ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[Jazzno]

Build and tech military and let Zara do you REXign for you? I would make exploring west a priority as well. You might be on/near a coastline and not have as much room as ya think.

 

[JujuLautre]

Aggresive leaders (by that, I mean warmongerers, not ones with the trait) are nicer to each other. Up to +2 I think.

Agressive AIs are nice to each other. But this does not work with the human.

 

[CivCorpse]

I checked the code and this is what i found regarding aggressive leaders attitude vs humans

Dilpo_check_AI_human_kill_kill_kill

 

[marstinson]

Again, I'd ask someone to critique my reasoning on this. I'm seeing Islam and Hindiusm showing up in the Event Log, but nothing about anyone changing civics to Slavery. Saladin took Islam (which probably means Meditation), followed 12 turns later by an unknown taking Hinduism (Polytheism, most likely). Zara is Creative/Organized with Theocracy as a favorite civic. He starts with Hunting and Mining, but his UU doesn't show up until Gunpowder. His UB (the Stele), however, only requires Mysticism, so he probably went straight for that and then lost the Monotheism or Polytheism race. Unless he popped a tech from a hut (and it certainly wasn't BW or we'd have seen the civic change), he'd still need to fill worker techs. The Settler/Archers were on a Farm, but no road, so he had Agriculture (but maybe not The Wheel) at least 13 turns ago. Unless there's ocean near his capital, Fishing > Sailing probably isn't high on his research list at the moment. So the question running through my head is whether his research queue is focused on Pottery/Animal Husbandry/Archery or Masonry/Bronze Working at the moment. If he's working on the Agriculture-related techs, then the Copper is safe for a little while because he won't know it's there. If he's working on the Mining offshoots, then the question becomes whether Sisiutil can crank out a Settler, spend 4 turns moving and settle on the 5th before Zara can finish BW, crank out a settler and spend 2-3 movement turns to get his Settler in place.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

Tech towards establishing that ancient-era military and go Hunting, AH, Mysticism, Archery. Even if you miss that copper, you may still get horses for a chariot rush. That probably won't be enough to finish Zara, but it may at least help secure the copper site if you lose it to his culture. Continue scouting around for more city sites. If there's no way to get copper, I would bee-line Iron Working and hope for the best. So, even though it looks uncertain, you still have some options.

 

[Tennyson]

His UU is a Bowman, and a bow rush can work if he can't get the copper. Better than waiting for Iron. The west needs to get fogbusted before taking that kind of decision though.

 

[slobberinbear]

Again, I'd ask someone to critique my reasoning on this. I'm seeing Islam and Hindiusm showing up in the Event Log, but nothing about anyone changing civics to Slavery. Saladin took Islam (which probably means Meditation), followed 12 turns later by an unknown taking Hinduism (Polytheism, most likely). Zara is Creative/Organized with Theocracy as a favorite civic. He starts with Hunting and Mining, but his UU doesn't show up until Gunpowder. His UB (the Stele), however, only requires Mysticism, so he probably went straight for that and then lost the Monotheism or Polytheism race. Unless he popped a tech from a hut (and it certainly wasn't BW or we'd have seen the civic change), he'd still need to fill worker techs. The Settler/Archers were on a Farm, but no road, so he had Agriculture (but maybe not The Wheel) at least 13 turns ago. Unless there's ocean near his capital, Fishing > Sailing probably isn't high on his research list at the moment. So the question running through my head is whether his research queue is focused on Pottery/Animal Husbandry/Archery or Masonry/Bronze Working at the moment. If he's working on the Agriculture-related techs, then the Copper is safe for a little while because he won't know it's there. If he's working on the Mining offshoots, then the question becomes whether Sisiutil can crank out a Settler, spend 4 turns moving and settle on the 5th before Zara can finish BW, crank out a settler and spend 2-3 movement turns to get his Settler in place.

This is a fair analysis about Zara trying for an early religion. Let's hope Sisiutil can make him pay for that diversion.

I'm not sure whether the AI prefers BW or AH. My guess is AH, since the AI is notorious for not chopping trees until every last improvement can be done without chopping. Also, because pigs, cows, and sheep are visible to the AI, if Zara has them near his land he will probably research that first.

Oh, and the AI already starts with Archery (and he starts with Hunting already, as you say) at Immortal. So AH is just around the corner for Zara, and he probably got it as one of his first techs (along with, say, The Wheel and Agriculture).

 

[r_rolo1]

AI in Immortal has as additional techs: archery, agriculture and hunting. AH will even come with discount

 

[Lord Parkin]

Uh, done. I got Fishing from a hut. Oh, you haven't read the update, have you?

Whoops, I didn't notice the extra pages before posting. Sorry, just ignore me.

 

[popejubal]

Uh, done. I got Fishing from a hut. Oh, you haven't read the update, have you?

I don't understand this. The plan was Mining -> Bronze -> Fishing. Still, you popped fishing with the warrior.

Wouldn't it have been more efficient to complete Mining first and then pop Bronze Working?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Wouldn't it have been more efficient to complete Mining first and then pop Bronze Working?

Didn't he just finish explaining that he's not any good at that sort of micro management?

 

[marstinson]

Thanks, slobberinbear. I typically play Warlord/Noble, so while it's nice to know what the higher-level players are thinking, it's probably better to understand why they are thinking it.

 

[oyzar]

I said to build workers / settlers at empty food bars so you get them out earlier than if you waste half a pop of growth first. You can either stop whatever other build you are doing(warrior?) or you can stagnate to finish that build faster... About MM this time around you definatly should have chopped the hills(so you could mine them) and you probably should have built a workboat when you got fishing so early...

 

[Lord Chambers]

Spoiler :

Of course, the Worker began farming the corn right away. I planned to assign my second citizen to one of the plains hills so that the work boat would appear faster.

I facepalmed when I read this. My rule is always to work the highest value tiles, so I might have worked a 3 hammer tile until the farm was complete, and then worked the farm. At pop 2 I would have put worked the 3 hammer tile and farm until the boat was complete, then worked the fishes and farm until pop 3.

I ran some test runs on the save and the results are as follows:
Working the 3 hammer until the farm: Turn 44 - Population 3, 17 hammers, and 15 food in storage
Working the corn before and after the farm: Turn 44 - Populatoin 3, 17 hammers, 16 food in storage.

You are a true master Sisutil.

 

[whakamole]

Can I get some input from the gallery on a workboat question? (Especially since we're discussing mm?)

When I am creating a workboat as a first or second build in a city, I usually assign a citizen to work the highest hammer tile possible - even at the cost of stagnation/slow growth - to get the boat out faster, figuring the seafood resource will bring in additional cash that I wouldn't get, otherwise, and I easily catch up to the same population growth as if the city governor was on.

It seems that Sisiutil, on turn 23, kept his first worker on the corn, so that his workboat will finish in 19 turns on turn 42, and will hit size three pop on the same turn as well.

On turn 23, if he had assigned his one citizen to a plains hill instead of the corn, he'd have his boat completed by turn 31. Swapping the one citizen to the (now) irrigated corn, then to the fish when hooked up, and at Pop 2 - his second citizen on the corn, he'd reach size three pop also on turn 41 or 42.

But he'd also have accrued an additional 10 or so from the fish tile and be that much closer to researching his next tech.

What do you all like to do when you're mm'ing a workboat build?

Edit: X-posted with LC - but again, there's also the additional commerce from the fish tile to consider when growing to pop 2, and then to pop3.

 

[Sisiutil]

Whakamole makes a good point here. I've been told over and over to prioritize high food tiles because food = hammers through whipping. So it requires a bit of thinking outside that particular box to prioritize hammers first, for a work boat in this case, in order to get more food and commerce on-line faster.

Will it make that much of a difference? We'll see. Certainly, the higher the difficulty level, the more sensitivity there seems to be to subtle micromanagement like this.

 

[Leper]

I think Sisiutil's copper city, if he gets there first, will come under heavy cultural pressure from Zara but also from Saladin who will likely snag the wheat and jumbos very soon. The AIs are very good at spreading religion so temples can be built early on. There is also a risk that Saladin completes Stonehenge. Since he founded a religion he wants a GP for the shrine. Then he will go for Writing and build madrassas which will further increase his culture. With Walls and protective archers that won't be easy to conquer. Especially since an early axewar with Zara will likely make you lag in research.

With the AI so close wouldn't it have been better to try to steal a worker from Zara and position a warrior on a good defensive spot near his capital to stop his early expansion? The AI is very cowardly with attacking out of his capital and will likely just build archers but not attack until he has like 5 of them. He will also build workers and settlers but won't dare move them outside of his capital.

I absolutely hate having creative civs close by on higher difficulties.

This will likely prove challenging despite the good starting position.

 

[PaulusIII]

As I recall, Aggressive leaders are programmed to be a little more agreeable with others with that trait, are they not? So it might be a little easier to get along with Ragnar than usual. That would be good if it's the case. Saladin and Zara are quite close by, so I expect problems and probably conflict with them. Ragnar is further away, so from a diplomatic perspective I think it makes sense to keep him friendly if possible. He's a formidable techer and can be a good trading partner, but as I recall you have to get him to Friendly before he'll trade techs.

You are incorrect here. Ragnar will trade techs at pleased, and is not very stingy with his techs (30% known limit) so it might be possible to trade with him at an earlier stage. His WFYABTA is low, though.

Unless you head to war with him or the Pyramids for Rep, getting good relations with Ragnar is not that difficult as soon as you get Hereditary Rule.

And as far as Zara goes: si vis pacem, para bellum. His Stele makes his cultural borders even more annoying than a normal Creative civ. Hope that he heads further on the religious track and founds his own religion - then you convert to Islam, attack him, and bring Saladin along with you.

 

[pigswill]

Regarding tech order S doesn't need hunting or AH for city#2 until its first border pop which means a monument +15 turns unless a religion spreads there beforehand (fairly unlikely) so mysticism first. Hunting before AH should speed up AH slightly unless S is in a hurry to locate horses.

Axe-rush does seem to be the order of the day - maybe for a bit of flavour add some bowmen to the stack for chariot protection/garrison duties. Even if Zara nabs the pigs S will still have access to copper and can practice whipping the food rich capital.

Edit: Is it worth whipping the settler?

 

[CivCorpse]

Regarding tech order S doesn't need hunting or AH for city#2 until its first border pop which means a monument +15 turns unless a religion spreads there beforehand (fairly unlikely) so mysticism first. Hunting before AH should speed up AH slightly unless S is in a hurry to locate horses.

Axe-rush does seem to be the order of the day - maybe for a bit of flavour add some bowmen to the stack for chariot protection/garrison duties. Even if Zara nabs the pigs S will still have access to copper and can practice whipping the food rich capital.

Edit: Is it worth whipping the settler?

Spears for anti-chariotness (new word), a couple bowman for each city he plans on keeping. The rest should be axes axes and more axes. With a couple of axes as support.