ALC Game #23: America/Lincoln

Ive got a quick question from waaaaaaay in the back of the peanut gallery. No no, over here :). Re: The Great Artist generated on turn 247. I agree Divine Right is pretty useless, as was the GA it could have spawned, but Im wondering why you chose to settle the GP instead of creating the great work. Consider: a game on epic is 1000 (?) turns, meaning you have approx. 750 turns left. The artist gives 12 culture/3 gold per turn. Over the last 750 turns, that is 9000 culture (and of course 2250 gold in total). Is the gold that important (even given the wartime economy) ? My point is you seem to have been able to create the great work, and get the full 9000 culture now, instead of a little bit at a time over the course of a game which, lets face it, isnt going the distance. They never do, win or lose. That immediate "culture shock", as I call it, might have flipped a tile or three to you, and the rest of the game Hatty would have taken back her own (former) tiles, if any at all. Anyhow, just curious.
 
One more thing, S man: you should rework the canal forts in NY area. You have a desert hill and a plains that could be used instead of the inland grassland tiles you're using now.
I'll have a look. I needed to irrigate the plains tile in order to chain irrigate the grassland tiles next to the planned fish city to the east of the canal.

Ive got a quick question from waaaaaaay in the back of the peanut gallery. No no, over here :). Re: The Great Artist generated on turn 247. I agree Divine Right is pretty useless, as was the GA it could have spawned, but Im wondering why you chose to settle the GP instead of creating the great work. Consider: a game on epic is 1000 (?) turns, meaning you have approx. 750 turns left. The artist gives 12 culture/3 gold per turn. Over the last 750 turns, that is 9000 culture (and of course 2250 gold in total). Is the gold that important (even given the wartime economy) ? My point is you seem to have been able to create the great work, and get the full 9000 culture now, instead of a little bit at a time over the course of a game which, lets face it, isnt going the distance. They never do, win or lose. That immediate "culture shock", as I call it, might have flipped a tile or three to you, and the rest of the game Hatty would have taken back her own (former) tiles, if any at all. Anyhow, just curious.


I've been told that settled GAs yield better results over the course of the game versus great works, because the great work is temprary but the settled GA's culture is permanent. Tough call, I think. Remember the settled GA yields 3 GPT, too.
 
My point is you seem to have been able to create the great work, and get the full 9000 culture now, instead of a little bit at a time over the course of a game which, lets face it, isnt going the distance. They never do, win or lose. That immediate "culture shock", as I call it, might have flipped a tile or three to you, and the rest of the game Hatty would have taken back her own (former) tiles, if any at all. Anyhow, just curious.

If I recall correctly in BTS they nerfed how the great works works so that the culture gets added to the city's total culture but not toward the tiles. So it helps with cultural victory or reaching the next cultural level but does not claim any tiles for you. The settled, on the other hand, contributes at a much slower pace to the city's total culture but at least can claim tiles.
 
I'll have a look. I needed to irrigate the plains tile in order to chain irrigate the grassland tiles next to the planned fish city to the east of the canal.
You can irrigate from Cuzco if you don't mind losing a ( non worked ATM ) workshop

@oedali:
If I recall correctly in BTS they nerfed how the great works works so that the culture gets added to the city's total culture but not toward the tiles. So it helps with cultural victory or reaching the next cultural level but does not claim any tiles for you. The settled, on the other hand, contributes at a much slower pace to the city's total culture but at least can claim tiles.
Spoiler :

That is not true.....
 
Little tip on Great Works: you want to (temporarily) crank culture as much as possible when you do a great work. The way that the mechanic works is that it does 20 rounds of adding 1/20th of the GA bomb culture to your tile control. However, each round it also adds the amount of culture the city is generating. In other words, you get the

value of the bomb + 20*current culture production

added to your tile control. So you will gain a lot more tiles if you crank the culture in the city as much as possible when you bomb it (artists, slider, build culture etc.).

Link to guide: Here
 
Another question on the GA / GP: you knew that you had a heavy civic switch coming up after the war. Did you think the culture boost to be worth more than 4 turns of your empire plus X turns golden age? (minus opportunity cost making the next GA more expensive)

Also, why didn;t you switch civics when you knew the war was won (ideally, 4 turns before actually winning it)? Better lose the turns with all the WW and extra maintenance costs going on than afterwards?
 
Another question on the GA / GP: you knew that you had a heavy civic switch coming up after the war. Did you think the culture boost to be worth more than 4 turns of your empire plus X turns golden age? (minus opportunity cost making the next GA more expensive)

Also, why didn;t you switch civics when you knew the war was won (ideally, 4 turns before actually winning it)? Better lose the turns with all the WW and extra maintenance costs going on than afterwards?

Regarding the GA, given my description of my mindset, I wasn't exactly engaging in a lot of long-term thinking.

I don't usually do civics switches, especially a bunch of them, before asking opinions here.
 
The bad news is, the last internet gambit was done on Monarch, so you're not one but two difficulties higher this time.

The good news is, you've got more catch-up / beeline time this time, and you're at peace a whole lot earlier (in ALC11, your war for good land didn't end until the 1860s, and most of the AIs had plastics by the time you started your beeline for the internet).

I've only played a few games of BtS, and usually don't last long enough (in a good way, I tend to win first) to know: Does BtS AI still mysteriously avoid Artillery? In Vanilla and Warlords, that was one of the best trade techs to grab in the late game. (In ALC11, brokering it netted you Democracy, Liberalism, Railroad, 700 gold, 2 world maps, and a bribe of Shaka into war vs. Tokugawa.)
 
One has won the war. One has vanquished "he of the Questionable Headdress". We rejoice in the blood spilled in One's victory. etc etc etc

Now then after much reviewing and such, I have devised "The Grand Plan" (short term version)
National Wonders:

Washington: NE without a doubt. You can run 16 specialists there at pop 29. Not too shabby. Especially since you haven't generated many because of the war. Get to Philosphising. NP might be a nice option as well. With the looming loss of Caste System due to "we demand emancipation", You may want to be able to load up on engineer type buildings. With library/grocer/market/observatory/forge/courthouse you can run 10 specialists. Labs are a ways off for the other two scientists but you can get a 4 more spies with a jail and a security bureau. Just something to consider.
Portland gets the Iron works. Not a river city, but post biology with SP it can run 2 grass farms and the corn. 6 mines, 5 grassland workshops, 1 plains workshop and 2 engineers and be food nuetral. It has both fresh water and coastal access for dealing with the health issues. The lack of rivers limits your choices. Portland can have 49 base hammers @ size 17.
Cuzco gets Wallstreet. Build banks. More banks. Catherdals in Cuzco and Tiwanka should be high priority.
Tiwanka gets Hermatage. If Hissyfit is building catherdrals in those cities your settled GA is not doing enough. You still don't have a full BFC even after running the culture slider during the war. So we can assume Hissy is upping the pressure.
Boston gets Oxford University. But before that happens, it gets to be the Capital. Politicians live in the capital. Politicians like lobster. Boston is famous for lobsters. Nuff said.
The next section is devised from a book I recently read. "CivCorpse's 35 Turns to a Smarter You", available in hardback at your local bookstore for $35.95

1. Finish "Rifling" (4 turns) and begin "Democracy" (14turns)
2. Begin working on libraries-> universities in your 4 biggest production cities. Even is this means putting other buildings already in production on the back burner.
3. Switch production in Washington to NE. If you work all the mines and workshops you can finish the NE in 15 turns. your next GP should pop on turn 17 or 18 of the round. it comes a little sooner because of the NE. Resume building the observatory.
4. After the university is finished in Boston, begin work on a Palace. Time it so that it finishes right at turn 18 or maybe a turn sooner. be sure to work the villiages 2S 1 NE and 2E so that they are towns by turn 18. This is very important. The other 2 villiages are not close enough to become towns by turn 18.
5. Trade for stone. I would not wait until later because someone might make him an offer for it so they can build the Pentagon. Several civs can research assemply line so this is quite possible.
6. Turn 18 arrives. Democracy is now finished as well as the GP from Washington. Burn him for a golden age.
7. Civics switch. Legal: Universal Sufferage. This is why you wanted those three villiages to be towns. Each one contibutes 2 hammers. with stone and Bureaucracy that is 21.5 hammers per turn with a forge building Oxford. over the course of a golden age that is about 250 hammers. Almost 1/2 the cost of Oxford.
Goverment: Bureaucracy. At this point, Free speech is not nearly as effective as Bureacracy. At the point of the save. Boston was producing 32 commerce for beakers @ 50% science. Under Bureaucracy that is an additional 16 commerce. It would require 8 towns through out the country to match that. That is not counting the growth of Bostons 5 villiages to towns or the 2 cottages that still haven't developed. add in the fact that your other commerce cities do not yet have all the commerce bonus buildings and Boston is the clear winner. And will be for quite some time. You only have 3 cities feeling serious cultural pressure. None of which is in serious trouble.
Labor. Caste system. this is probably your last chance to really max out with caste system as more civs embrace Emancipation. Atleast until you quit being a naughty world villian.
Economy and Religion remain the same.
8. During the golden age, max out scientists in Washington until stagnation while finishing Observatory. You may wish to rush it with gold while you are in U.S. The current cost is only 282 gold. You can run 8 scientists and still work one mine @-1 food for the duration of the GA. 26 GPP with the 2 ga points from NE. 26GPp times4 for the NE/GA/Philotrait means 102 per turn. You should have another GP by the end of the GA. Most likely a GS. Use him for an academy in Boston. Even this late in the game you will get more return than bulbing.
Main production cities should get the remaining banks in order for Cuzco to build Wall Street. With the exception of Portland and Norfolk. They should be spamming frigates. It is more hammer efficient to fight JC on the ocean than on land. I would build a caravel to go snoop around Roman lands to find his stack-o-ships. When they leave port, see if they head in your direction. If they do, then attack him on the high seas. It will cost you a diplo hit with giggles and shaka but you really can't afford to stop your infrastructure building to spam rifles and cannons.
Once Atlanta is finished it's granary, set it to infinite missionary spam. It is fairly centrally located and should be able to spread missionaries to all of your cities. once your cities have Taoism, let Tiwanka spam them to the AI. Currently 23 cities have taoism. Taoism is in 11% of the world. Buddism is in 45% of the world. that means it is in 92 cities. With a market/bank/grocer hissyfit is getting 184gpt from her shrine. Click on Cuzco, how much are you getting? Do the math for Buddism again, then click on Cuzco and stare at the screen. Continue doing this until you decide to build cash bonus buildings in Cuzco.
9. At the end of the GA Switch to Emancipation. Stay in U.S. so you can rush buy cheaper buildings in your hammer poor cities since you lose the whipping ability. Other than Washington, you are running very few specialists so the benefits of representation are pretty weak compared to U.S. as Emancipation gets more cottages up to towns you start getting some nice hammer output from towns. This can help offset the lack of levees for commerce cities. Bureaucracy will be your best bet until you have 20+ towns in cities with all the science/gold multiplier cities built.
10. Tech path. Steel ( you need portland's ironworks up and running and it takes a trillion years to build.)-->Sci method( if you get a 2nd GS while teching steel this would be a good place for him)--> Biology ( you want a big ole population and it maximises washington and portland)--> physics--->electricity---Radio--->mass media. I wouldn't worry about contaminating the GP pool with artists. They can be used to help bulb radio and mass media. With your tech deficit space is pretty much out of the question. So a diplomatic win might be your best shot.
11. About the above mentioned diplomatic win. The best case scenario is building the UN yourself. If someone besides you or Hissfit builds the Un, you're in a bad spot. She has a larger population than you do, so you won't even be a canidate. If shaka builds it and you surpass Hissyfit in population (which you probably will since you have a lot of room left for vertical growth) then you are in deep doo-doo, because Hissy, hammy and giggles all think shaka is just super spiffy. they love you too, but they love him more. So Mass Media is definately your goal. If you get it reasonably close to when the AI gets it, then Portland should be able to crank it out. Consider dropping science to 0% as soon as you get MM, in case you can rush buy it with U.S. It's expensive so you will have to build most of it manually. but if you get lucky with a GE you can use him for 1/2 as well. Also no more trading with JC. it makes Hissyfit sad. He is a meany and she hates him. If it you pass her in population you may need her votes. Once the UN is built. i would switch to HR. it is Gilgameshes favorite civic. And Bureaucracy is hammy's favorite civic. you should have some nice bonuses built up with him by then. I would avoid researching Facism so Shaka doesn't start asking you to switch.

Nit-picky little thingies.
1. there are 3 workers building a farm 1SE of Berkley. That hamlet is 9 turns from becoming a villiage. The cottage 2E of Kansas City is 9 turns from becoming a hamlet. Perhaps farming there would be better. Other wise you are 30 turns farther behind on the quest for another town. unless of course you planned on farming them both.
2.With regard to the fort canal near New york. It really isn't needed anymore. If JC or Zara attack it will be on your western coast. also Portland will be able to crank out naval units pretty quickly with ironworks and a dry dock. it is only 3-4 turns around for frigates and destroyers can zip there in a turn or two. Better off using that land for farms and workshops.
3. Whip a workboat in Trenton. Then send it east to Seattle's fishies. Then you can whip the light house much sooner. with a lighthouse seattle can work 3 plains workshops pre SP. It can be the northern taoist missionary spammer, Working the incense isn't worth the hammers invested for so few beakers.
4. I disagree with breaking up the Buddist block. It is keeping you alive. A DP with Giggles is a good thing. If you are JC's target it would be nice if someone else were there to help. If JC attacks, you really have nothing to trade to bring anyone else into the war. And if the former buddist start a war with each other they will ask you to join. and you'd be nuts to say yes. They will have tanks and you're too advanced to build the counter for tanks :spearman:
5. Switching to OR, boosts your relationship with crazy hatty. But since she will be your likely opponent in the Un vote, then your current status with her is enough for now. Because dropping from Theocracy will put you at -1 with zara. Which will probably be "annoyed" with just one tile seperating your empires he is a little close for comfort. Positioning some caravels by his cities to check for naval build up would help. Soon the close borders penalty will start. You can't afford to lose the +5 for civics with him. And it is another reason for the DP with giggles.
6. if you get a GM from the melting pot of a GP farm washington is going to become a trip towards medicine might be in order.
7. If you decide not to go with U.S. after the GA (or even during it) then HR for the diplo bonus with Gilgamesh. The problem with switching in and out is the bonus starts all over again so it's up to you. But by the time the Un is built it should be pretty strong again. If you're going CE from here on out then Representation is pretty weak. Only one city really benefits from it for a long time. And for a diplomatic victory the HR bonus with giggles will be important.
8. once new york builds a bank and a university. it should start spamming rifles then cannons. Shaka isn't too thrilled with zara and may DOW. The AP might decalre war on the infidels. And it would help if you have some troops for JC.
9. Eventually workshop the elephants by Portland. Ivory is going to be obsolete soon anyways.
10. As soon as Boston gets oxford start cottaging the forests and windmilling the hills. The hammers from the forests can go towards an observatory and boston really doesn't need any more buildings.
11. I wouldn't settle any GP's GE for the UN, GA's for radio/MM GS for scimeth/biology GM for sid's. Any GP's that show up betond those save for GA's to tech faster/build the Un faster.
 
Very impressive Sis... Down with the AP! Raze it! RAZE IT NOW!!!! I kick the problems at their source, not one of their causes and the foolish civ who builds it gets erased from history just the same way Monty did here. Though I didn't think of renaming the cities, something I will consider in future.

Meh maybe another game for project 'Burn the AP'. You could always nuke it for late game revenge I suppose, but that depends on whether you want revenge, or whether you actually want to win the game. Nukes/Seals might be doable, but I think there's a safer option.

UN Diplomatic seems the most viable way to win this one. You can always use the UN to control the civics of the other leaders to your advantage if you aren't getting the votes you need. Conquering Caesar might also be an option for more votes, but seriously the problem with playing on Immortal with a civ that has a good late game unit is that you probably won't get to use it if you actually want to win.
 
I would ignore any beeline for the UN at this point. You have far more land than Hatty so by the time the UN gets built, you will have more population than her (and thus be the opposing candidate). It's simply not worth it to waste techs on a mass media beeline here when you know you're going to be one of the candidates. As for engineering an AP victory, it's going to be quite a hassle shipping missionaries around the world to the colonies that are springing up.

I would try a beeline for the internet and robotics. You have enough land so that you can bulldoze over any AI that try to win if you can get to mech infantry before their VC. Honestly, I don't think you'll be able to get to the internet in time with this tech deficit as the BtS AI tends to place a slightly higher priority on it than the earlier AI versions. Instead, I would try to find a way to undergo the industrial revolution (factory + coal plants) ASAP so that you can rapidly grow your empire.

The techs that I would prioritize are democracy, communism, biology, and AL.

And yes, definitely change civics during a GA - 4 turns is way too long. I would also try to engineer a way of destroying the buddhist block. It's going to be very difficult to win the game otherwise as friendly AI tech whore pretty bad amongst themselves.
 
I'm thinking a good way to go would be to aim for a Diplo victory by maintaining good relations with the other "larger" civs. As others have advised, I don't think a beeline to UN is necessary. You'll certainly be the population leader (and a candidate by default), and by dragging out the game a little more, we can get a good look at America's UU and UB.

What does the peanut gallery think of this plan:

1) Continue expansion by acquiring land through war, one civ at a time, to grow the empire. Aim for State Property.

2) Choose war targets by switching to FR and getting your targets to adopt free religion as well so as not to incur Buddhist Bloc negative diplo modifiers when you declare. Buddhist allies will not incur negative religion modifiers with you, and you can go back to being Buddhist to improve relations with them. You really no longer need to be at "Friendly" status with everyone, as WFYABTA is pretty moot with just about everybody so far ahead of you in techs - you likely won't be able to make trades. To choose your targets, find the most tech advanced opponent (to prevent space race victory) or the largest, most-loved opponents (to prevent them from being your opponent in the UN election - although you'll have to finesse it so that they're not "quite" as loved when you declare on them)

3) Focus research on war techs to maintain parity/have an edge on your opponents. You don't need to wipe out Caesar and Zara (Saladin & Charlie) just because they're a little backwards - it would be an easy way to expand your empire, but you wouldn't be going for domination, here. You can kick their butts anytime, and you might want to keep their civs around (Caesar for tech trades for cash, Zara maybe to set up as your UN opponent?)

5-13(?) Pick off other civs/colonies one at a time

14) Head for Mass Media/UN ASAP if another civ is getting close to a victory.
 
Thanks for all the advice so far.

I know I often get criticized for not devoting myself to a specific victory condition early enough, but I like to leave my options open. I'm deliberately going to avoid a AP win because I did that once before and it's cheesy, and I'd like to see the UU and UB in action.

I just came out of a war; typically in Civ IV that puts you in a bit of a hole. Let's see if I can climb out of that hole and then see where I stand before we decide upon a victory condition to pursue.
 
I like whakamole's plan, but I still think domination is viable if you can reach your UU while it's still useful against the island nations and then mech infantry for your own continent. It all depends on how fast you can get yourself out of your tech hole. In 3.17 it might be even easier to achieve this victory since the vassal threshold is lower than before so you'll need to inflict far less damage to pull off the land requirement. And you remember how the whole snowball effect of taking vassals goes..
 
If MM is going to be delayed. Then I think steel for cannons first. Then SM-->Bio--> medicine for sids should be considered. It will ensure a massive population and the culture boost will definately help with the three cities feeling the squeeze. Though I still like my 35 turn plan for getting the beakers up.
 
Thanks for all the advice so far.

I know I often get criticized for not devoting myself to a specific victory condition early enough, but I like to leave my options open. I'm deliberately going to avoid a AP win because I did that once before and it's cheesy, and I'd like to see the UU and UB in action.

I just came out of a war; typically in Civ IV that puts you in a bit of a hole. Let's see if I can climb out of that hole and then see where I stand before we decide upon a victory condition to pursue.

IMO, your only way to score a non-diplomatic win at this point is to cottage up heavily, get the cottage-boosting techs, and try to use your newfound land advantage to power-tech your way back into technological relevance. Coupled with a few key trades, of course.

To keep the slider up, consider selling your new bounty of surplus resources for gold per turn.

If you can get close tech-wise, you somehow have to separate Shaka from his Buddha buds. You can't defend against his massive army and compete with Hatty's spaceship at the same time.
 
Hatty would never convert as she founded two religions. The taoist conversion of hammy would work.

Civcorpse makes a good point about Hatty's shrine income. Take it for yourself. You could take Hatty as a vassal and she'd still be your friend. JC would never like you very much.

I think you've pretty much decided to load up specialists in Washington to generate your next GP in 9 turns and will start a golden age. If you max science specialists in NY it would shave a turn of rifling. There are other cities that could and should run specialists. Whilst in the GA you could run pacifism(vassalage to mitigate increased army cost) to hasten the next GP and change to OR/nationalism before coming out of the GA. An Islamic missionary can wander over Egypt during a 30-50 turnset where you get to AL, steel and mil trad., bulbing Sci Meth and part of physics and then look to take Hatty or be ultra aggressive and go mil trad after rifling and raise a horde of cavalry and sweep through Hattyland. Caution is probably best.
 
Regarding next techs:

I rather like Validator's suggestion of Rifling -> Steam Power -> Assembly Line. I think AL will make good trade bait, which may in turn provide additional techs for a round of tech brokering to catch up. The downside is that Democracy will almost definitely not be available for the upcoming Golden Age, so a switch to Emancipation will either have to await a second Golden Age (further leveraging Philosophical here) or (shudder) a few turns of anarchy--ditto for State Property. (America running SP? Well, I did say the ALCs aren't about role-playing!) In the meantime I'll have to find other ways to manage the lingering AP unhappiness, especially in New York, which seems hardest hit.

Espionage:

I was also thinking of devoting EPs initially in a counter-intuitive way, towards Zara's two vassals. Why? Well, they're the least advanced civs who still have techs I don't. I want to avoid researching the same techs they are, so knowing what their researching would be valuable. Knowing what Hatty and Hammy are researching won't do me much good just yet.
 
Hatty would never convert as she founded two religions. The taoist conversion of hammy would work.

Civcorpse makes a good point about Hatty's shrine income. Take it for yourself. You could take Hatty as a vassal and she'd still be your friend. JC would never like you very much.

I think you've pretty much decided to load up specialists in Washington to generate your next GP in 9 turns and will start a golden age. If you max science specialists in NY it would shave a turn of rifling. There are other cities that could and should run specialists. Whilst in the GA you could run pacifism(vassalage to mitigate increased army cost) to hasten the next GP and change to OR/nationalism before coming out of the GA. An Islamic missionary can wander over Egypt during a 30-50 turnset where you get to AL, steel and mil trad., bulbing Sci Meth and part of physics and then look to take Hatty or be ultra aggressive and go mil trad after rifling and raise a horde of cavalry and sweep through Hattyland. Caution is probably best.

The point was not to take hatty's shrine but to develop his own. Hatty has a major tech lead. by the time S built his army he would be facing infantry and artillery with rifles and cavalry.
 
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