ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

As far as tech, I'm not completely sold on Metal Casting. That advice was for an infiltration, throwing science out the window, focusing solely on production and expansion, eventually stealing from and overpowering your enemies. But looking again at your position, namely controlling the pyramids, that might not have been the best advice anyway.

At some point MC will be very usefull - you have two precious metals - but at present your happiness limit is relatively high, and 4 pop buildings are time consuming. I find then much easier to build with Organized religion.

Speaking of religion, it doesn't look too promising that your continent is getting one soon, so it might be time to start thinking about one. After all, you are Saladin and monotheism isn't that far away. I think research-wise, you do exactly that: mono while working on a prophet. It's so ALC-ish it makes sense.

However the only city capable enough to do this at the pace you need is Mecca, so you may need some back up plans if you pop a spy or engineer. Both could be settled, and you may want to rush the MoM in Najran.

Speaking of Najran, settling it where it is was a :smoke: move. 1S would have been so much safer. Zara built stonehenge so his city has probably had a stele since the turn it was built. He might flip ya.

Anyway, the path to mono goes through poly, so you may want to make that trade. The techs are about equal in cost; it really not that bad of a trade beaker-wise. As others have said, it's really not that hard for him to get it himself, I say you do it and put away your plans for war for a little bit.

Right now, your advantage is you happy cap - use that as much as you can. Your population ranking was really only due to Mecca, and even that is only on par with the AI capitols. Build farms to grow, espicially in Medina and Baghdad, and cottage them over later if at all. With Rep, just run preists and scientists. You might as well continue to cottage Mecca and acadamy/Bureaucracy it later. I'd cottage Gaul too. The unhealth will be too much too quickly if it's farmed.

Take chicago if it flips. it has river grassland which is good enough for growth.

Continue your expansion into the area south of Mecca, the barb cities, and thirdly, there are islands SW of etruscan. Although they are distant, the intercontinental trade usually makes them profitable right away. And just so you know you aren't connected to everyone with trade routes. You're only connected to zara with roads. Yes you have the trade symbol with everybody because they have sailing, but this only means you can trade resources with them. This is fine because you've saturated your routes with Zara and 2:commerce: is the max you can get until harbors or pop 10+ cities, although come currency you'll want to be connected to everybody else. (I also noticed something odd where Najran had no trade routes, not even a domestic one, even though it's connected. I don't know how to explain this.)

Spy-wise, put all your esp into whoever's teching Calendar. Everyone seems to be heading that way so it'll be khymer or zara. Or currency. After teching mono, then i might manually tech metal casting.

The south looks hard to dotmap but i think it should go like this:
s0000.jpg

The Iron will claim it (the south), the bronze comes after the barbs and the river much later down the line. It's not amazing land, but there's some nice drafting possibilities when the time comes.

But overall, I'd continue to work on expansion and most importantly, grow your cities. Your economy's fine - you have three more gold mines coming after Gaul. (Under-utilizing damascus was your other :smoke: move). I wouldn't expect to see war until maybe 1000 AD.
 
I'd say go Math Currency CoL Construction
and REX you are at 40% slider and have the the ability to use science specialists.. slide down to 10% and use scientists to pull you out.
This tech path and overall approach sounds good to me.

Keep up with the expansion and don't go stealing food from Etruscan - it's an absolute diamond of a city location.

I'd also second what Validator said about the location of Najran, and what Validator and Slaze have said about the location of iron city. 2E is a much better location than the one you've proposed.
 
... although FDR looks like he has a city to the west of Baghdad...

Actually that "blue" city next to Baghdad is Khmer, not American. (Sury's been spamming settlers and is now up to 9 cities. :eek:) So in addition to now having a border with all three AI civs, Baghdad is going to be under Creative cultural pressure and will probably lose some of its tiles (although no resource tiles at least).

as for the REXing, I'm going to zag and say put the Iron city 2 N of the Iron...
...
Take the 2 barb cities
and get two more citie on the west coast
one for fish+chips (corn chips)
one for burgers (cow)
It might also be worth getting the Dye City... even pre-Calendar those Riveside dyes are 2f2c

2N of iron wouldn't be my choice since it's off the river. 2N1W is better, since it can also work both the FPs that Gaul misses. But overall I think the 2E of the iron is best.

As mentioned above the fish and chips city is already gone. The cow city seems to be of low value pre-irrigation chaining (and not very good after IMO). I'm not sure which dye city you're talking about. The one NW of Baghdad is almost surely taken at this point. It's probably been a long while since that area was scouted (Hint ;)).

Speaking of religion, it doesn't look too promising that your continent is getting one soon, so it might be time to start thinking about one. After all, you are Saladin and monotheism isn't that far away. I think research-wise, you do exactly that: mono while working on a prophet. It's so ALC-ish it makes sense.

It may be possible but the odds are against it. The madrassa in Mecca won't be done for another 6 turns. By then the GPP situation in Mecca will be 120/300, so 40% done. So even working 2 priests immediately will still give only about a 1 in 3 chance of getting a prophet.

It will also take a total of 24 turns to get the next great person in Mecca if only 2 priests are used. The fourth religion has already been founded. Probably (and hopefully) that's from CoL. But the Theology religion probably won't be far behind.

So you have to wonder if it's really worth trying for it at this point. What do you give up by researching Mono (and Poly if it's not acquired via trade)? OTOH OR is Sury's favorite civic, so it should be possible to get some diplo points with him by pursuing this route.

I also noticed something odd where Najran had no trade routes, not even a domestic one, even though it's connected. I don't know how to explain this.

I think it's because the road to Najran was just completed this turn. Apparently the trade route connection status updates immediately, but the actual trade routes for the city don't appear until the next turn.
 
Close borders with Zara! It'll stop him sending settlers through your lands, and perhaps of more immediate importance, will slash his trade routes with the other civs. Given he's got the Great Lighthouse and the Temple of Artemis, that's paramount!

:king:
 
Close borders with Zara! It'll stop him sending settlers through your lands, and perhaps of more immediate importance, will slash his trade routes with the other civs. Given he's got the Great Lighthouse and the Temple of Artemis, that's paramount!

Zara has trade routes with Sury & FDR via coast which Sisiutil can not interrupt.

I'd say no further cities! Deficit research Math (while prechopping with your new worker squadron) and then chop + whip your army as quickly as possible. Train your soldiers @ barbs camp, then send them straight to take Aksum (spy-revolt) now. All EPs on Zara.

If it isn't now it will not be before 1200+ AD -- too late to enjoy all the GPPs from Zara's capital.
 
Sistuil should make it a priority then to cut off Zara's coastal trade routes to the other civs. Borders will still need to be closed to prevent Zara's settlers in galleys settling other areas of this land mass.
 
I think we in the peanut gallery need to back up and look at the overall strategy here. Sisiutil has basically two choices:

1. Managed expansion while keeping up the power rating, with an emphasis on beelining engineering and guilds to enable UU and trebuchets. Challenges: (1) maintaining financial stability while expanding and (2) keeping borders from getting squeezed by the culturific neighbors.

2. Gear up for catapult/elephant/axe assault on a nearby neighbor, probably Zara. Challenge: making sure you don't get owned by Sury while you are fighting Zara.

I think either approach could work, but it seems to me that since Sisiutil is not backed in a corner, option 1 is more attractive. That would require getting granaries and madrassas in all cities ASAP while cranking out sufficient units to keep Zara at bay.
 
Sury got to nine cities? I think this could be the most significant news of the round. He's a real beast when it comes to pounding out units, which will be the next step once he's snatched up enough land. I'd be surprised if he doesn't war with Roosevelt very soon. OTOH, I could just be paranoid . . .

Taking all those Barb workers with Chariots adds a new definition to "Barb farming"; may have to try this in one of my game, though the AI seems far more capable of hiding/protecting its Workers than before. In those rare times I get Horses, though, this could save a lot of Hammers.

I'd say trade for HBR. The AI just loves that tech, far as I can tell, so it won't stay on the table for very long. Anything you can get for it will be a bonus.
 
I don't have any suggestions, just a lot of newbie questions.

Why race to build a city in the desert which can only work a desert gold tile and coast? I understand that it's current location is less optimal than one tile south because it has two extra deserts and two less coastal tiles, but I don't understand why it is worth founding in either place.

Likewise, I don't see the advantage of settling a city in tundra and the one near it which gets two flood plains when there are more pressing matters like capturing the two GOOD barbarian cities nearby. I always figure I should settle the best land and let the AI build on the horsehockey spots.

I can't figure out why it was worthwhile to research Horseback Riding when you already had Swordsmen. One is good for taking cities, and it seems like you researched an expensive technology to get the one that is not good at taking cities so that you could create uber Camel Archers from hyper Horse Archers. What are uber Camel Archers good for? Are they as bad at taking cities as hyper Horse Archers are?
 
This game is fascinating. Soooo much trouble everywhere.


Anyway, my two cents:
1. I think slaze makes an excellent point regarding the lack of religion. With Monotheism in range, it might make a whole heck of a lot of sense to snap it up right away. It makes sense for your leader. It will also put you in charge of creating your brothers and sisters in faith. Lastly, the holy city (for the entire continent) will be an outstanding revenue source during the frequent and lengthy periods of war and and expansion on the horizon.

2. As for the two paths suggested by "our ursine friend" (hee!), my gut feeling is to go with the one that puts us in the best shape for war #2. If we can clean out Zara quickly now (at the very least grab his capital), will we still be prepared to go on the offensive with a big stack of the UU and trebs? Or, will a current Zara war make us miss the window for a war with the UU?

If we wait until we can fight our first war with the UU and Trebs, what are the odds that we can take out Zara so quickly that we would be able to turn around and use those units to pick up some prime real estate in the other direction?
 
slobberinbear hit the nail on the head. It's really that simple. War now or expand now and war later. War's coming either way. It would be a good idea to delay it until Sisiutil is in a better economic position. Build more cities. Grab those barbarian cities. Research currency and CoL. Then let's regroup and see where to take it from there.
 
Why race to build a city in the desert which can only work a desert gold tile and coast? I understand that it's current location is less optimal than one tile south because it has two extra deserts and two less coastal tiles, but I don't understand why it is worth founding in either place.

The southeastern city is to block Zara from settling to Sisiutil's south. The iron location and the two barb cities are necessary to take at some point to prevent AI expansion. Such AI moves would likely be from Sury, though Zara still has open borders with Arabia at the moment and could easily send a military or settlement stack to those areas.
 
I think you've set yourself up in a nice position. However, you're not safe yet. Emphasizing expansion over military was the right choice, and you've built up a nice empire. Now, you need to focus on military builds. Grab your next settled city, sure, but then go straight for units. You need them for three key reasons right now. First and foremost, you need to take those two barb cities regardless of your long-term goals. They'll be productive and you don't want someone else to have them. Second, you need to get your power rating up somewhat. It doesn't have to be higher than any AI (which is probably impossible) but don't be too far behind. Finally, you need to prep for an invasion of Zara.

Long-term, taking out Zara first, then either Roosevelt or Suvaryman is the right answer. Just be careful. If you look back at Aelf's games, he will often take until infantry to finish conquering his continent, just doing it 3-4 cities in a war at a time, piece-meal to make WW not too bad and to prevent too much war mobilization by his enemies.

Short-term, military, military, military, and also economic recovery. You did a fantastic job grabbing those barb. workers; they'll take a huge amount of pressure off of you hammer-wise. Send those on weapons. Yes, finish your expansion with the next 3 cities, but you need to start planning for a war against Zara now. Now, he's creative and has at least 3 wonders in his capitol. His cultural defense is going to be huge, so you will need construction to take him out. But! You ought to be aiming to do this quickly, so don't wait for construction to start preparing. Build up a large force (10-ish?) of axes/swords. I'd emphasize swords, as he doesn't have any metal - throw in a few spears in case he gets access to war elephants before you can really attack him. By the time you get construction that force ought to be finished, so you can start prepping your cats to begin attacking him. You said you're grabbing metal casting. Not a bad idea, but I might hold off on the forges until you finish your axe/sword army, just for power-graph purposes. It might even be worth holding off forges until after you finish your attacking army, just because of the delay. What I'd do is build up my axe/sword army then calculate the # of turns between then and finishing construction; if I can slip a forge in, great! If not, don't.

Tech-wise, maybe finish metal-casting, then immediately go currency, CoL, construction. You don't have any better options (except perhaps dropping metal casting, but as you say it's great trade fodder).

Edit: Two things to note. First, the only units Zara can build are archers (and longbows, if you let him get that far...don't), catapults, and elephants. I'd avoid attacking him with your UU. By the time you have access to it, he will have elephants, and knights don't love elephants.

Second, keep an eye on his access to metal via the trading screen. Check every 10 turns or so to see if osmeone is trading him metal. Shouldn't be a big deal, as you ought to kill him way sooner than he can trade, but it's worth noting.
 
^^? Zara has both Copper & Iron --> If war vs Zara then it's either now with 15-ish Horse Archers + ? Axes or muuuuuch later, probably with drafted Rifles.

Swords need Iron from the new tundra city, Cats take too long -- Zara will soon have Longbows->Elephants->Crossbows->OROMOs!

The extra happiness from the MIDs should be used to whip HAs like crazy. Spies vs Culture. That way or peace (hopefully) for a long time.

Edit: or a delayed protective archer rush ;) .
 
Vertical growth comes before anything. We want to whip horse archers? we don't have the population to do it. We want more military? Units costs are already at 9. You have the happyness, use it. It will make everything much more obtainable down the line.
 
I don't have any suggestions, just a lot of newbie questions.

Why race to build a city in the desert which can only work a desert gold tile and coast? I understand that it's current location is less optimal than one tile south because it has two extra deserts and two less coastal tiles, but I don't understand why it is worth founding in either place.

Likewise, I don't see the advantage of settling a city in tundra and the one near it which gets two flood plains when there are more pressing matters like capturing the two GOOD barbarian cities nearby. I always figure I should settle the best land and let the AI build on the horsehockey spots.

I can't figure out why it was worthwhile to research Horseback Riding when you already had Swordsmen. One is good for taking cities, and it seems like you researched an expensive technology to get the one that is not good at taking cities so that you could create uber Camel Archers from hyper Horse Archers. What are uber Camel Archers good for? Are they as bad at taking cities as hyper Horse Archers are?
The desert coastal city was, as slobberinbear said, highly recommended in order to block Zara from expanding into Arabia's southern regions. Looks like, short term, it worked. I concede the points regarding cultural pressure on it--I was thinking long-term rather than short-term there, putting it next to the oasis to get a fresh water bonus. We'll have to see what happens.

Your last two questions are related. I do NOT already have swordsmen, because I don't have a source of iron. That tundra city will snag the only iron resource within my reach, and will claim my first fish tile as well. I agree that you want to prioritize the best city sites, but sometimes you have to settle a marginal city just in order to claim a key resource.
 
I'm slightly confused about the fact that Zara demanded the Gems from Sisiutil while being pleased.:confused: I thought this would depend on the DemandTributeAttitudeThreshold which is set to CAUTIOUS for all leaders???

Or does this mean that his power is triple of Sis's?
Well then maybe a HA rush could be difficult.:cry:
 
A push to the north will probably be necessary to secure the territiory near the Gem and Dye resources on the western side of the continent.

If you can peacefully settle that area, then do...otherwise, aim for a quick strike at Roosevelt's cities in the center of the map.

As for Zara, I think a peaceful solution is desirable, especially with Representation. Try not to provoke a war, but be prepared for one.

Focus your offensive energies northward and your defensive energies eastward.
 
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