ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[csarmi]

Regarding EP, it really doesn't matter anymore, since it's too late to get the info needed in time to help decision. But if all that was focused on Zara, we'd have much more information right now. Those few hundred EP's won't matter in the long run, but in the short run, it could have helped.

Your point is valid, however - as soon as information is there (what is Zara doing), no reason to focus any points on him anymore.

As for granary, it all depends on how many units we need and how fast. I didn't make any calcs, but my guess is that the hammers invested into granary are paid back after 5-6 axemen. My estimation might be off, but not by a lot.

 

[oyzar]

For the details check out this thread.

Basically the amount of progress you make on your current tech is determined by summing the produced in all your cities and then multiplying the total by two bonus factors. One is based on number of pre-reqs known, and the other is based on the number of civs who you know who have already discovered the tech.

The pre-req bonus multiplier is 1.0 + .2 (for mandatory pre-reqs) + .2 * the number of optional pre-reqs you've researched. So for Writing which has three pre-reqs (AH, Pottery, Priesthood), the multiplier will be 1.2, 1.4 or 1.6 depending on how many you know.

Looking at the actual values in this case, at the current research rate (14 /turn), Pottery will take 9 turns and Writing 16 turns. If Pottery is researched first the extra 20% bonus will amount to about 3 /turn, which should cut 3 turns off the Writing research time.

So that means that about a third of the spent on Pottery will be recovered while researching Writing. But it also means that Writing will finish 6 turns later than if it was researched immediately.

Things are also rounded down and you get one free beaker so 14 beakers means 15 actual beakers multiplied by 1.2 this gives 18. 13 beakers would give 14*1.2=16... But yes pottery would give a 20% bonus on the beakers towards writing...

 

[CivCorpse]

Things are also rounded down and you get one free beaker so 14 beakers means 15 actual beakers multiplied by 1.2 this gives 18. 13 beakers would give 14*1.2=16... But yes pottery would give a 20% bonus on the beakers towards writing...

And by going pottery first, there is a greater chance of either ragnar or sal researching writing as well. Thus a further discount of the price of writing. Especially if both of them research it. Or even all 3 if you count zara, but he is a bit behind due to going religion first.

 

[Lord Chambers]

The most optimal time to switch to Slavery was the turn you built your Settler. Anarchy doesn't affect the movement of your units, so it could be on it's way to founding the Copper city while the production and commerce of Babylon is disrupted.

 

[Validator]

Agreed, but it's been two turns (he could have switched last turn and he'll only switch next one).

Not to , but it's only one turn. He couldn't have switched last turn since the ivory wasn't in his borders then. I only mentioned stopping the worker's road building order last turn so that it wouldn't automatically continue with road building this turn before he could get around to switching (which is what happened ).

I think he can avoid all unhappines if he just switches to worker RIGHT NOW, even without switching to slavery. I'm pretty sure that 7 turn loss will come back when there'll be two worker's chopping.

I think it's best to wait and build the worker after the whip so that it can help the stagnate growth while waiting for the whip unhappiness to go away. The problem Sisiutil faces at the moment is that the only improved tiles that Babylon has to work are high food tiles. So to stagnate growth without building a worker/settler he would need to switch some citizens from working high yield tiles to much lower yield tiles. Building the worker at that point lets the city avoid growing into unhappiness while still working its highest yield tiles.

The best way to avoid unhappiness at this point is to revolt to slavery, then switch to building a spear for one turn (with less than 7 ), then whip the spear for 2 pop, then finish the axe. Start the worker build right before the city will grow into unhappiness. By the time the worker's done the whip unhappiness should just about be over.

Incidentally, with a happy cap of 6 in the capital, it's no real crime to be stacking whip unhappiness; you can certainly afford 2 and still have decent output there.

This is a good point. I've done this on several occassions when axe rushing and it works well. The key is to wait until you're about ready to launch the attack and then follow up the normal whipping cycle whip with a second whip as soon as the overflow from the first whip is used up. This can allow 5 units to be produced over 6 turns, and if two cities are able to do it you've got an invasion force built in no time. Also getting all those units very quickly minimizes the time you're paying support for those units.

I don't think Sisiutil's cities are ready for a double whip this time, but in 15 turns... look out Zara.

Things are also rounded down and you get one free beaker so 14 beakers means 15 actual beakers multiplied by 1.2 this gives 18. 13 beakers would give 14*1.2=16... But yes pottery would give a 20% bonus on the beakers towards writing...

I wasn't really sure how rounding factoring in there. Giving it some thought this seems to be another situation for MM experts to exploit, since you can gain a bit by minimizing the loss due to rounding.

So 14 /turn (after the free is added) would be one of those worst cases where round down really reduces the actual multiplier value (16.8 rounds to 16, so you're only getting about a 14% boost). Although if I understand correctly the multiplier in this case would be 1.4 if Pottery is researched (since Sisiutil already knows AH), so the round down wouldn't be quite so bad (19.6 -> 19, so a 36% bonus).

Ugh... more MM.

 

[csarmi]

Not to , but it's only one turn. He couldn't have switched last turn since the ivory wasn't in his borders then. I only mentioned stopping the worker's road building order last turn so that it wouldn't automatically continue with road building this turn before he could get around to switching (which is what happened ).

I might be reading it incorrectly, but for me, Akkad has 16 culture now. So it's borders popped before (or technically right at the beginning of) last turn.
So it could have worked on the ivory last turn already.

I think it's best to wait and build the worker after the whip so that it can help the stagnate growth while waiting for the whip unhappiness to go away. The problem Sisiutil faces at the moment is that the only improved tiles that Babylon has to work are high food tiles. So to stagnate growth without building a worker/settler he would need to switch some citizens from working high yield tiles to much lower yield tiles. Building the worker at that point lets the city avoid growing into unhappiness while still working its highest yield tiles.

First of all, he needs the extra worker (actually, I think two workers AND a settler but that's beyond the point) now, not at some later point. If he builds it now, by the time it's finished, the ivory is hooked up.
Second, I don't really understand this 'switch to hammer tiles to avoid growth into unhappiness' concept. Even before the granary (which I think is mandatory and can be micromanaged to be built in 1 turn after pottery is researched) every 2 food he produces effectively means 3 hammers. So what if he grows to size 7 with a happy cap of 4 or 5 as long as he's working nice tiles? (corn is 9 hammers already w/o granary, show me smth with hammers that comes any close to this).

The best way to avoid unhappiness at this point is to revolt to slavery, then switch to building a spear for one turn (with less than 7 ), then whip the spear for 2 pop, then finish the axe. Start the worker build right before the city will grow into unhappiness. By the time the worker's done the whip unhappiness should just about be over.

Isn't it better to put the overflow into the worker?
Anyway, what I'd really do is: worker, axe finish (grow), settler, finish with chops and 2-whip, overflow into granary, military, military, military (between the military units a lighthouse might be placed once sailing is complete since it effectively costs only 45 hammers).

 

[NintendoTogepi]

 

[3rn0]

All this micromanagement gives me a headache. If I want MMing, I could concentrate to my work and not to this forum ;-)

 

[Validator]

I might be reading it incorrectly, but for me, Akkad has 16 culture now. So it's borders popped before (or technically right at the beginning of) last turn.
So it could have worked on the ivory last turn already.

It appears you're right about this. I was basing my info on the screenshot for AH completion from the start of the turn which showed the messages for Akkad's border expanding. However, on closer inspection, it appears that they're leftovers from the previous turn which were slow to clear. So Sisiutil did indeed waste 2 turns.

First of all, he needs the extra worker (actually, I think two workers AND a settler but that's beyond the point) now, not at some later point. If he builds it now, by the time it's finished, the ivory is hooked up.
Second, I don't really understand this 'switch to hammer tiles to avoid growth into unhappiness' concept. Even before the granary (which I think is mandatory and can be micromanaged to be built in 1 turn after pottery is researched) every 2 food he produces effectively means 3 hammers. So what if he grows to size 7 with a happy cap of 4 or 5 as long as he's working nice tiles? (corn is 9 hammers already w/o granary, show me smth with hammers that comes any close to this).

Isn't it better to put the overflow into the worker?
Anyway, what I'd really do is: worker, axe finish (grow), settler, finish with chops and 2-whip, overflow into granary, military, military, military (between the military units a lighthouse might be placed once sailing is complete since it effectively costs only 45 hammers).

I don't agree with your suggestions regarding whipping, as there seems to be some incorrect assumptions (based on my understanding of whip mechanics at least).

You seem to have the impression that an infinite amount of can be turned into via the whip. This isn't the case, unless you ignore the implications of stacking whip unhappiness. Whipping for 2 pop every 15 turns limits the amount of -> . Beyond that the only other way to convert -> is by building a worker or settler. The conversion rate isn't as favorable for worker/settler building as it is for whipping, but it's still better than working lower yield tiles.

I'm also not sure where you got the 2 -> 3 conversion ratio for whipping. The best case scenario (without a granary) is whipping a 2 pop city down to 1. That yields 45 , and the city will need 36 to regrow the whipped pop. So a 4 -> 5 ratio. And as the city gets larger the ratio becomes less favorable because the from each pop stays the same, but the number of to regrow goes up.

I also think you've underestimated the cost of having the city grow into unhappiness. At that point the unworking citizens are effectively lowering the yield of the high food tiles that your city is working. So 1 unworking citizen means the corn tile drops from a 6 tile to a 4 tile. Two unworking citizens and the corn's only worth 2 , the same as an unimproved grassland tile. The only reason you'd want this to happen is if you needed the extra pop to reach the pop limit needed to whip an expensive building (which isn't the case here).

I agree that it would be helpful to have another worker ASAP, but you have to look at what you'd be giving up to prioritize it. Because whipping is going to be so important with this high food capital, and the limiting factor for how much whipping you can do is the whip unhappiness I would think you'd want to whip ASAP so that the unhappiness can start cooling down so you can whip again sooner. Delaying the initial whip for several turns to build a worker doesn't seem optimal. The fact that the worker build can be used during the whip unhappiness period to stagnate growth while still working the highest yield tiles is another advantage of waiting.

I wouldn't put the whip overflow into the worker, or just whip the worker for that matter, because in this high food case the key is maximizing -> conversion. Since a worker build does that directly I would choose that option, so that all of the whip can go to units (which can't be built directly with ).

Granaries would pay off in the long run, but it takes a few whipping cycles for that to happen, and I think Sisiutil is going to need to launch his attack before that, so granary builds will only slow the rush down.

 

[csarmi]

Well, the 3:2 conversion rate was for the ideal (0 pop) case, it's getting worse and worse. Here we'll be looking at an approximate 45:40 ratio (45:20 with granary).

So what you're imlying is that whipping will do nothing more than converting 80 (40) food to 90 hammers every 15 turn no matter what we do (and when we got unhappiness problems, we should be building worker/settler). Also that we should start whipping as soon as possible.

It's also possible to whip more often (and it'll be sure worth it in the end of the buildup phase), but that means more unhappiness.

The capital will be on an average of +8 food in the ideal case (not much growing into unhappiness), which is 120 food per 15 turns. What a granary does is giving you 2/3 of a worker (in food) and that's not just some virtual one, it's actually doable. If you manage to 3-whip a settler, that's 60 extra food right away.

In the current setup, you can whip every 10 turns (which is actually okay unhappiness-wise as well). With a granary, you can do the same growth in 5 turns and use the remaining 5 turns to direct conversion - or slow down growth by turning your 402 (clam tile) to 004 and still whip every 5 turn while improving your production.

Are you sure it won't pay off? For me it seems those 90 hammers come back in 3 cycles (3*10=30 turns) if not 2.

To be clear: I know that it takes 15 turns for unhappiness to go away, didn't confuse that.

Anyhow, your plan means the order should be smth like this, right?

1) revolt right now, cancel worker orders
2a) start improving pig (if you wanna whip anyway),
2b) work pigs(?) (gives up 15 hammers but grows 6 turns faster (18 food instantly), that means faster growth to size 3 (hammers come back from working ivory)
2c) road on the way with capitol worker
3a) whip the spearman (2 pop)
3b) start on horse with capitol worker

Then you'd finish axemen, start worker (city can't grow anyway), then grow city to 6 and whip something.

I just got an interesting idea (goes well with maximizing production). What about starting a settler(!), improving ivory, when ivory done, grow enough so that a 3 pop whip will leave you at size 3 and 1 turn from growing (building smth else) then put overflow somewhere. Now THAT maximizes food to hammer conversion via whipping (only downside is that we might just not need a settler at ALL)...

 

[JTMacc99]

I'm okay with throwing all EP at Zara for now, provided that we think the research path will give us some opportunities to make use of them before the war is over. On the down side, it creates a situation where you need to manage the EP distribution more carefully the rest of the game (trying to make up for ignoring your other close neighbors.) However, at the very least, it will provide the opportunity to perform at least one counter-espionage as well as steal at least one Tech before the war is over. At best, it might even give the opportnity to flip the Holy city, although that will probably require more points than are normally available during an axe-rush.

 

[patagonia]

2c) road on the way with capitol worker
3a) whip the spearman (2 pop)
3b) start on horse with capitol worker

I think we're getting further into MM permutations than Sis will appreciate, but roading to the horse isn't worth it in my opinion. You waste 6 turns doing that and get the production boost from the tile much later.

Besides, there's no need for any chariots when you've got axes and spears, therefore it makes sense to build a pasture on the horses, but not to spend turns the worker could be chopping/mining on connecting them with a road. That can be done later when the axes/spears are off to war and you'll want the workers safely away from the front line where Zara can't snipe them with chariots.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think we're getting further into MM permutations than Sis will appreciate...

Quite true, but I'm sure some of the trainspotters around here appreciate it...

Besides, there's no need for any chariots when you've got axes and spears...

I'm not so sure about that. If Zara has followed his usual pattern, he's founded several cities; he expands like a maniac, in my experience. The first one or two may be easy knockdowns, but by the time I move on to the next few cities, he will probably have had time to build/whip several more units. And remember this is a tectonics map, with a lot more hills than usual, so many of the cities may have an additional defensive bonus.

Axemen are costly, Chariots are cheap; Chariots can get Flanking promotions, Axemen can't. I've used Chariots in this situation before when facing tough opposition pre-Construction, as Catapult substitutes. They often die, but some survive, and they enhance the survival chances of the Axemen.

So what I was thinking was to build up my force of city-busting Axemen first, and while they crack open the first few weakly-defended cities, focus on Chariots to help out with the tough ones.

 

[pigswill]

Why not use bowmen instead of chariots as suicide units? They're also cheaper than axes.

 

[r_rolo1]

Bowmen are slower than chariots and don't get flanking promos

Either way, I would think twice in marching to Zara's capital, since it has horses. Zara has not showed signs of having cooper ( right? ) and I'm sure that Sis prefer defending chariots to defending archers ( he even wrote that somewhere else )

 

[csarmi]

I think we're getting further into MM permutations than Sis will appreciate, but roading to the horse isn't worth it in my opinion. You waste 6 turns doing that and get the production boost from the tile much later.

Besides, there's no need for any chariots when you've got axes and spears, therefore it makes sense to build a pasture on the horses, but not to spend turns the worker could be chopping/mining on connecting them with a road. That can be done later when the axes/spears are off to war and you'll want the workers safely away from the front line where Zara can't snipe them with chariots.

You got me wrong there, I meant the routine move of "one move SW, road, cancel, next turn, one move NW on horse, pasture, finish..."

 

[Sisiutil]

Bowmen are slower than chariots and don't get flanking promos

Either way, I would think twice in marching to Zara's capital, since it has horses. Zara has not showed signs of having cooper ( right? ) and I'm sure that Sis prefer defending chariots to defending archers ( he even wrote that somewhere else )

It's hard to say whether Zara has copper or not--so much of that territory is unexplored. He apparently doesn't have Bronze Working because he hasn't changed to Slavery yet, but that may not be far off now that he's finished his early religion pursuit.

I'm tempted to get Writing next just to get Open Borders with Zara and thoroughly explore his territory (another task better handled by a Chariot) before invading. It will take about that many turns to build an army. If I research Pottery first and then Writing, that's too long of a delay, to my mind, for an Axe rush. Especially against a Creative leader with a holy city.

 

[slobberinbear]

You have copper and two nice early production cities. There is no need for discussion or delay. Build 9 axes and 1 spear and go pound Zara until he begs you not to stop.

 

[Sisiutil]

You have copper and two nice early production cities. There is no need for discussion or delay. Build 9 axes and 1 spear and go pound Zara until he begs you not to stop.

Unfortunately, the AI no longer begs for peace--I used to enjoy that--but I get your point.

 

[slobberinbear]

Unfortunately, the AI no longer begs for peace--I used to enjoy that--but I get your point.

Now go and do that axe-rush voodoo that you do. We want Babylonian axemen lounging up against every Stele in sight, sharpening their blades for the next conquest.