing civilian technologies, so my military tech lead was secure. But it was time to turn up the pot Sury didn't even know he was sitting in from simmer to boil:
I left the mounted units at home and moved a combined force of Riflemen, upgraded City Raider Grenadiers, and Cannon onto that forested hill just east of Hariharalaya, where Sury's forces were concentrated. As I mentioned, I had a Woodsman III Rifleman in there and a Guerilla II Rifle as well. The other Rifles had a mix of promotions in addition to the default CGI/Drill I (though one or two upgraded Pikemen lacked those promotions). Would Sury be dumb enough to take the bait?
Yep, the AI is indeed still that dumb.
I mean really, Zara's lone Omoro Warrior was an easy target there on flat terrain, but what does Suryavarman do instead? Throw everything he's got a superior units ensconced on a forested hill with its 75% defensive bonus. He lost all but about 4 mounted units or Catapults that managed to withdraw. I lost no units whatsoever. None. And my Woodsman III Rifle gained no less than 12 XPs on one turn, rising from 10 to 22 XPs by winning, I'm sure, exactly a dozen battles.
As a result of all this, Sury's power took a serious nose-dive:
And he never recovered.
I, on the other hand, quickly started taking cities. I had one stack in the south, which had no City Raiders but didn't need them. This stack would proceed up the coast, preceded by a task force of Ships of the Line and Frigates whose job was to eliminate cultural defenses of Khmer coastal cities. Thus, I didn't need to give any Cannon in this stack Accuracy promotions; they all got City Raider instead. And I didn't miss the CR promotions for my attacking units. I've noticed that CR promotions are really only helpful when you lack the necessary number of siege weapons to reduce all the defenders to fish-in-a-barrel status. I still like accumulating CR units and upgrading them, just in case I end up facing a tough fight, but as I said, if I don't have them I find I don't miss them. Not this late in the game.
In the north, my stack contained those upgraded CR Grenadiers. I prefer upgrading CR units to Grens because they then can be protected by the stronger Rifle units in the stack. Indeed, during that earlier hillside battle that saw the destruction of much of Sury's army, not a single Grenadier engaged the enemy; all the defending was done by Rifles. The stack advanced upon the city that had previously housed so much of the enemy and captured it, along with a couple of wonders:
The U of Sankore was not going to help in this game, but the +2 health from the Hanging Gardens is always welcome.
I kept going after military techs. Now that Sury's Ballista Elephants had all been killed off (several Spies I had running around in Khmer territory confirmed that they had, indeed, died in the Battle of Blood Hill), I could safely field all the mounted units I liked, and I like Cavalry very much.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I often find myself researching Rifling before MT these days and skipping Cuirassiers entirely. Quite often the AI beats me to MT and I find myself prioritizing Rifling so I have a unit that can effectively counter Cuirassiers rather than fielding them myself.
My Riverside Ironworks city, Medina, produced its first wonder, despite mounting war weariness (all those Khmer Khnights I killed had a cost).
That was nice--I had two free specialists in all cities for several turns, and I would keep one of them when I switched to State Property, which I planned to do soon. (I had obtained Liberalism in a trade with Pacal very early in the round, so that opened up Communism to me.)
In addition to the ground war, Sury's formidable navy meant there was action on the water as well.
Normally I don't like SotL's higher cost and slow movement--especially since I failed to win the circumnavigation bonus this game--but once one of my Spies revealed how many Frigates Sury had tucked away, I made Military Science and Ships of the Line a priority. They proved their worth, engaging Frigates with high odds (often assisted by several Airships I was now deploying thanks to Physics), even in coastal tiles with its defensive bonus. I now have many highly-promoted Ships of the Line who will be upgraded to Destroyers when the time comes.
After Hariharalaya, my northern stack captured the Khmer Khapital:
(Yes, I get a juvenile charge out of spelling words that way when writing about Sury.) Even though it would suffer from nearby Khmer Khulture (hee hee) for some time, taking the enemy capital early on is alwasy advantageous, as it deprives the enemy of what is probably his best city. Yasodharapura was no exception to this; it didn't have any useful wonders, but look at all those specialists!
I earned another Great General and used him to build a Military Academy in Washington, where I had inherited two settled Great Generals.
I next researched an invaluable tech for a Specialist Economy, helped along by the free Great Scientist from being first to Physics.
Along the way, Sury built another wonder for me. Wasn't that nice of him? Not that it's stop me from kicking his scrawny virtual butt...
By now, war weariness was becoming a serious problem, so I changed some civics to deal with it.
I didn't do any drafting, I just used Nationhood for the +2 happy. Perhaps that's not optimal, but by this point I had a plethora of units and didn't need anymore to drag down my finances. Bad enough I had to keep a bunch of obsolete units camped out in New York and Atlanta to stop those cities from going into revolt because of Zara's culture. Maybe I should have killed him off completely. Oh well.
My next Great Person was a Great Prophet out of Aksum. I settled him in my capital.
I swapped the zero-hammer Intelligence Agency build for Wall Street, so Moses would not only help build it, but contribute to its effect once it was done. Nice synergy there, I thought.
By this time I had no less than three stacks wandering around Khmer territory to capture cities and end the war ASAP:
I earned another Great General and used him for a Military Academy in the former Khmer capital, which you may recall also has a settled GG.
I then received an interesting random event--one I haven't seen before, I suspect because you have to be running Police State for a long time to get a chance of seeing it.
The other option was +2 happiness per city; this was a tough choice, but this war was almost over, WW was now tolerable and manageable, and I expected the next war to be over and result in the win before WW became a problem, so I went for the free promotion.
My next tech, which took a while, thanks to the reduction in research when I went from Representation to Police State:
I decided to pursue Assembly Line after this in order to be able to build/upgrade to Infantry, build the Pentagon, and also get the free GG from Fascism (not to mention build Mount Rushmore and, should the game go on that long, build my favourite BtS unit, Paratroopers).
And I captured the last Khmer city on the continent, though it's not the last Khmer city around.
Sury, by the way, was stubborn for most of the round, refusing to capitulate even as his empire crumbled around his wrinkly little ears. He was researching Steel and probably was calculating on those units making a difference, but I was capturing cities at an alarming rate, and each lost city meant lost research and a delay in Cannon becoming available. In the end, I think I saw two Khmer Khannon (okay, I'll stop now), and they died pretty quickly. Sury never was able to truly field a renaissance-era unit; he never stood a chance, frankly.
So now he'll offer capitulation.
The obvious question is, should I take it? You can see Lingapura in the above screenie: it's the island city to the NE, so that will eliminate any cultural pressure on former Khmer cities there. This would leave him with three island cities in the SW. Now I have started building Galleons in anticipation of capturing sugar island and whatever I need from either Monty or Pacal in order to secure the domination win. So I could go after his remaining cities.
On the other hand, it's going to take a long time to get the Galleons to the NE and loaded to capture Lingapura, then send them all the way to the other end of the continent to capture the remaining three cities. A win might come faster if I just accept his capitulation and move on to the next target.
One worrisome thing about going after Pacal, by the way, is that he now has Combustion and can build destroyers. (He has several sources of oil.) So if he's the next target, I'd have to wait until I research Combustion and have Destroyers to protect my fleet as well. So once again, Monty seems to be the best target in order to achieve the earliest possible domination win.
A state-of-the-world post will follow.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
The State of the World, 1784 AD
So let's start by looking at the map. First off all, MY continent, yes I do love writing/saying that:
And now a look at Mayan, Chinese, and Aztec territory:
I think I oughtta get a couple of Spies loaded onto a Galleon and send them Monty's way to scout out all those blackened tiles...
Domestic Advisor:
Civics:
Another benefit of ending the war is that it will enable me to switch civics. Now that I have the Kremlin in my possession and >4000 gold burning a hole in my virtual pocket, I should probably go into Universal Suffrage for a while and do some rush-buying. Free Speech would also be beneficial now that I've captured some mature cottages (and it would also help with cultural problems, like my cities that are still close to Zara's).
Foreign advisor, relations and glance:
Once again, I am thinking of turning on a friend--this time, the most unlikely of buddies, Montezuma. Tough luck, dude. It's really not safe in this game to be my friend. Of course, it's not safe to be my enemy either. Either way, the AI is screwed. I like it that way.
Active trade deals:
Zara hasn't really been that useful a vassal. I don't think I've traded a tech from him at all. The most good he's done for me has been making a couple of techs slightly cheaper by researching them first. Part of this is my fault for not gifting all the extra resources I have to him, and not gifting all my techs either. But as you saw earlier when Qin gave Democracy to me, allowing me to become the dark horse winner in the race to build the SoL, you have to be careful what techs your vassals have, since you can't really stop them from trading them away. I'd really prefer it if Zara did not trade Rifling to Montezuma, thank you very much.
Resources:
Civics and trade route income:
Techs:
Keep in mind that Pacal also has Combustion.
Military Advisor:
Religion Advisor:
Victory Conditions:
So I have the required population now, but a ways to go in land area--though that will change a little once all the Khmer cities come out of revolt.
Production:
Demographics:
Top cities and wonders:
I know Monty is the easier target, but Mutal is so very, very tempting...
And finally, Espionage:
So... capitulate Sury, or fight him to the bitter end? Capture Sugar Island (which I think needs some urban renewal--the northern barb city should be razed and replaced by two cities, one on either coast), or go straight for my next enemy? And, of course, all the little things I have not thought about or mentioned.
So let's start by looking at the map. First off all, MY continent, yes I do love writing/saying that:
And now a look at Mayan, Chinese, and Aztec territory:
I think I oughtta get a couple of Spies loaded onto a Galleon and send them Monty's way to scout out all those blackened tiles...
Domestic Advisor:
Civics:
Another benefit of ending the war is that it will enable me to switch civics. Now that I have the Kremlin in my possession and >4000 gold burning a hole in my virtual pocket, I should probably go into Universal Suffrage for a while and do some rush-buying. Free Speech would also be beneficial now that I've captured some mature cottages (and it would also help with cultural problems, like my cities that are still close to Zara's).
Foreign advisor, relations and glance:
Once again, I am thinking of turning on a friend--this time, the most unlikely of buddies, Montezuma. Tough luck, dude. It's really not safe in this game to be my friend. Of course, it's not safe to be my enemy either. Either way, the AI is screwed. I like it that way.
Active trade deals:
Zara hasn't really been that useful a vassal. I don't think I've traded a tech from him at all. The most good he's done for me has been making a couple of techs slightly cheaper by researching them first. Part of this is my fault for not gifting all the extra resources I have to him, and not gifting all my techs either. But as you saw earlier when Qin gave Democracy to me, allowing me to become the dark horse winner in the race to build the SoL, you have to be careful what techs your vassals have, since you can't really stop them from trading them away. I'd really prefer it if Zara did not trade Rifling to Montezuma, thank you very much.
Resources:
Civics and trade route income:
Techs:
Keep in mind that Pacal also has Combustion.
Military Advisor:
Religion Advisor:
Victory Conditions:
So I have the required population now, but a ways to go in land area--though that will change a little once all the Khmer cities come out of revolt.
Production:
Demographics:
Top cities and wonders:
I know Monty is the easier target, but Mutal is so very, very tempting...
And finally, Espionage:
So... capitulate Sury, or fight him to the bitter end? Capture Sugar Island (which I think needs some urban renewal--the northern barb city should be razed and replaced by two cities, one on either coast), or go straight for my next enemy? And, of course, all the little things I have not thought about or mentioned.
Andvare
King
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2007
- Messages
- 788
All units dying in enemy territory, yes.
That will help you out a bit when it comes to getting an early victory. It lowered the domination land threshhold by 2%.
I don't know about this. Researching Corporation obsoleted the Great Lighthouse, so you got a net loss of one trade route in your coastal cities, and a net gain of one trade route in inland cities (which are generally less profitable). I think it would have been better to leave Corporation until just before AL, and then research it if you couldn't get it in trade.
You might want to see if Sury will give you Lingapura (and his other goodies) for peace. That will give you 10 turns to get your fleet and army in position in the SW. Then re-declare war and take out his last 3 cities. They probably aren't well defended so you might even be able to take all three on the same turn. Although you'll probably want to land your armies to avoid the amphibious penalty. Luckily all 3 cities are on islands that are larger than 1 tile.
The 10 turns of peace will give you some relief from WW, so you can change civics accordingly to get an economic boost. (Leveraging Spiritual
)After that your army/navy will be in a good position to take the barb island, and then that can be used as a launching point for the attack on Monty/Pacal. Depending on how far short you are in land you might want to think about going after Pacal's core cities. He'll probably capitulate quickly (unlike Monty), so if that will give you enough land to reach the threshhold that's probably fastest. Monty will be more technologically backward, but he has a much larger army than Pacal, and he'll send it all at you when you attack (unlike Pacal whose cities are spread out a bit).
You may have started building galleons, but you really should be building more at this point (6 built with one more under construction in the mighty production city of Najran
). Estruscan would be the logical choice, since it really doesn't need an Observatory. (Would you quit it with the unneeded civilian builds in your HE city already? 
)BTW you also might want to think about replacing some of Estruscan's farms with workshops now that you have Bio.
You have OB with Monty so you should be sending a scout over. No chance of it being lost as will happen if your spy is discovered.
Melon Head
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Messages
- 134
Well done. Looks like you'll win soon. I agree with most of Validator's points, though I might vassalize for the happy + to make your life easier.
Your tech path confuses me. You're running an SE, were worried about SM obsoleting stuff, then grabbed it and waited dozens of turns for Bio? I just don't follow. Bio is the biggest reason to grab SM early; SM by itself is lame, it just opens up good techs.
Your tech path confuses me. You're running an SE, were worried about SM obsoleting stuff, then grabbed it and waited dozens of turns for Bio? I just don't follow. Bio is the biggest reason to grab SM early; SM by itself is lame, it just opens up good techs.
NintendoTogepi
Noble Pacifist
Please tell me you built monestaries...get missionary spamming ASAP!
Anyway, wipe out Sury and then off to Montezuma. Let Pacal be.
Also, just shows how I play totally different. I would have grabbed Islam through Monotheism and then turtled my way to Culture with no wars
But then again I play Noble, and you play Emperor...
Anyway, wipe out Sury and then off to Montezuma. Let Pacal be.
Also, just shows how I play totally different. I would have grabbed Islam through Monotheism and then turtled my way to Culture with no wars
But then again I play Noble, and you play Emperor...
DrJambo
Crash-test dummy
Sisuitil, small but helpful tip:
You don't have to wait until one GA is finished before starting the next. Starting one when one is already ongoing just adds 10 turns to the overall length of the GA.
Good job!
You don't have to wait until one GA is finished before starting the next. Starting one when one is already ongoing just adds 10 turns to the overall length of the GA.
Good job!
Boy, that became easy! 
I'm still amazed you could wrap up the bag (and wrapped up it is, just look at that production chart!) so neatly considering you allowed the infidels to keep over half of your continent warm for you for all those thousands of years...
I would say you don't need to move up a difficulty level though. What you need is some bad luck with the map generator!
What I mean is that during the ALCs you've been blessed with great starts in most of them (this one not an exception, though you did get off to an uncharacteristically slow start). It's the few times you've been given decidedly below average starts there's been a few close calls and the few losses.
I would really have liked you to replay that other Saladin map. I do understand you won't replay any given map, but man, your skill really requires somebody to regenerate the next start until it really becomes "challenging"!
Congrats on the Protective win though, for a win it most assuredly is!
I'm still amazed you could wrap up the bag (and wrapped up it is, just look at that production chart!) so neatly considering you allowed the infidels to keep over half of your continent warm for you for all those thousands of years...
I would say you don't need to move up a difficulty level though. What you need is some bad luck with the map generator!
What I mean is that during the ALCs you've been blessed with great starts in most of them (this one not an exception, though you did get off to an uncharacteristically slow start). It's the few times you've been given decidedly below average starts there's been a few close calls and the few losses.
I would really have liked you to replay that other Saladin map. I do understand you won't replay any given map, but man, your skill really requires somebody to regenerate the next start until it really becomes "challenging"!
Congrats on the Protective win though, for a win it most assuredly is!
Daedal
Prince
I would say you don't need to move up a difficulty level though. What you need is some bad luck with the map generator!
What I mean is that during the ALCs you've been blessed with great starts in most of them (this one not an exception, though you did get off to an uncharacteristically slow start). It's the few times you've been given decidedly below average starts there's been a few close calls and the few losses.
It actually seems to be the civilian stuff (wonders, religions) that really brought Sisiutil down in the last attempt and at the beginning of this one. (I advocated some of that stuff too.... my bad
). The amazing recovery in this game has definitely shown me how important war is to success. War early. War often. If you're not at war you should be getting ready for it. If you're ready for it you should be knocking heads. And if the map generator gives you a bad start, just take somebody else's. 
I like Validator's suggestion for getting a 10 turn peace then taking the last few Khmer cities. It looks like that would put your galleons within 2 turns of an uninhabited island, which you should settle, and the sugar island, which is rightfully yours.
I'm not sure who to attack next. Pacal is more fragmented and smaller so he'd be an easier target than Monty, but does he have enough land left to give you the victory? Another long round should wrap this one up. Nice work as always turning this game around!Well this game is in the bag. Once the khmer territory comes out of revolt you'll be awfully close to the domination threshold.
Absolutely accept capitulation: Sury doesn't look like he has many other tiles under his control, and you'll get half of them for domination anyway.
If you pay attention to the % of land as they come out you should be able to get a pretty accurate calculation of how much each tile is worth, and then see if you have enough already, or if adding sugar island would be enough, or if you will need some AI land.
If sugar isn't enough land, I would guess that your best bet is to bribe Pacal into war with Monty (if he isn't already in it) and grab some easy land there: no sense dealing with destroyers and whatnot if you don't have to...
Absolutely accept capitulation: Sury doesn't look like he has many other tiles under his control, and you'll get half of them for domination anyway.
If you pay attention to the % of land as they come out you should be able to get a pretty accurate calculation of how much each tile is worth, and then see if you have enough already, or if adding sugar island would be enough, or if you will need some AI land.
If sugar isn't enough land, I would guess that your best bet is to bribe Pacal into war with Monty (if he isn't already in it) and grab some easy land there: no sense dealing with destroyers and whatnot if you don't have to...
r_rolo1
King of myself
Am I the only that noticed so far that Sury has five cities and we only see four of them ( check the capitulation screenie: 1 city offered, 3 other on "Sury has" column and the capital )? If the other city is in the other hemisphere it could serve as a jump point to the inevitable Monty backstabing 
A issue: why 20% culture? most of your cities ( besides the recently captured sury ones and the ex ethiopian ( you should had killed them ) ) are far below cap. It looks like a waste of good cash ......
P.S If we are going to talk why S man lost previous Sal ALC.... That map needed a swift action on Louis. S man turtled... when he attacked it was too late. IMHO a standart axe rush would had been by far the best strat in there.... Louis was making wonders after all
A issue: why 20% culture? most of your cities ( besides the recently captured sury ones and the ex ethiopian ( you should had killed them
) ) are far below cap. It looks like a waste of good cash ......P.S If we are going to talk why S man lost previous Sal ALC.... That map needed a swift action on Louis. S man turtled... when he attacked it was too late. IMHO a standart axe rush would had been by far the best strat in there.... Louis was making wonders after all
Well, I think you pretty much know where I stand.
STOP LOOKING AT PACALS WONDERS! All they are doing is tempting you. Fight the temptation! You capture the cities,they come out of revolt, game. Combustion makes it much to difficult to attack him.
Accept capitulation. move on to next target. Sury doesnt have enough tiles left to make it worth the time to attack him some more. Also, every turn you waste going after Monty allows him to research a tech that may hurt you... I know smart research is not Monty's style... but you never know.
STOP LOOKING AT PACALS WONDERS! All they are doing is tempting you. Fight the temptation! You capture the cities,they come out of revolt, game. Combustion makes it much to difficult to attack him.
Accept capitulation. move on to next target. Sury doesnt have enough tiles left to make it worth the time to attack him some more. Also, every turn you waste going after Monty allows him to research a tech that may hurt you... I know smart research is not Monty's style... but you never know.
Becareful of a Mayan AP win. All it would take is three missionaries. One to China and one to Zara and one to sury to. I think you did build a Taoist monastary somewhere. If not a brief OR trip might help. Though I don't think Pacman will leave FR
@Rolo, Medina gets an unhappy face if he drops the culture slider even one notch. And he has some already with unhappy faces. Once the war is over, should be this turn, then it can drop back to 0%. He doesn't need it to pop the borders on cities once they come out of revolt because he has the Sistine and SoL. That gives him a free 2
from each city.
Sis, Where possible, switch your engineers to priests. They give 2 hammers 1 gold vs 2 hammers 0 gold for engineers.
@Rolo, Medina gets an unhappy face if he drops the culture slider even one notch. And he has some already with unhappy faces. Once the war is over, should be this turn, then it can drop back to 0%. He doesn't need it to pop the borders on cities once they come out of revolt because he has the Sistine and SoL. That gives him a free 2
from each city.Sis, Where possible, switch your engineers to priests. They give 2 hammers 1 gold vs 2 hammers 0 gold for engineers.
Well if you're aiming for the quickest victory possible here I would accept his capitulation and go for Montezuma as soon as possible. If Sury capitulates to you now you will have that NE city and 50% of his land area to count for the domination victory, and once the culture borders pop on NW part of the continent you are probably close to 55% of land area, meaning you won't need much more for domination. Another option imo is to seize that barbarian island and if it's not enough for the win, then just capture the Chinese capital/possibly some other city area if he doesn't capitulate to you already(you can do this at the same time you take the barb islands).
r_rolo1
King of myself
IMHO Medina can live quite well with some 
for a while... I think that S man should ask for peace and world map ( so that issue will not stand ) After knowing where is the lost Khmer city the decision about capitulating or not will be far more save.... alternatively he could ask for some other civ map. IMHO it is not worth to let khmer alive ( especially because of the motherland .... see what Zara existance is doing in terms of Happiness ), but if he has a city in the other side of the world things can look diferent....
for a while... I think that S man should ask for peace and world map ( so that issue will not stand ) After knowing where is the lost Khmer city the decision about capitulating or not will be far more save.... alternatively he could ask for some other civ map. IMHO it is not worth to let khmer alive ( especially because of the motherland .... see what Zara existance is doing in terms of Happiness ), but if he has a city in the other side of the world things can look diferent....Combustion Comshution. It is the MG's that worry me in Maya. But I agree on Khapitulation and Monty as a target. Just build galleons in all your coastal cities. Use a few spies to drop defenses at one city. You should be able to take out enough of Monty for a dom win with what forces you have from the Sury campaign. Your Gunpowder units all have march, so just drop defense with cannons and assault with infantry vs muskets/longbows. You won't need to stop and let units heal if you don't use too much siege. Drill3 infantry and upgraded CR units should be able to take a city of muskets and LB's without using siege for collateral. If you wait too long then Monty can tech steel for cannons.
