ALC Game #23: America/Lincoln

[kazapp]

Two minor things,

You write "the swing votes in the ALC" but probably mean "AP".

You show two identical Shaka deals (where he gives you Combustion).

Great job, Sis. FWIW, I have no problem with you choosing your own alternate reality.

Though I don't mind much, I guess you're aware the usefulness of a thread like this would possibly go down for some people were you to announce you would start reloading saves and the like. Playing an alternate reality can be a very educational experience, and there's plenty of ALC maps/starts where it would have been very interesting to see variant early strategies. Still, you might lose some viewers...

 

[Mukuu]

Im actually not to happy with this layout. Yes, you could probably win right now, go for Space or Diplo... but there is a problem. Your not trying to win, your trying to show how to use a leader and his UU and UB. Which brings us to the problem of Immortal *cough* which I mentioned before *cough*. When you hit Immortal, things become a little more cookie cutter, ESPECIALLY late game. Late game is where the American UU and UB come to play, so, there is not much use for them (more specifically the UU). While you have showcased the leader traits fairly well (charismatic mostly), I think a better job, and more educational job, could have been done on Emperor. I know I am saying all of this a little early (the game isn't over yet), but I wanted to get my two cents in.

I also understand that some of the problem was out of your control (the Buddhist block), which makes it difficult to late game war also... but...

Otherwise, good job Sis.

Also, I am of the opinion that if you redo something, keep the redo, not the original. You did a redo for a reason. Dont start the journey unless you want to see the destination. If you were going to throw away the redo if you had a bad game, you shouldn't have done a redo in the first place.

 

[LightSpectra]

So how are you going to use your UU? To finish of Caesar if he's still alive at the end of the game, or perhaps a war with Hatty?

 

[Rusten]

When you hit Immortal, things become a little more cookie cutter, ESPECIALLY late game.

This isn't necessarily true. You can play in completely different ways and still win immortal games. You could argue that Sisiutil isn't comfortable enough on immortal to do this yet, but it is not a difficulty level thing.

Examples of non- cookie cutter immortal games is ungy's SG series. The first one was an all-espionage game where we could only research early worker techs and alphabet (no tech trading either (allowed for AI)) and the second installment banned any whipping and drafting. Both games were won and they were far from cookie cutter games. The variants were decided before seeing the maps so you can succesfully roleplay and similar on this level as well.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

plus he can do more or less anything since the game was won long time ago...

 

[shyuhe]

Nice job on the tech recovery. It looks like the game is in your hands and it's up to you to choose a VC now. The only thing I'd watch for is to make sure no AI is pursuing a cultural victory.

 

[Mukuu]

This isn't necessarily true. You can play in completely different ways and still win immortal games. You could argue that Sisiutil isn't comfortable enough on immortal to do this yet, but it is not a difficulty level thing.

Examples of non- cookie cutter immortal games is ungy's SG series. The first one was an all-espionage game where we could only research early worker techs and alphabet (no tech trading either (allowed for AI)) and the second installment banned any whipping and drafting. Both games were won and they were far from cookie cutter games. The variants were decided before seeing the maps so you can succesfully roleplay and similar on this level as well.

I retract that statement. I definitely made an error in judgment there, sorry sis. Still, Im worried about how we are going to use the UU efficiently... maybe just forget about it and use it with another American might be your best bet. Im not going to edit out my statement though... just because it is a reminder to me not to be an SOB.

Think before acting.

I still mean what I say with the redo thing.

In the future, Im going to use more constructive criticism instead of just criticism.

Sooo.... (Can I get a Victory Conditions screenie? My Civ IV isnt working right now... Stupid Vista...)

First - Dont accept peace, I dont think 110 gold is worth it for any victory right now.

If we want Domination... - The war machine needs to spring to life... NOW. Also, you need to go FR and the UN needs to be built (FR after UN after war machine). Stay on your continent, Hatty and continue from there. Specifically target hammer cities and cultural cities... I didnt look at cities culture... but hammers for space is a problem. Dont start declaring on people until AFTER UN. You dont want to be Julius Ceaser now do you!

If we want Diplomatic - Well... your on the right track. Just keep up what you are doing, and you will get it for sure. Just try to make sure it happens before space.

If you want space - Ehhhh... Then build libraries and other science buildings... 100 turns ago. This one may be difficult. In my experience, the AI slacks a little in building the parts... but not enough to not be worried. You may have to do a little warring to get this one... Not sure even where to start with it.

@ Rusten - Two things, thanks for the examples, and nice job with the Aztec Deity win! Im still trying to so the math on HOW you got so many beakers... insanity.

EDIT: I wouldnt love this game if it was cookie cutter! I dont think anyone would!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

And on top of that, I was continuing to get excellent advice. So much good advice, in fact, that I began to think that a round I played based on very little ALC feedback could have gone even better if I re-played it based on even more feedback. I usually don't do that, but I've been playing and posting pretty quickly this time, so I thought, hmm, let's be fair to everyone and I'll replay the round and incorporate even more of these good ideas and it will all turn out even better!"

With all due respect to CivCorpse, Scarredroman, sylvanllewelyn, and the rest of you... but when I re-played those turns following your advice, things turned out worse. A lot worse.

Two reasons why your first attempt was far more successful than your second attempt:
1) You chose one piece of advice (assembly line)
2) You did not try to follow all of the advice at the same time

Not trying to argue but, I'm just saying that I really did not foresee the most backwards tech in the world declaring war right into a defensive pact, that's all man.

 

[Scarredroman]

Redos are never straight copies. When you reload from a save, the ai changes what it does. AL enabled you to close the gap in a significant way in your first game.

Saladin is closing the power gap between you, rapidly. It's possible that he intends to take over Rome and break free of his bondage to Zara. Sending some troops to gain Rome's capitulation would depend on having enough transportation to ship sufficient troops over there. I tihink it's only a matter of time before the UN gets built. You may have two or three opportunities to 'DOW the Heretics' and plunge the Buddhist bloc into war with the ROTW.

Well, you decided not to go pacifism/vassalage in the GA, put the Globe into NY, Oxford into Washington nor Wall Street into Boston. You wanted the hammers for other things and yoiu had a lot to build and still do. Many of your cities are in need of health, though I hope you've put a drydock into Norfolk and the other coastal production cities.

Industrialization should net you Radio, Fission, Medicine and Rocketry. If you were to have GE, the 3 Gorges would provide power to all your cities. Hatty is after space victory, I think, so she may not trade Rocketry to you.

I'd like to see you take out Hatty, but I don't think you can. Not in the next 35-55 turns.


I hope you've been sending that scout all over the continent to look at garrison sizes and try to glean clues as to what the other civs are up to.

 

[Peachrocks]

Hmm... if you are going for space why don't you go for refrigeration then for super conductors for the labs for better tech and faster shipbuilding?

Use your next golden age to build up great merchant points to try get Cereal mills since Sid Sushi is out (another reason to get fridge ). By the looks of it you can get quite a lot of corn and friends back by trading (I dunno for sure, but you seem to have traded it a bit and even a small amount can help a lot). Switch the Pacifism while you are in Golden age to get the merchant faster and switch back if you want to stay in OR afterwards. You'll lose happy points with Hatty, but you've got plenty with her as it is, so unless you plan on pursuing a diplomatic victory I wouldn't worry too much about switching out of OR.

No one else has fridges yet, Gilgamesh does have Industrialism so I wouldn't pursue that. I really think a late game domination is out of the question as Sis is a good way off it. Save the UU for another leader... there are two more of them after all even if Washington is at the very very end . Fridge also unlocks the UB if im not mistaken.

If you decide go with Fridge and get cereal mills follow up with...

Put Cereal mills into Cuzco and build wall street there (hey, usually I AM building wall street in Cuzco, but not because the Incans are conquered , it must be a sign!) while placing Oxford into Washington. Globe should go to NY. Stay Buddist until the AP is obseleted, going FR means you lose votes. Spam labs everywhere.

Labs will really help you I think, you are getting close to being the tech leader. With Labs established as well as wall street, oxford, cereal mills here and there, I think you'll win the game from there...

However that's coming from a guy who's only won on Emperor once but it was by a close space race just like this (and yes I built cereral mills and wall street in Cuzco that game too ). I should really have something in my signature about being obsessed with putting Incans into space .

 

[Kietharr]

110g is a paltry sum, send as many troops as you can muster transports for and start razing/pillaging crap on Caesar's continent for cash that will help a GA spending spree, check after every attack to see if he will capitulate. Keeping him under your thumb will put you closer to a domination win should you so choose that path. He will probably capitulate to someone before WW starts to really set in for you so that's not a HUGE issue.

Hatty is your main competitor, she already has rocketry . Conveniently, she's right on your border and will like you less if you switch to FR anyways. Once she goes down to pleased and WFYBTA starts kicking in destroy her.

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

An internet beeline isn't a bad idea, just because you're near tech parity now. It would allow you to focus on space techs and pick up the diversion techs anyways. Also keep in mind you're getting close to "We would rather win the game," and tech brokering will become less important as you go along.

Seals could still help in a space race, as they would help your power rating, and be an insurance policy in case you need to emergency-raze a few AI cities.

 

[slobberinbear]

Consider prioritizing the Christo Redentor, to allow you to do whatever you need to do civics-wise in the endgame. Why? Emancipation and Universal Suffrage should be on your plate soon, possibly with Free Religion once the AP obsoletes.

I have a hard time seeing this end in a Domination or Conquest victory, due to the power and friendliness of the Buddha bloc. And Zara + Julius' land will not be enough for Domination, but ...

The fact that you won the AP bodes well for a possible U.N. victory. Why not take out Zara and Julius (showcasing SEALs) and see about a diplo win?

 

[CivCorpse]

Well, you decided not to go pacifism/vassalage in the GA, put the Globe into NY, Oxford into Washington nor Wall Street into Boston.

Oxford should go into La Jolla or Boston. If Sis switches out of Rep in favor of U.S. then Washington loses a lot of base beakers. If he stays in rep. He can farm and windmill the rest of boston for scientists. As it stands the only reason Washington has more beakers is because it has an academy. Sis will get another GP is 24 turns. Since he probably won't be starting a GA in that time he should scoot the GS up to boston for an academy.

 

[Validator]

Wow. We've seen lot's of tech trading/brokering in the ALCs before, but that was truly impressive.

At this point it looks like victory is your if you don't screw it up.

In looking at the save I did notice that a lot of your coastal cities are defended by only a single obsolete unit. The current diplomatic situation makes a DOW unlikely, but if that changes the defense situation needs to be dealt with ASAP.

In terms of going for a space win (if diplo doesn't work out), your GNP rate is still behind all of the leading AIs. You've got quite a few cottaged tiles that will still mature, but I don't see you out-teching Immortal AIs. For that reason I would go ahead with trying for the Internet. It'll help with fill-in techs and keep you from falling too far behind.

 

[Der Graf]

Early in the round, an AP vote came up. Some of you recommended that I vote in favour of the proposition, whatever it was, as this would restore me to Full Member status in the AP from the Voting Member status I currently had thanks to defying several resolutions. By the way, would anyone care to spell out all the differences between the two different types of memberships?
[...]

The Civilopedia spells it out quite fine:

 

[ori]

The Civilopedia spells it out quite fine:

only that as usual its wrong

Full member: a player that either owns the AP AND/OR has the AP religion as his state religion. Is eligible for Resident votes.
Voting member: a player that has the AP religion present in at least one city AND either is not a full member because he does not fulfill the above OR has defied a resolution. Is not eligible for Resident votes.

Votes are NOT doubled by being a full member - this solely depend on whether you run the AP religion as your state religion. If you do your votes are doubled. Note: someone can be a voting member and have his votes doubled (i.e. runs the AP religion as state religion but has defied a resolution) as well as being a full member and not have his vote doubled (i.e. owns the AP but does not run the AP religion as his state religion).
So as in many cases: the Civilopedia reflects the design choices early in development and not the actual implementation

 

[Sisiutil]

I think it really is time to firmly decide on a victory condition, both because it's getting late and because it will determine my direction in the next round.

Consider techs, for example. One other civ already has Industrialism and given the general chumminess, I think it's going to get traded around before I'm able to research it myself and get anything for it. Circumstances are similar for Refrigeration. Both techs are highly desirable, of course, especially because they unlock the UU--but Steel, Biology, and Democracy were all highly desirable in the previous round, yet I didn't have to research any of them myself.

So what tech should be pursued next? If we decide to pursue a late domination win, for example, then I think Flight would be an appropriate tech to research. It's very expensive and valuable and I should be able to use it to gain other techs. It's also relevant to that win.

If the goal is space race, however, then as we all know, Flight is (surprisingly) irrelevant. Rocketry might make sense, though I'd be reluctant to trade it for obvious reasons. Frankly, this is still the Immortal AI that's zipping through the tech tree, I still have a lot of infrastructure to build, so the Internet is still looking attractive. In that case, Industrialism, Plastics, Radio, and Computers are needed.

Radio might be worthwhile for trade bait an other reasons, and who knows, with the Ironworks about to be built in Portland, I just might be able to snag one of its wonders. Just keep in mind that Hatty has a significant lead on me there.

I also need a clear plan for those very important national wonders, which have been left very late thanks to the war effort. Ironworks in Portland as I said. Wall Street in Cuzco? I want to try to generate another Great Prophet there, after which, rather than cottaging, I was thinking of making all the priests into merchants. National Epic in Washington, obviously. Oxford--in Washington to benefit from all the scientists it can run, or in Boston to benefit from all the towns? And West Point? I'd prefer it in another coastal production city. I was thinking Tacoma. Which leaves NY's canal relevant, since both military cities are on the SW coast.

Anyway, to avoid a repeat of the "alternate reality" scenario I encountered in the last round, I'll wait until there's been a little more debate. I suspect I'll play the round on Monday night, after several of you have come here to comment during a slow day back at work.

 

[r_rolo1]

I would tech to radio, to boost the Mall with the hits and use the wonder factor to get good deals out of it ( i would not be surprised if you could pick Ref and Ind out of it ), then go for the net. IMHO this is a good scenario for a SS win ( a thing that you don't do that often EDIT: In fact you haven't won via SS in BtS ... last SS win was ALC 13, with mansa in Warlords. If you hadn't noticed ,BtS SS wins are a little diferent from Warlords ones )

 

[Polobo]

If you can stay around 60-70% science slider I would think running Oxford in a cottage city would be more desirable. If you do get another great prophet I assume you are going to build another shrine which would hopefully allow you to further up the slider further emphasizing a commerce based Oxford city.