ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

In my offline games, I have found Zara to be an incredible REXer and techer. Without room to expand, I've seen him declare war. Let's hope it's against Roosevelt and not you.

Just remember that his UU, the Oromo Warrior, is actually a very nice Musketeer that is available fairly quickly after your Camels. The way he's teching, he may get to Gunpowder before you get to Guilds. If so, watch out. Those Oromos are powerful.
 
I rather like the idea of researching CS while building up EPs on Zara then sending my spies to steal MC. Sounds like the best way to leverage what we've done thus far--both building Mecca up to be a Bureaucracy capital, and settling that GSpy.
Leveraging sunk costs. A masterstroke.
 
I am bemused by your tech choices. You researched CoL despite not wanting to buiild its wonder, its courthouses and lacking the spare population to run a caste economy. You need construction and could have had several turns producing elephants and cats. You need forges to boost your bottom of the league production from metal casting. Researching MC and lightbulbing Machinery is making the best of the current situation - forges, crossbows and workshops

I also see this as a significant issue in this game. There doesn't seem to be a cohesive plan to tech choices in relation to an overall strategy. Writing was researched early to enable madrassas, but none were built for many turns. Then there's been an alternation of military techs and economic techs without having a idea how to use them. HBR-> Currency-> CoL-> Construction and now back to an economic tech CS. :crazyeye:

If you weren't going to attack now the military techs could have been deferred. If you're going to attack military techs should go before economic techs.

Other things I did based on your advice included shifting most of my cities to working as many food-rich tiles as possible, and breaking up my Worker pairs. The latter takes some getting used to, as I still prefer to have them work in pairs; when I move on onto another tile, I sometimes lose track of him and have to spend time figuring out where his erstwhile partner is supposed to go. But it does, indeed, save a Worker turn here and there, so it seems like a better way to manage the Workers even if it requires more micro-managment.

The point of not grouping workers in pairs is to avoid losing worker turns when moving into forests, jungles and hills and also to avoid losing a worker turn when completing odd-turn improvements. It doesn't help anything to ungroup the workers but to continue using them in pairs. :(

Normally I'm delighted to get one of the very rare and elusive Great Engineers, but I'm not sure what to do with this guy. The only unbuilt wonder I have access to right now is Chichen Itza--ugh. I guess it would tie in well with the Protective trait, but I still think it sucks as wonders go. I suppose I could build it in Najran to assist its culture, but still--it seems like a real waste of a GE to me.

As you can see the GE will lightbulb Metal Casting--which would take me all of 9 turns to research, so that seems far from optimal either. I could settle him, I suppose... but I'm thinking the best use for him would be to research MC on my own and then use him to lightbulb Machinery. Thoughts?

Using the GE to bulb Machinery is probably the best option, but you also can hold onto it until you research a tech that enables a wonder that you want. Using a GS to bulb Philosophy would let it build Angkor Wat, which could be useful if you intend to run lots of madrassa priests at some point. Although the lack of religions on the continent may make a priest heavy strategy less attractive in this game. GL might also be available.

With my whipping done, I switched to my newly-available civic:

Why Caste System now? You're not running more than 2 scientists in any city and aren't likely to for a while (other than in Mecca which really should be working max cottages instead). You should have either stayed in Slavery or switched to Tribalism to avoid the slave revolt random event and save 1 or 2 gpt in civic upkeep.

I rather like the idea of researching CS while building up EPs on Zara then sending my spies to steal MC.

I'm not sure about stealing MC. It looks like you have less than half the EPs you'll need, and even with all 16 EPs/turn directed against Zara you're probably 25-30 turns away from having enough.



Finally, you can cancel the pig<->fish trade with Zara now that Kufah's fish is hooked up. You really should be looking to avoid trading gold to Zara as it helps his happiness and also will be giving him extra hammers if he's building Shwedagon Paya.
 
I'd say research CE, steal MC, then bulb Machinery. While doing this, build catapults in anticipation of a war with macemen.

Alternatively, you could play it peaceful while rushing toward Nationalism and Rifling and then draft an army of Rifles. You have a good bit of yummy land to expand into, and it could work well to simply do that peacefully while anticipating a later take over of the rest of the continent.
 
It could be because I'm played a couple of off-line games at marathon speed and that's throwing me off back here on epic speed.
Once I tried marathon, I never looked back. :)

...and breaking up my Worker pairs.
...
But it does, indeed, save a Worker turn here and there, so it seems like a better way to manage the Workers even if it requires more micro-managment.
What this tells me is instead that the game needs a better UI:

Why not be able to merge two workers into a "double Worker" unit with double the capacity? That way, you wouldn't need to micromanage needlessly to get the maximum work out of your Workers if you (like me and Sis) like to have two Workers do each tile so things get finished while you still remember assigning the work orders!

Whenever extra micromanagement yields some improved output that means only one thing: more work should have been put into the GUI!
 
played more of my first marathon game today. Happy with the results of pwning two AI's with 10 axemen stacks.
 
Sisiutil said:
"Sury is now Pleased, which is nice, though I don't think with him it's any guarantee" ...

I recently had the sweetheart declare on me when he was allegedly +13 - though I guess the decision may have been taken when he was less delighted. And this was at Monarch when presumably the AI is slightly less unbiddable so I'd treat him as utter pscho.
 
Leveraging sunk costs. A masterstroke.

If you are referring to built up espionage, then I don't think this statement is true. Built up espionage against an opponent is not a sunk cost. It is better thought of as a price discount. That espionage potentially lowers the price research (a spy may be "cheaper" than self research), it could lower the price of seige (a spy bringing down walls may be cheaper than building catapults), etc.

I don't see anything wrong with Sis deciding it is optimal to take advantage of his price discount by building a spy to steal metal casting. If you were refering to something other than espionage, then I apologize for misinterpreting your remark (although there is not much to go on except a snide one liner!)

GS
 
If you are referring to built up espionage, then I don't think this statement is true. Built up espionage against an opponent is not a sunk cost.

I think the correct way to go about it, and possibly even the way he had been meaning it (at least, this is how I understood him), is to look at current espionage spending as what it's worth. If faced with the question to research MC completely when espionage otherwise comes up half way short, maybe the best thing to do is to get the other half of it through espionage with the slider. From a "sunk cost commerce" point of veiw, one option is better than the other when isolated from the whole (of the game).

The trouble with playing a "sunk cost" kind of game, and this is expanding on what others have said, is that it lacks direction. Using the slider to steal the other half of metal casting may be a better use of commerce than researching all of it, but where does this use of espionage fit in the long term goals.

But who knows, maybe those eps belong to city revolts; everyone seems to have been asking for that all along.
 
In my offline games, I have found Zara to be an incredible REXer and techer. Without room to expand, I've seen him declare war. Let's hope it's against Roosevelt and not you.

Just remember that his UU, the Oromo Warrior, is actually a very nice Musketeer that is available fairly quickly after your Camels. The way he's teching, he may get to Gunpowder before you get to Guilds. If so, watch out. Those Oromos are powerful.

Aren't camel archers immune to first strikes? If sis decides to steal machinery, then guilds should be the second tech he goes for. Fuedalism at this point is really important. If he tries defending with just archers and xbows he is going to get eaten alive. Drooping into vassalage for a while to build CG3 longbows would be prudent. 2-3 per city . More can be whipped at any danger points while the AI deal with walls and culture defenses. I haven't checked, Sis is building those cheap walls? They really help boost the power rating and since he is hammer poor they are a good investment vs hammers for troops on defense. I would build them rather than cats. If the AI has machinery then engineering can't be far behind. Cats take forever to take down castle defenses.
Being this far behing in military techs, I would advise walls/longbows and turtle up. Shoot towards Literature and use the GE on the GL. The sporatic jumping from tech to tech with no focus is really hurting. The only other fix would be teching mc, stealing machinery and bulbing engineering. You can name your price with a tech like that. Cheap castles will boost the settled spy and add more trade routes to boost the lagging economy.
Just make a plan and stick with it. Change course every 15 turn round is killing you. Once the courthouses are all whipped, run spies for science and EPs. I would bump the notch on Zibbadiibadooda. Medievil techs usually have a base around 4000
 
You need more workers. When you get MC workshops will fix your production faster than forges. Mecca shouldn't be running scientists. You need to get those cottages mature. work the remaining cottage and one mine. The boost from the market can really help. probably enough for a notch on the slider. If you work two riverside hamlets instead of running scientists, you only lose 7.5 net beakers but gain 4 food. That food will let you grow the three more pop you have under the happy cap.
Bagdad and Medina need those hills mined asap. They look to be two nice production cities. Gaul pops in 6 turns I would whip a Madrasa there and run as many scientists as possible so you can get an academy in Mecca.
NewYork and Philidelphia look yummy and it is Rosies only source of iron. No iron means no x-bows or knights.
Zippity Doda doesn't have too much on his hands right now. Noone does for that matter. So you're really not in any immediate danger.
 
Aren't camel archers immune to first strikes? If sis decides to steal machinery, then guilds should be the second tech he goes for. Fuedalism at this point is really important.

Yes, you're right about the Camels being immune to first strikes. And with their inherent 15% withdrawal chance (and some flanking promos thrown on), an Arabian SoD could consist of nothing but cats/trebs, camels, and longbows.

Key military techs: feudalism, guilds, engineering.
 
Yes, you're right about the Camels being immune to first strikes. And with their inherent 15% withdrawal chance (and some flanking promos thrown on), an Arabian SoD could consist of nothing but cats/trebs, camels, and longbows.

Key military techs: feudalism, guilds, engineering.


Pikes as well to limit collateral damage to the trebs. Couple of X-bows as well to counter attacks vs pikes. I doubt the AI would think of it. But cover Pikes would eat the Longbow/camel/treb stack alive. Though taking Philidelphia first eliminates that unless he can trade for iron with someone.
 
Unmined hills are, unfortunately, a consistent feature of Sisiutil's gameplay. I don't think Sisiutil has researched/traded for Monarchy, yet. Getting to Feudalism and Guilds before Zara and Sury decide the world's a better place without Roosy and facing a war against both of them alone will not be helped by going turtle. Not that using the protective walls money generation and switching into US and buying an army and buildings does have a certain appeal.

Building C I does deny its advantages to other Civs, though Sisiutil would then have to steal machinery and I don't think he's got the EPs he'd need.

Arabia is not tech leader nor is it power leader, so the timing of wars is not down to Sisiutil.
 
An alternative use of the Great Engineer is to go for Divine Right, and use him for the Spinal Mineret.

Hmm, I am not really convinced that this is a smart move myself.
 
What are the chances of bribing Sury into attack Zara, and then dogpiling Zara once his defenses have moved? (Or, alternatively, bribing Zara into attacking Roosevelt/Sury, and then attack him when his stacks have left home).

I haven't opened the save to see if anyone will take a bribe to war, but I have had some success doing so in the past. The problem of course is that you can end up with another civ taking the cities you were after, but it can be a great way to make a difficult war easy.
 
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