ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[slaze]

When you get the forges up, make sure you start to fix production at 4 intervals. For example, instead of two scientists and a preist in Babylon, you would run a scientist, a plains forest and an engineer. Green farms are easy to account @ 0 and if needed a plains farm becomes 22.

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm surprised many of you think there aren't a number of water tiles to work. Babylon has 5 food-heavy water tiles to work (three seafood plus 2 lake), Dur-Kur has those two lakes, and Nippur is coastal and has a lake as well (and will work one of Babylon's clam tiles while it grows). At 7 turns to go with the build, there's not a lot of opportunity cost there.

 

[CivCorpse]

And minoan has the two coastal fish. But in the long run, i think letting babylon finish all but a couple and then grabbing the gold might be better. Upgrading your CR# units to maces and funding the deficit research when you go to war. Or just build the bugger. In the end, it's your game. And if you like the idea of having the Colossuss, then i now support that 100%. This is not a democracy game, we offer advice not votes. And I for one, greatly appreciate the time and effort you put into each game for us. So 3 cheers for the big golden statue. Now start whipping in Minoan.
What might be helpful is knowing what your plans are. Do you want to attack Sal soon? Or are you content to wait until cannons and rifles. If you want to strike now, I think focusing on the lower part of the tech tree might be the best bet. After engineering research guilds->gunpowder->chem->steel. The war with Sal is going to be long and costly. He is protective and his CA's can be bothersome. You might consider several smaller attack stacks to jump over the borders and strike his 4 cities that are within 1-2 turns movement. Then joining them into one large stack for the main campaign. Most definately grab his ivory cities asap. That makes your jumbos the dominant unit in the open field.

 

[motivez]

Sorry I don't have anything helpful to add, but I just wanted to say Sisiutl, this was such an entertaining and educational read, thanks for doing these ALCs I just worked my way up to prince and this helps so much

 

[Validator]

But in the long run, i think letting babylon finish all but a couple and then grabbing the gold might be better. Upgrading your CR# units to maces and funding the deficit research when you go to war.

I don't really see an economic gain by intentionally losing out on the Colossus. It would yield at best 349 , which is only enough for a couple of axe->mace upgrades or several turns of deficit research at 100% (instead of breakeven 70%). Even with just the high food water tiles being worked that should mean almost 10 extra /turn until Astronomy. So actually building Colossus should easily be a better economic boost except for the very short term.

The decision IMO is whether it's better at this point to spend the on a wonder or on units. While it's relatively cheap the Colossus does cost almost the same as two maces.

6) Spam lonmgbows/crossbows out of that city you settled the GG in after the forge.

I hope you mean after building HE there.

 

[madscientist]

I hope you mean after building HE there.

If Sis adopts Islam and Theocracy then built the HE first. Otherwise crossbows and longbows immediately as I would not be trusting Sal. Bowmen are great early defenders but they are pretty obsolete now.

 

[Peachrocks]

Hmm... I agree with the Golden age idea but I don't think you can take the risk of displeasing Saladin even for a few turns, because he's much more likely to start a 'crusade' or more accurately a Jihad on you even if you come around to his way of thinking, once he sets the wheels of war in motion he won't stop even if he suddenly decides to like you, and should he decide that you are a suitable snack it might be game over.

I think you should go with Bureaucracy/Org religion/Islam, spread Islam as much as you can during the GE, speed up the buildings that you have, then near the end switch over to Theocracy and maybe Vassalage and research enginnering followed by Guilds.

I suggest a rather unusual path this game if only to put it out there. I believe if you use Knights/Pikes/Longbows/Trebuchets, you can go to war before gunpowder because Knights don't do horribly vs Protective Longbows due to getting around extra first strike bonus + flanking and the extra promotions with stables are handy. Trebuchets can be strong on Longbows too, rip city elephants apart and Pikes protect your Knights from Elephant counter attack. He is slightly behind you technologically, so you should have an advantage.

Of course to be honest, this isn't exactly the best path trade wise, as the AI rather likes teching guilds, so perhaps you could let another AI kindly discover it for you first, but you might have to wait a long time until you trade it. This is just a suggested course of action if you wish to go to war sooner.

Edit: I know its obvious, but I never really noticed until the last post how much detail and thought you put into each of your posts Sisiutil. It's really entertaining reading

 

[civ4legs]

Sisiutil, I just realized something that I disliked about your proposal for a Golden Age civic change to military civics and back: we'll be whipping units *during* the Golden Age. Meaning we'll lose worked tiles and so GA bonuses.

I agree on this point: I don't think mixing whipping and GA is a good idea.

I would also like to say that I beeline to grenadiers a LOT. I pretty much always have grenadiers before getting rifling, often for a LONG time. Grenadiers get a very long lifespan since even when the AI gets to rifles they still get shredded by grenadiers, especially since you can get cannons so quickly to go along with them...

The other benefit with beelining grenadiers is that you retain the ability to build macemen, which can then be upgraded relatively cheaply to grenadiers after taking the CR1 and CR2 upgrades, which gives you a steady stream of AI city destroyers.

It's not until the AI gets cavalry that a CG trained grenadier starts being a liability on defense, but since I beeline railroad right after I beeline grens, I hopefully have machine guns coming online soon, and upgrading CG2 grens to MGs is great.

 

[carl corey]

civ4legs, interesting, I'll have to try to get Grenadiers early in a game. There was a debate a while ago on Rifles vs Grens+Cannons, I almost forgot about it.

Only one thing to add: getting Rifles also allows you to still build Macemen.They get obsolete either when you have both Rifles & Grens, or when you have Infantry.

 

[r_rolo1]

The cannon-gren plan has only a ( potential big ) issue: the fact that Sal has a resourceless knight as UU , and the known taste that BtS AI has for mounted units, especially if they have a mounted UU. Knights alone may be a problem in that kind of offensive ( nothing that some pikes/formation phants can't handle ) but if Sal hits MT+ Gunpowder before S man gets to offensive and mass upgrades his Camels to Cuiraseers ( a very likely scenario ), things can get rough........

 

[Artichoker]

The cannon-gren plan has only a ( potential big ) issue: the fact that Sal has a resourceless knight as UU , and the known taste that BtS AI has for mounted units, especially if they have a mounted UU. Knights alone may be a problem in that kind of offensive ( nothing that some pikes/formation phants can't handle ) but if Sal hits MT+ Gunpowder before S man gets to offensive and mass upgrades his Camels to Cuiraseers ( a very likely scenario ), things can get rough........

Cuirassiers require Horse, don't they? So even if the UU is resourceless, the upgrade cannot be completed unless Saladin has Horse. In order to prevent that, we can pillage the Horse before it happens.

 

[r_rolo1]

Saladin has exactly 1 source of horses, 1 S of Mecca. The only way of doing a pillage in that deep is via spy

About trade routes ( yes , S man mentioned that he didn't understood it well and I haven't saw any one explain it so far ): you can have trade routes with a city if you can take one of your land units to that city ( in a boat if needed ) without passing by enemy territory. If that barb city was removed ( the only "enemy territory" I see between you and Darius ) you could have trade routes with Darius, in spite of Sal and Ragnar not having OB with him, as long as you have OB with them both

 

[Validator]

If Sis adopts Islam and Theocracy then built the HE first. Otherwise crossbows and longbows immediately as I would not be trusting Sal. Bowmen are great early defenders but they are pretty obsolete now.

Building units without HE seems to me to be a big waste of s.

HE costs 300 s. With a forge and marble (+125%) that works out to about 134 base s.

LB costs 75 s. With a forge that's 60 base s. With a forge plus HE that's 34 base s, so HE saves 26 base s.
X-box costs 90 s. With a forge that's 72 base s. With a forge plus HE that's 40 base s, so HE saves 32 base s.

So HE repays the s spent in building it once 4 or 5 units are built. That will only take about 10 turns after HE is finished, which should take about 10 turns after the forge is finished.

If there is a threat that Saladin will attack that quickly then all cities should be building military now instead of forges.

Hopefully Sisiutil has been using OB to check out Saladin's cities to look for a SOD that could be a potential threat.

 

[Validator]

Saladin has exactly 1 source of horses, 1 S of Mecca.

Actually Saladin has acquired a second source of horse in the SE. Also his buddy Ragnar has a spare horse that might be available for trade. So pillaging to deny upgrade opportunities seems like a long shot.

Only one thing to add: getting Rifles also allows you to still build Macemen.They get obsolete either when you have both Rifles & Grens, or when you have Infantry.

Rifles + MGs also obsoletes Maces.

 

[r_rolo1]

If there is a threat that Saladin will attack that quickly then all cities should be building military now instead of forges.

Saladin is not planning wars, so it should be safe to build infra for now . In fact, no one is planning wars in the moment and , as S man is not the worst enemy of any of the known civs , it is a very good time to bet on infra. The only problem is that he's in the 50-70% of the AI power........

 

[madscientist]

Building units without HE seems to me to be a big waste of s.

HE costs 300 s. With a forge and marble (+125%) that works out to about 134 base s.

LB costs 75 s. With a forge that's 60 base s. With a forge plus HE that's 34 base s, so HE saves 26 base s.
X-box costs 90 s. With a forge that's 72 base s. With a forge plus HE that's 40 base s, so HE saves 32 base s.

So HE repays the s spent in building it once 4 or 5 units are built. That will only take about 10 turns after HE is finished, which should take about 10 turns after the forge is finished.

If there is a threat that Saladin will attack that quickly then all cities should be building military now instead of forges.

Hopefully Sisiutil has been using OB to check out Saladin's cities to look for a SOD that could be a potential threat.

I agree generally, but my point is to get those few defending longbows at CG II fast. A few lost hammers doesn't really matter if it is enough to prevent Sal from attacking.

Again, my point of view is someone coming in part-way and my first impression is :
1) Sal is your neighbor, you do not have his or any religion as the state (no favorite civic).
2) Sal's other neighbor is a religious buddy.
3) You best defenders right now are Bowmen.
Something has to give. Best to adopt Islam and theocracy or start building longbows real fast.

 

[Sisiutil]

I have been checking nearby Arabian cities, I haven't seen a stack, and Saladin is not in WHEOOHRN mode last time I checked.

I like the idea of a medieval-era war against Saladin. Walls and Castles can make it a tough slog sometimes, but that just requires more Accuracy Catapults (I find around 8 of them will remove all defenses unless my opponent has Chichen Itza). The medieval era gives me an opportunity to accumulate two of my favourite promoted units: Macemen with City Raider III, and Pikemen with Combat II/Formation. I usually upgrade the former to Grenadiers, the latter to Rifles.

This time, capturing Mecca and its shrine means the war will pretty much pay for itself. Mecca can become the Wall Street/Corporation city.

I rather like the idea of switching to Vassalage and Free Religion and saving the GS for either Education or an Academy (I'm inclined toward the former). If I'm going to go to war with Saladin, what's the point in cozying up to him via a shared religion?

 

[madscientist]

I If I'm going to go to war with Saladin, what's the point in cozying up to him via a shared religion?

1) To bribe into attacking Ragnar first and forceing him into a 2 front war..
2) To keep Justinian from joining a war against you, thus avoiding a 2 front war against you.

But vassalage and FR seams like a good choice if your going to war early against Sal. My impression is you were leading towards attacking in the gunpowder era.

 

[r_rolo1]

One thing ( dunno if someone mentioned it so far ) : there are 2 known AI with theo and the ability of making the AP: justinian and Hannibal. If Hannibal does it ( the most likely ), you'll have a jewish AP, that can be troublesome in some ways , but it is nothing compared with being in AP that you don't control ( hint: last ALC )....

Now if Justinian does it ( less likely, since he's in war... ) things can get rough if he's still a islam dude. You have a xtian missionary there so you should take it to Justinian's capital ( that AFAIK is still religionless ) and spread it there. With 3 or 4 more missionaries you can even make him to flip to Xtianity ( his favourite religion anyway .... not that it matters much here ). Even if it does not make it in time for the AP , if Justinian is Xtian Sal will probably pair with Ragnar to destroy him.... And then a ol' on Sal would be in order

 

[carl corey]

Rifles + MGs also obsoletes Maces.

Good point, didn't think about that one.