ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

[Hereditary Rule]

It won't particularly matter whether he statons a protective archer near his opponent or a regular archer. City garrison does not affect forested hills. Drill I... well..... think about it

Having Drill one opens up Cover (+25% vs. archers) with a barracks. 2 of these in a forest or on a hill (or both) can trap an AI in his capital.

 

[Bandobras Took]

You know what's the whole point of this protective thing? How many times has a city been under siege by the AI in an ALC game? I bet that hasn't been the case too often...

That's the thing that needs to be showed off. Get attacked by some freaky civ and let them get kicked ass by you protective archers with some help of the castles, walls, statue of zeus etc etc while you go for a cultural victory.

With Saladin, you can also provoke attacks by putting cultural pressure on your neighbors thanks to Madrassas.

 

[Lord Chambers]

This is really a spoiler. Don't read unless you've already started your shadow game.

Spoiler :

This ACL will be a walk in the park unless you follow the advice listed so far. Stone, gold, gems, and copper all within your first three cities, pushover opponents including one who you can't help but isolate inside his captial, with ample space to expand at liesure. So, I'm really intersted in seeing how close you can come to losing by moving your initial settler with plans to build stonehenge and make enemies attack your protective archers behind walls. I mean, that's the only way this ACL could claim to be a challenge.

 

[Sisiutil]

I moved the Warrior and the Settler to reveal a couple more tiles and help us make that all-important where-to-put-the-capital decision.

It looks like there's quite a bit of plains to the south--along a river, but plains nonetheless. While several of arguing in favour of settling 1SW of the original spot (1W of the pigs), and I was leaning in that direction too, it now looks like my original inclination to go 1W (1NW of the piggies) makes more sense. At the very least, I see a grassland tile up there that I would be gaining in exchange for one of the riverside plains tiles.

The Settler has 1 move left, so I think I'll go 1NW and then settle on the next turn to start off the round.

I liked Jet's tech and build path from a few pages back, so I will likely follow that and give Stonehenge a shot:

Hunting -> AH -> Masonry -> Archery
Worker (road to Stone until AH), Scout and Warrior (slowly, working food tiles and timing it with the Quarry), Stonehenge, Archer, Settler.

EDIT: I forgot to add--I recently played an off-line game with these settings and quite liked them. Isolation is something that happens from time to time in a game, and I'm not opposed to it occurring for certain leaders. Certainly not for Saladin. I usually try to avoid isolation in my off-line games only if I have an early UU; not getting to use Praetorians is just no fun. I usually just abandon those games; for the ALCs, I don't want false starts if I can avoid them, so I'll have generous souls here check the start for me.

Regarding the spoilers--while I appreciate the use of spoiler tags, I would still prefer it if someone just created a separate ALC spoiler thread that I can more easily avoid. Sometimes it's hard to resist temptation (and IIRC, the spoiler content gets displayed when quoting). Thanks!

 

[whakamole]

In regards to your tech & build paths... you may have to take one more "pause for feedback" if the resulting hut pop from settling ends up giving you a critical tech or a unit. Good luck!

 

[whakamole]

This start also has me thinking... with stone and so many grassland forests, you could be ripe for a Pyramids SE with a National Park gambit for your capital. I've attempted this a couple of times before (although because it was a divergent path from normal wins, I did this - and succeeded more than once - but on Monarch, only).

The premise is a little far-thinking, but simple. Basically, you don't touch your forests until you can build preserves, and then fence 'em all in and add National Park as a wonder. All those specialists provide an amazing wealth of science and culture in the end game (depending on if you're gunning for a space or culture win). Because they're grassland forests at 2F each, your city can grow & sustain itself fairly well, especially with the pigs/stone to give you added food and hammers.

I've also done it as a "half and half" - where I chop and farm some forests next to the river to reveal the commerce and allow the city to grow even more people... Pairing the National Park with national epic gives you more GPP or pairing with Globe Theatre allows you to build the city to crazy levels if you can (since NP reduces negative health). I've done this typically if I also have floodplain farms in my BFC to jack up the population.

I've also focused on GPP strategy with National Park, adding Parthenon and Mausoleum, to produce many ripe golden ages due to the number of specialists I can run with a good National Park site. Saladin's UB functions well with this idea, since it can unlock more specialist slots - you wouldn't necessarily have to run Caste System as a civic to maximize your specialist assignments.

Of course, the grassland rivers in your BFC also lend themselves to supporting a fantastic commerce center (especially if you can found a religion/shrine here with the help of those madrassas), or a late-game production center (watermills, levee, Iron Works). Regardless of your direction, I think it'll be a solid base for your capital, with room to add other cities on this river to the east and south (hopefully!)

 

[Nares]

Get attacked by some freaky civ and let them get kicked ass by you protective archers with some help of the castles, walls, statue of zeus etc etc while you go for a cultural victory.

And first watch all your tile improvements get trashed, followed by your specialists starving off, and capped by swapping to Serfdom to rebuild all that you lost.

At least farms are almost painless to replace, and Saladin is Spiritual.

With Saladin, you can also provoke attacks by putting cultural pressure on your neighbors thanks to Madrassas.

That might be one of its stronger points.

2 of these in a forest or on a hill (or both) can trap an AI in his capital.

Parking your starting warrior in an AIs BFC just to artificially suppress it doesn't really seem appropriate here, even if you choose to do so in your own off-line games.

I liked Jet's tech and build path from a few pages back, so I will likely follow that and give Stonehenge a shot

I just want to re-iterate my suggestion to lay off the early wonders. Chop any forested hills for expansion, leaving the forested grasslands for the Pyramids, and any forested plains for the long-term future. Research Mining, Bronze Working, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry.

I'm assuming worker first is established.

Best of luck with Stonehenge, though. As I was saying to LC in the spoiler below, early religion bogged you down last time, amidst a series of challenges/failures. Could early wonders offer the same ?

 

[Nares]

@Lord Chambers

Spoiler :

So, I'm really intersted in seeing how close you can come to losing by moving your initial settler with plans to build stonehenge and make enemies attack your protective archers behind walls. I mean, that's the only way this ACL could claim to be a challenge.

Sounds about right. Early religion last time, maybe it'll be early wonders this time? I mean, the start is easy, but this is still Emperor.

 

[madscientist]

Settle NW of the Pigs.

 

[slaze]

it's starting to get a littld food negative. NW looks better than W from where your settler is currently, but the madrassa likes alotta food. At least you get another move with the warrior before you decide.

 

[Bandobras Took]

And first watch all your tile improvements get trashed, followed by your specialists starving off, and capped by swapping to Serfdom to rebuild all that you lost.

Yep, I always make border cities farm-heavy with lots of specialists.

Seriously, setting up a target city and provoking a war is a viable strategy with Protective. As with so many other strategies, you do it if the map warrants it. It drags a neighboring Civ down in the dumps for a minimal hammer investment compared to the preparation involved in actually building an army capable of conquering them and the economic drags involved there.

Will it be warranted on this map? That's what scouting is for.

Best of luck with Stonehenge, though. As I was saying to LC in the spoiler below, early religion bogged you down last time, amidst a series of challenges/failures. Could early wonders offer the same ?

Well, he also took Agriculture pointlessly and went for Bronze Working and aggression over peaceful, well-defended expansion.

 

[Artichoker]

The Settler has 1 move left, so I think I'll go 1NW and then settle on the next turn to start off the round.

A safe and solid decision.

I liked Jet's tech and build path from a few pages back, so I will likely follow that and give Stonehenge a shot:

Hunting -> AH -> Masonry -> Archery
Worker (road to Stone until AH), Scout and Warrior (slowly, working food tiles and timing it with the Quarry), Stonehenge, Archer, Settler.

The obvious alternative is to go for Bronze Working, which requires Mining.

In the previous game, you made good by going for Bronze Working (and finding Copper) before Archery.

This is not a choice between Axemen and Archers...it's really a choice between Stonehenge and the Madrassa. Since the Madrassa requires Writing, you were able to economize on research by going for Bronze Working first. This, in turn, allowed the earlier research of Writing.

In this game, you have Stone, which might make Stonehenge a worthwhile prospect. But you're not forced to go with this decision...

 

[huerfanista]

I'm surprised that the settler was moved before looking at what the warrior revealed. If I'm seeing correctly, the tile 1N2E of where the warrior moved to is not forested. That means 2 partially revealed tiles in the starting BFC (1E2N and 2E) were not forested, and you only have 1 food bonus showing. I'd say that one of those tiles is going to be another food and/or military bonus. You'll lose both of them if you settle NW of the current settler to grab the stone. This seems like an awfully big gamble to me. I think you'll end up hosing your capital if you do this (ie, settle 1W of the original start). Going 1 NW of the original start at least gives you a chance to grab the northern unrevealed tile. How likely is it that the map generator gave you a capital with only 1 food bonus? Given what the warrior showed (or at least hinted at), I think the original starting location is likely to be the best. All of the tiles of the starting BFC have been either fully or partially shown so far, with 2 of the eastern-most ones forested and the third non-forested. Of the 3 northernmost tiles, only 1 has not been seen, and it's non-forested. Think about it.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Since the Madrassa requires Writing, you were able to economize on research by going for Bronze Working first. This, in turn, allowed the earlier research of Writing.

I'm trying, but I can't figure out this logic.

Mining+Bronze Working might reveal copper. Even if it does, you haven't done anything to unlock Writing.

Hunting Archery gives you a certain unit that doesn't need to be hooked up, and you only need Animal Husbandry to unlock Writing. Animal Husbandry potentially unlocks Horses, as well.

Overall, in the case of a Protective leader it seems Bronze Working is the gamble that delays Writing. Not Archery.

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm surprised that the settler was moved before looking at what the warrior revealed. If I'm seeing correctly, the tile 1N2E of where the warrior moved to is not forested. That means 2 partially revealed tiles in the starting BFC (1E2N and 2E) were not forested, and you only have 1 food bonus showing. I'd say that one of those tiles is going to be another food and/or military bonus. You'll lose both of them if you settle NW of the current settler to grab the stone. This seems like an awfully big gamble to me. I think you'll end up hosing your capital if you do this (ie, settle 1W of the original start). Going 1 NW of the original start at least gives you a chance to grab the northern unrevealed tile. How likely is it that the map generator gave you a capital with only 1 food bonus? Given what the warrior showed (or at least hinted at), I think the original starting location is likely to be the best. All of the tiles of the starting BFC have been either fully or partially shown so far, with 2 of the eastern-most ones forested and the third non-forested. Of the 3 northernmost tiles, only 1 has not been seen, and it's non-forested. Think about it.

It's dicey to commit yourself to tiles still in the fog. However, it's not too late. On the next turn the Warrior can climb that forested hill (1 NE) and we'll know what's on those tiles to which you refer. By then the Settler will be on the tile 1W of the pigs. However, I'd lose another turn if I move the Settler onto either of the forested tiles north of the river.

The first round may be very short!

 

[Artichoker]

I'm trying, but I can't figure out this logic.

Mining+Bronze Working might reveal copper. Even if it does, you haven't done anything to unlock Writing.

Hunting Archery gives you a certain unit that doesn't need to be hooked up, and you only need Animal Husbandry to unlock Writing. Animal Husbandry potentially unlocks Horses, as well.

Overall, in the case of a Protective leader it seems Bronze Working is the gamble that delays Writing. Not Archery.

The point is...Bronze Working is not just about making Axemen. It's about being able to chop, being able to adopt Slavery, and being able to find a high-production tile in the form of a Copper mine.

For Saladin, two of the early priorities are Writing and Bronze Working. He's already handicapped by starting with Mysticism.

 

[ratrangerm]

For Saladin, Archery should be considered a priority, IMO. He's Protective.

The start in question suggests BW is a priority because of all the forest, but really, if we are going to utilize Saladin's traits, Archery should go before BW with one exception... if there is a neighbor who is too close and the belief is that said neighbor should be rushed early.

Of course, if there is a neighbor close by, then Stonehenge may have to be skipped as well.

At any rate, I think Sis made good decisions about moving the Settler and Warrior, so I'd go 1NW and settle there, unless the Warrior reveals something good on the next move.

 

[Bandobras Took]

The point is...Bronze Working is not just about making Axemen. It's about being able to chop, being able to adopt Slavery, and being able to find a high-production tile in the form of a Copper mine.

I see . . . but in this start, you're still going to need some decent food-producing tiles for Slavery, and unless the Copper is in the BFC, I'm not sure it helps this early. It seems more like you'd also need Agriculture to have something to replace the forests with, which means you aren't gaining that much of a jump on Writing by researching Bronze Working. I can see reasons for prioritizing Bronze Working generally, but with this start and Saladin's techs and traits, it looks like it can take something of a back seat. Working the Pigs and the Stone provides a decent amount of Food and Hammers this early. (I'm not saying we should avoid Bronze Working like the plague, just that until we have developed Food tiles, Slavery isn't as hot).

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I don't want false starts if I can avoid them, so I'll have generous souls here check the start for me.

You're fine ... keep playing.

(Since I've looked at the map, I'll refrain from commenting until a few rounds after I've forgotten what I saw.)

 

[NintendoTogepi]

You're fine ... keep playing.

(Since I've looked at the map, I'll refrain from commenting until a few rounds after I've forgotten what I saw.)

I looked too after my post in this thread, so no comments from me either