ALC Game #24 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Babylon/Hammurabi

[CivCorpse]

I did a little test in ye ole world builder. I placed a CG1 Bowman in a city with 20% cultural defense. Pretty much what you can have in any city. The Bowman was then allowed to fortify for 5 turns. Then I checked the odds for attacking. I did this with three decently promoted Swordsmen. Then I checked the the odds vs a regular archer. Then I checked all of them with walls added.

CR2 Swordsman vs CG1Bowman: 6 vs 6.30 28.8%
CG1 Archer :6 vs 4.8 70%
With walls CG1 Bowman 6 vs 7.2 21.9%
CG1 Archer 6 vs 5.7 59.5%

C1 CR2 Swordsman vs CG1Bowman: 6.6 vs 6.3 59.2%
vs CG1 Archer 6.6 vs 4.8 75.1%
With Walls vs CG1 Bowman 6.6 vs 7.2 26.8
vs CG1 Archer 6.6 vs 5.7 65.4%

C1 CR3 Swordsman vs CG1 Bowman 6.6 vs 5.4 68.8%
vs CG1 Archer 6.6 vs 3.9 95.1%
With Walls vs CG1 Bowman 6.6 vs 6.3 59.2%
vsCG1 Archer 6.6 vs 4.8 75.1%

Against mounted units they are the same as archers, but vs melee you should be pretty safe even without walls. I included the Combat1 promotion in case of an Aggressive leader. Shock axes definately stronger than both Bowman and Archers but cost 52 vs 37 So you can build 3 Bowman for every 2 axes. Availabilty of copper should decide your choice. As well as overall production. If copper is unavailable within the capital or 2nd city then Bowman are perfectly fine until Cats appear on the scene. Though getting metal is always a good idea.
Especially when you consider I gave the attacking Swordsmen a large advantage when considering promotions. Early on it will be rare to face CG1 CR3 swords. Most likely you will be facing CR1 or CR1C1 swords and axes.

 

[tycoonist]

nice analysis civcorpse, but hopefully this will have no relevance on the game. if babylon has to use the bowman, something has gone wrong elsewhere.

 

[Daedal]

Maybe somebody could roll up a map with no copper, horses, or iron nearby with Shaka and Monty as S's closest neighbors.

 

[CivCorpse]

nice analysis civcorpse, but hopefully this will have no relevance on the game. if babylon has to use the bowman, something has gone wrong elsewhere.

That something could be a lack of copper. Or loony Monty as a neighbor again. And just like protective. It means building fewer archers and more offensive troops. Assume 4 cities built peacefully. 2 axemen each for defense is 416 2 Bowman each is 296 that is a 120 difference. Exactly 2 more swordsmen. How many times have you killed all but one defender just to watch them whip another archer between turns?
But then again I am a big fan of walls in border cities. They're cheap and don't cost anything to maintain. Walls and 2bowman 1spearman are a solid defense.

 

[BakingTheArt]

Map - Hemispheres OR Pangea (Natural Coastline)
Settings - Choose Religions, Raging Barbarians OR Aggressive AI
Difficulty - Immortal

Basically, there should be a big possibility of dealing with either Barbs or an early war. That's the bowmen's strength, so you should attempt to demonstrate it. Immortal, because Hammy's UU prevents too many losses in wars, and it's funner to watch the AI kick your ass (I'm allowed to say that, right? Right?).

 

[uncarved block]

I'd vote against Pangaea, simply because the AI rarely adjusts and still builds the two sea based wonders-- not a crippling diversion, but still a leg up for the human player. Hemispheres with two massive continents is fairly fun. (Perhaps add an AI to get four per? Or see if the other continent has three friendly AIs to drive the tech rate? I dunno.)

Just throwing my two cents into the hat.

 

[tycoonist]

fractal/immortal

 

[kazapp]

fractal/immortal

If somebody sanity checks the map, yes.

Meaning to see Sis isn't isolated, doesn't get three Pigs and three Gems in the BFC, and makes sure he is the only land neighbor of the Aztecs...

 

[Munch]

I don't think we should have any game-altering settings like raging barbs. Sure it may play to Hammy's strengths but if that's true then we've seen that it can have a strong impact on a game, as we saw with, say, Ragnar.

Choose religions is a different story, as it's just a visual change. And by no means select "no tech brokering", as tech brokering was the main reason the rocketting to top of the score chart happened in the Lincoln game. Random personalities, however, is a minimal gameplay change, dunno how people feel about that.

In summary: Fractal / Immortal / Choose religions / No time victory?

 

[tycoonist]

nobody ever gets time victory on immortal level.

 

[Bleys]

Why lose the free XP from barbs, especially when the UU is great for holding them off?

I disagree with this as a reason not to build the GW. With the GW in place, you can easily send the troops you wish to get promotions to the borders of your culture, and then pick and choose which Barbs to attack/defend by stepping out of culture. I have used this trick many times, it works very well, in fact, it makes it easier to get that XP on the specific units you wish to get promotions.

 

[tycoonist]

GW isn't worth it, especially on immortal unless you are isolated. otherwise the AI expands to quickly for you to waste time building a wonder. rushing/rexing is a much better use of the hammers.

 

[marstinson]

That more or less comports with my experience. Generally much easier to take the Wall away from the building civ (assuming that it's close by) than to race the AI to completion yourself. But I'm also with Bleys in that the Wall lets you pick your battles rather than having the Barbs force them on you.

 

[Jazzno]

GW is worth it if stone ends up nearby. Then you almost have to build it. Also worth it if you want an espionage edge. But if the plan is constant rapid growth, then courthouses will be being built, and you wouldn't be too far behind in espionage. I say GW only if stone is in the capital's BFC.

 

[CivCorpse]

Why lose the free XP from barbs, especially when the UU is great for holding them off?

The UU gets no bonuses vs barb archers and on open terrain is weaker than barb axes.

 

[CivCorpse]

Choose religions is a different story, as it's just a visual change. And by no means select "no tech brokering", as tech brokering was the main reason the rocketting to top of the score chart happened in the Lincoln game. Random personalities, however, is a minimal gameplay change, dunno how people feel about that.

In summary: Fractal / Immortal / Choose religions / No time victory?

Choose religions is more than just flavor. The default setting allows you to know what techs have been researched to found a religion.
Random personalities is not all that minimal. Knowing your opponent has a major diplomatic impact. When Monty is your neighbor you change your game plan to focus on wiping him out. With random personalities you can't assess which neighbor is the biggest threat of a DOW.

 

[brianb1974]

LOL at the random collosseum event.

Went are you going to start a national gardening league?

 

[NcNikke]

The UU gets no bonuses vs barb archers and on open terrain is weaker than barb axes.

Isn't the +50% vs. melee taken from the melee units strenght, rather than being added to Bowman's strenght. So when against a Barb Axe
3.00 vs 5.00:50% = 3.00 vs 2.50. It's still not an auto win but a good chance, especially if the Bowman is promoted. And not sure about this one but don't Archers/Bowmen get +10% vs babrbs?

 

[CivCorpse]

Isn't the +50% vs. melee taken from the melee units strenght, rather than being added to Bowman's strenght. So when against a Barb Axe
3.00 vs 5.00:50% = 3.00 vs 2.50. It's still not an auto win but a good chance, especially if the Bowman is promoted. And not sure about this one but don't Archers/Bowmen get +10% vs babrbs?

It's strange how Civ calculates that. When attacking the computer adds the 50% to the bowman and then figures out the ratio of the strengths of both units. then it applies that ratio to the bowman at it's base strength.

An unpromoted bowman attacking an unpromoted axeman is calculated as strength 3 vs. 3.33 or a 37.3% chance of winning.

 

[NcNikke]

It's strange how Civ calculates that. When attacking the computer adds the 50% to the bowman and then figures out the ratio of the strengths of both units. then it applies that ratio to the bowman at it's base strength.

An unpromoted bowman attacking an unpromoted axeman is calculated as strength 3 vs. 3.33 or a 37.3% chance of winning.

That's just plain wierd.
Well, I'm not gonna argue with you. You've played CIV a lot more than I have.