ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

In all honesty, the praise and appreciation far surpasses any posts which are critical so I really feel no need to add to the pile. In fact, those kinds of posts are so widespread that the posts which are interesting, either because they offer strategic outlook or entertainment, are far between at some stages in each game. Were you to get few suggestions, or posts of appreciation, I would have an opportunity to give them.

So don't be discouraged, otherwise I'll be forced to load up my posts with emoticons and felate you like everyone else. And that's not as entertaining as rhyming quickness and ridiculous to some people.

Much love.

Your criticism would be a bit more acceptable if you made the occasional suggestion BEFORE a round. It is easy to sit back after the fact and point out less than optimal play. As a commited praiser/felator I usually just skip over your posts as they are basically nit-picky hindsight that do nothing for the series.
Also, "quickness" and "ridiculous" do not rhyme. Though I am only noticing after it has been posted. You didn't have that luxury while you were writing it because you were under pressure from looking through your thesaraus (which also does not rhyme with "quickness" or "ridiculous") in search of a word before your parents told you to turn off the light and go to bed.
 
I think the outcome of this game will be decided in the next round (or two), assuming you go after Justinian. By the looks of it he will be pretty tough to take down, moreso due to the geography rather than his power, especially with that long border you're both sharing now. Personally, I doubt it's possible to take him out in a single war -- I'd probably try to take 4 or 5 of his NW cities whilst protecting the SE border. After a few turns of peace I'd hit him again, maybe going for an amphibious assault on his core cities, as by this stage any counter-attacks he throws at you will be more easily repelled. Curious to see how this one pans out because it looks like Hannibal is also looming as a winner here. Good luck with it :D .

Take a long look at that border. It is mostly mountain ranges. Taking two cities seals Justinian in with regards to a land counter attack. Rather than taking 4-5 NW cities and expanding Justinian's choices for counter attack, the amphibious assault should begin immediately. Taking Justinian's core cities and working up the pennisula until taking Nicea the choke point at the top. At this point Justinian will probably Capitulate. I would accept this and move on towards Mehmed via Pacal. That is if Justinian is the initial choice. I prefer a surgical strike on Pacal while razing Jelling. Jelling is a culture swamped turd of a city. With Hannibal in hibernation Pacal is the tech leader. Removing him seriously hampers Mehmed. With an adequete Babylonian navy Mehmed is no threat to the Babylonian lands. Someone mentioned the threat of him building a space ship. He has the tech but lacks the production to be a serious threat.
 
Such an address, in more generalized terms, ought to be made to the whole world.
I disagree that criticism about what was done is less instructive than offering suggestions, which anyone can do without thought, but agree that being a negative nelly is not nice and nice is what the ALCs are about.

Corpse said:
Your criticism would be a bit more acceptable if you made the occasional suggestion BEFORE a round.
Sweet.

5 posts of after-the-fact criticism:
ALC 24: Hammurabi
ALC 24: Hammurabi
ALC 22 Take 2: Saladin
ALC 22 Take 2: Saladin
ALC 22 Take 2: Saladin

9 occasional suggestions before the round, also known as worthless-what-I-would-do-voting-which-there-is-sometimes-too-much-of:
ALC 24: Hammurabi
ALC 24: Hammurabi
ALC 24: Hammurabi
ALC 24: Hammurabi
ALC 22 Take 2: Saladin
ALC 22 Take 2: Saladin
ALC 21: Shaka
ALC 20: Ragnar
ALC 20: Ragnar

20 miscellaneous posts contributing to the discussions of mechanics and decision-making also known as since-you-made-me-sort-my-post-history:
City settling
Avoid Growth
Avoid Growth
Building uniques for the leverage points
Responding to a poster
Unstrategic observation
Early optimal tile management
Feudalism, more like Uselessudalism
For the leverage points
Defending Sisutil
Response to a poster
Protective is like being homeless
Anyone else notice: another unstrategic observation
Tailor-made great person farm
Worker Steal
Just unconstructive mocking for entertainment purposes
Take 2-Can't Lose
Stop criticising Sisutil for not following your stupid advice
Phew, I think I lost too
Is this Strategy and Tips?
 
Hey, Sis, could we get you to do a step-by-step of a modern combat? I do not think that this has been done in an ALC before with flight units, and it would be educational (and entertaining! :)
I will do that, especially since it looks like I'll be doing some naval invasions. With the recent changes in the patch, that means relying on Carriers and Fighters for collateral damage rather than Artillery which can no longer attack from aboard ship. It looks like I'll be taking out Justinian while waiting for Marines to become available.
If you're going for a domination win, you really don't need to worry about the possibility of Hannibal building a spaceship because you'll already have built all the invasion troops necessary to capture his capital if/when he launches.
Does that work in Civ IV? I remember in previous versions of Civ you could stop a SS launch by capturing the capital, but I seem to recall readnig around here somewhere that it no longer works (especially since the capital just moves elsewhere if you capture it). Of course, I could be wrong, as I often am. I've never had to try it before.
Actually could we see a conquest win? We've only had one in these series.
Hmm, I think it may be a little late to try that. I prefer to devote myself to a conquest win from early on, and I spent a long time in this game being peaceful.

I'm curious as to why no one seems to be urging an attack on Darius after Justinian; everyone seems focused on Mehmed, Pacal, and Hannibal. But Darius is weaker (his power rating is near mine, but he lacks both Artillery and Infantry). He also has more land--in fact, he's #2 for both population and land, behind me. Wouldn't he make a better next target in pursuit of a domination win?

Or is the fact CivCorpse pointed out earlier, that all of Mehmed's cities are lined up in a nice, easy-to-conquer row, the deciding factor? Plus the fact that he owns a couple of cities on my continent?
 
Sisiutil said:
Does that work in Civ IV? I remember in previous versions of Civ you could stop a SS launch by capturing the capital, but I seem to recall readnig around here somewhere that it no longer works (especially since the capital just moves elsewhere if you capture it). Of course, I could be wrong, as I often am. I've never had to try it before.

In BtS capturing the enemy capital doesn't destroy the spaceship if it hasn't been launched yet. You need spies to damage it at that point. Capturing the capital will however destroy a spaceship which has been launched and is currently en route.
 
Sis, looks like momentum is building for a conquest win. However.......

I do think a space race win is an easier and earlier victory. I opened your save and began looking at your city hammer production and, thanks to Mining Inc. (and secondarily to Sid's), you are nicely positioned to build gold, allowing you to run your science slider at 100%.

I recommend spamming Sis'd and Mining executives until most or all cities have corps established. I understand CivCorps position that corps are not worth the cost (hope I'm stating it correctly), however the produciton and growth benefits of corps are huge as you can now leverage the build gold feature to make up for any negative financial issues that arise when corps are founded. Your empire has a boatload of cities and most of them should be building gold, not unimportant buildings or military. Once a city has both corps established, have that city begin to build gold. WIthin 15-20 turns all cities should be building gold, allowing you to run 100% science. You should be able to build most techs at 4 -6 turns each at 100% science, far outstripping the AI.

At this point the only cities building spaceship parts should be your top 4 production cities, which thanks again to Mining Inc., allows for monster production (bonus if you build laboratory).

From a military stand point the only one to watch should be Justinian. I would recommend repositioning all troops out of the Ragnar cities you captured (leaving a token garrison), and stationing them in you frontline cities with Justinian. One last note; when you research Industrialism (in the afore mentioned 4-6 turns) Take a small token pause from 100% reasearch and have a few cities pump out 10-15 tanks (then back to making gold and 100% science). This will keep your military "fresh" and up-to-date to discourage attack.

One last bit of advise concerning military. If all cities are making gold, and you turn research down to 0% for 1 turn, this should net you ~2,000 gpt. You could upgrade your frontline riflemen to infantry and cannon to artillery, to complement you fresh tank divisions. This military force shold be able to handle anything Justinian or any other AI sends your way. Then it is full bore to space!!

Thanks,
Eric
 
Does that work in Civ IV? I remember in previous versions of Civ you could stop a SS launch by capturing the capital, but I seem to recall readnig around here somewhere that it no longer works (especially since the capital just moves elsewhere if you capture it). Of course, I could be wrong, as I often am. I've never had to try it before.
In Vanilla, launching won you the game, but in BtS they changed it so you have to survive until it arrives at Alpha. If you capture the AI's capital between them launching and the ship reaching its destination, their SS is destroyed and they have to start again from scratch. Capture the capital before they launch and the capital is moved automatically with no damage done to the ship.

As others have now pointed out though, Hannibal's made one of those bizarre BtS tech-leader decisions of making a late culture run, so there's no danger of an SS attempt from him.
 
Yeah, I'm closing in on modern era for the first time, and I'm looking forward to seeing how differently warfare is conducted, still a little confused on air units.

Good luck with micromanaging all those units though :goodjob:
 
The State of the World, 1796 AD
...
However, I have Flight and Fascism on him, so I have a good, strong, very mobile defensive/offensive unit: Paratroopers.
...
I'd love to see those paratroopers getting used. I have never built them since i cant really see their use. I've also not seen anyone else use them in any write up on this forum.

Btw, thank's for these threads Sis, been following yours since quite a while :)
 
Maybe they suck for you because you don't use them correctly... just a thought.
 
paratroopers could be used as medics or hill/forest defenders for tanks...
 
what about paratroopers can compete with a tank?

Honestly, I don't have BtS. I own a mac, although I am hoping that it'll come out for it (but I seriously doubt it).
 
I'd love to see those paratroopers getting used. I have never built them since i cant really see their use. I've also not seen anyone else use them in any write up on this forum.
Paratroopers were the missing element from the land-based blitzkrieg that was finally added in by BtS.

For a modern-era land war, I primarily make use of three units: Bombers, Tanks, and Paratroopers. The Bomber remove a city's cultural defenses and cause collateral damage; the Tanks kill the defenders; and the Paratroopers drop in to secure the area.

This is significant because without an airport, you can only airdrop one unit per turn into a captured city. And that city may still be behind/within enemy cultural tiles, meaning that other slow-moving defensive units (such as Marines or Infantry) can't move into the city on the same turn that it's captured.

Later on, when you have Mechanized Infantry, Paratroopers become less important because you now have a good defensive unit that can keep up with your Tanks. But it takes quite a while to get to Robotics, and in between, I find Paratroopers to be extremely valuable.
 
Round 12: 1796 AD to 1844 AD (26 turns), Part 1

As the round got underway, I heeded your advice about the cost of the corporations and espionage. I lowered the espionage slider to 0% (I had several E-point-generating buildings now anyway), and I cancelled several deals for seafood.



This was a sensible adjustment, especially since taking over Ragnar's territory meant I had acquired several more sources of seafood on my own. I made some further adjustments to my trades a few turns later; furs and ivory are going to become obsolete before too long, so I did away with any and all deals involving them. This had the additional effect of making life a little bit harder for my rivals, so it's all good.

Hannibal built the UN, and proceeded to beat me in the S-G election:



So that could complicate my life, as if the Apostolic Palace isn't bad enough sometimes.

Next tech:



After that, I began researching Industrialism for Tanks, Battleships, and Marines.

My next Great Person was a Great Engineer out of Mecca:



I didn't really have much of a use for him; I'd been beaten to all the available late-game wonders at this point. So I set him aside, and found a use for him later, as you'll see.

The first UN vote was for a universal civic--Emancipation, which everyone was running anyway.



By this time I was feeling ready to take on Justinian. The first step was to make it harder for him to strike back at me through espionage:



And the next step was to start building some units that would stand up to his:



Meanwhile, I also implemented some of the other advice I was given, about spreading some of my corporations to other civs. As was suggested, Spain was an excellent target for Sid's Sushi:



Isabella has very little seafood, but this gave me some extra cash nonetheless.

I did my usual diplomacy check before declaring war:




Hmmm... Justinian has managed to make himself a pretty popular guy. So I'd be earning demerits from everybody for a DoW.

Well, ya wanna make an omelette, ya gotta break some eggs:



Now for some illustrations of modern warfare--how I conduct it, anyway, which I'm sure several of you will contend is not the best way. Well, that's what these threads are about. I don't write them for the praise, I write them because I want to improve my game and help other people improve theirs.

Anyway, here's how I conducted my initial naval invasion.

I approached Uppsala with a fleet of Destroyers and Transports. I had not yet managed to build any Marines and move them to the former Viking cities in the north, so I had to rely on Infantry (and a couple of Grenadiers looking for their last couple of XPs before a promotion).



First off, the Destroyers removed the city's cultural defenses.



With that done, I then used the Fighters on the Carrier to attack the city defenders. (I don't have Radio for Bombers yet--and if this had been an intercontinental invasion, I wouldn't have been able to use Bombers at any rate.)



The first attack really just removed the Byzantine Fighters.



Fortunately I had some additional fighters in the nearest former Viking cities, and they were able to do some damage to the city defenders. If this had been an intercontinental invasion, however, I would have been in trouble; but then again, I would have brought along more Carriers with more Fighters.

In the past, I would have launched Artillery and/or Cannon attacks from aboard ship, but as of the latest patch, those units can't attack amphibiously anymore. I suppose this was done for the purpose of balance. However, I'm not fond of the change for the simple reason that it makes a late-game war even harder to fight, and therefore more tedious, and Civ's late game warfare really didn't need to get any more boring. I would have preferred it if the AI had simply been improved to be aware of, and to counter, the "Syrian Doctrine". All you need is more air units to damage the attacking navy, more ships (the AI already makes tons of them) to sink them, and more defenders in coastal cities. But I suppose changing the rules is easier (and cheaper) than improving the AI. Fair enough. As I said, modern naval invasions now mean you have to bring along more Carriers and more Fighters.

With the defenders damaged, it was time for my Infantry units to attack.



Even without the Amphibious promotion, these units got pretty good odds--thanks to the Figher attacks. You'll see another battle in Part 2 where I didn't have enough Fighters to pull this trick, and it cost me.

This time, though, it was relatively easy. I didn't lose a single unit in this attack.



On the next turn, Justinian retaliated by launching Guided Missile attacks on some of my tile improvements.



Which was slightly annoying, but hardly bothersome. Note to self: I have to remember to send some Workers there to fix some of those tiles, which haven't been repaired since the attack.

I had a land-based stack attacking Amorium, but they were having a tough time of it. Justinian had moved several units into that city to defend it. And he had Radio for Bombers, unlike me.



He was also willing to indulge in active defense, one my my favourite tactics, and attacked out of the city. I lost a few units as a result. Nevertheless, he didn't attack my stack with the few Artillery he had in the city, preferring to reserve them for defense--a non-sensical tactic for the AI which Firaxis has never fixed, not since Vanilla Civ IV came out.

Because of the Bombers, I had decided to research Rocketry next rather than Radio so I would have SAM Infantry to counter them.



I've noticed that the presense of SAMs is enough to deter the AI from making air attacks at all. The rest of us, however, quickly learn to just attack with cheaper Fighters first and make the SAMs use up all their counter-attacks so the Bombers can attack without taking any damage.

While all this was going on, the UN votes kept rolling in. The next one was fairly innocuous--in fact, it's one of my own favourites, so I was pleased to see it: Single Currency/+1 trade route in all cities. It passed easily.



However, the UN resolutions were not going to stay trouble-free. But that's in part 2, which I'll post in a little while.
 
Little while, as in a few hours, or a few minutes?
 
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