ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica

[Bandobras Took]

You are confusing bad early play for good late play. And this game series isn't about maximizing score.

And anyway, what makes you believe that score wouldn't have been even higher if he had taken on Saladin earlier?

If he wasn't ready to take on Saladin earlier, the score would most certainly have been lower should he have tried.

I'm not confusing bad early play with good late play; I'm considering overall play as opposed to those who think that all wars must be fought before gunpowder.

 

[CivCorpse]

"Rushing" is not the only way to win a war. I am not advocating waiting for cats. I think that would be a mistake. But axe rushing is more of an exploit than good strategy. Just as "choking" and the protective wall whip for gold.

 

[LiberiGlacialis]

How is Axe Rushing an exploit? A gamble, yes, but an exploit? Nah. You have to tech BW, hook up Copper, and then get the Axes out and warring as fast as you can. Too slow? You got a bunch of axes without anything to do but look tough. Protective/Creative neighbor? You need more Axes, slowing it down. Neighbor too far away? You got fogbusters, not much else. Isolated? See far away. Out-teched? Why are you trying to Axe Rush in the first place?

I call it a gambit, though it's a better one then most.

 

[CivCorpse]

How is Axe Rushing an exploit? A gamble, yes, but an exploit? Nah. You have to tech BW, hook up Copper, and then get the Axes out and warring as fast as you can. Too slow? You got a bunch of axes without anything to do but look tough. Protective/Creative neighbor? You need more Axes, slowing it down. Neighbor too far away? You got fogbusters, not much else. Isolated? See far away. Out-teched? Why are you trying to Axe Rush in the first place?

I call it a gambit, though it's a better one then most.

But it heavily relys on the Ai's not being coded to prepare for a war that early. That makes it an exploit.

 

[Gliese 581]

I hear axe rushing is hard on deity.

 

[v8_mark]

Well, having just failed an Egyptian war chariot rush on prince (! - 7 war chariots vs 3 archers in 1900BC!) I'd like to see one here

 

[Tennyson]

But it heavily relys on the Ai's not being coded to prepare for a war that early. That makes it an exploit.

I believe this is because if they were, the player would always get a crucial tech lead on the AI.

Better to risk 50/50 losing a war than for the AI to doom itself in every game.

Also, this is only Sis's, what, third play on Immortal. He can afford to be more sportsmanlike in later games when he's an expert on Immortal play.

He's got a terrible opening position, but he has copper and the best lands are in enemy hands.

 

[CivCorpse]

I believe this is because if they were, the player would always get a crucial tech lead on the AI.

Better to risk 50/50 losing a war than for the AI to doom itself in every game.

Also, this is only Sis's, what, third play on Immortal. He can afford to be more sportsmanlike in later games when he's an expert on Immortal play.

He's got a terrible opening position, but he has copper and the best lands are in enemy hands.

The fact that it is his 3rd game on immortal (online atleast) is more of a reason to avoid a risky gambit like axe-rushing a protective leader. If it were to fail then he would probably be in an even worse position. It would appear that an early rush with axes is past consideration. Getting a thrid city settled to block Mansa's expansion East is the play. This third city can also contribute troops. I think build/whipping a settler in bth current cities can seal off Mansa and Saladin from further expansion. Then 4 cities producing GWs with a couple supporting axes and spears will quickly build an army that can roll over Saladin. Sis is going to have superior troops as well as higher production. With the Eastern penninsula developed as well as Saladins former lands Sis will be able to field an army mansa won't be able to stop.

 

[Gliese 581]

He has to kill Saladin and rather sooner than later, the land he's got to work with is so bad that there is little other choice.

 

[CivCorpse]

He has to kill Saladin and rather sooner than later, the land he's got to work with is so bad that there is little other choice.

Depending on how much land sal has to the north, as someone pointed out earlier taking Medina and keeping a few troops on the pilliaged iron should be enough to stop Sal from mounting a counter attack until a suffiecient force of GW's can be built/whipped to take mecca and any other cities. The land on the eastern peninsula isn't all that horrible. Decent food and nice production. Just dandy for building a mob o troops to take down Mansa.

 

[Joshua368]

Maybe we should just call the whole thing off. Going to war is an exploit of the game's engine; the AI sucks at it, why should we get an unfair advantage?

 

[oldsaxon]

The (semantic) point is that the AI is designed to fight a war - it's just not very good at it. On the other hand, it's not designed to defend against an early rush (or so it's claimed).

 

[Tennyson]

The fact that it is his 3rd game on immortal (online atleast) is more of a reason to avoid a risky gambit like axe-rushing a protective leader. If it were to fail then he would probably be in an even worse position.

That, I think, is a better argument. I also don't mind the circular saw approach (take one from Sally, one from Mansa, etc) although I find that worked better in CivIII than CivIV.

I do think Sis should at least go to a limited war soon, as a land grab as well as a check on his neighbor's expansion.

 

[DMOC]

What's with all these exploit things? If an exploit helps me win, I probably would use it.

 

[Joshua368]

The (semantic) point is that the AI is designed to fight a war - it's just not very good at it. On the other hand, it's not designed to defend against an early rush (or so it's claimed).

I've found a lot of AIs not very well designed to defend against later wars as well.

Besides, deity AIs can axe rush so it's not like something they never intended.

 

[vicawoo]

So let's see, you're boudica, who's the best axe rusher in the game (except for maybe gilgamesh), you start with copper 3 tiles away in the direction of your nearest opponent, his closest city is what, 7 tiles away from your capital, you have a forest laden start, you have deer and other food sources, and he probably doesn't even have copper early, he builds two early wonders.

So the optimal decision is to go catapults? Or get great lighthouse/great library/tech to liberalism?

This makes me wonder how people ever accomplish an axe rush.

 

[r_rolo1]

Civ IV AI is programmed to lose in style ( at best ). Not my words.... Soren ones

Seeing this in this prism, playing Civ IV is a exploit, because the AI was not programmed to win

 

[Dhaulagiri]

Ironworking has been researched as of the end of last round, so no need to debate an axe rush, its GW rush now!

He's halfway done with granaries at both cities which are pop 2 and 4. So I'm thinking let him finish building those to let them grow back a bit, then have one city crank out GW's, the capital can whip a settler then join in GW spamming. Send the axemen out right away to scout the status of Saladin and strategic resource hook-up. If any are hooked up or about to be, declare war and pillage them. If not keep building GW's till you have around 8 and attack and keep building GW's until you want peace or he's dead.

 

[marstinson]

If I'm following the line of thought correctly, it seems the decision that Sal must die has already been taken. The next question is, "when must Sal die?", and I think almost everyone's experience shows that sooner is much better than later. If it is to be sooner, then you do it with the tools you have available. Axes and GWs are what's available, so the argument over exloits vs. gambits seems irrelevant. If it needs to be done, then do it. I suppose that if being a good sport is important, Sis could DoW and then do nothing for a few turns so Sal can produce a few defenders. But I have always been under the impression that the object of war was victory rather than being a good sport.

That being said and at the risk of showing my age, I think I shall go find my copy of "Fight Fiercely Harvard".

 

[hal08]

AIs are much better prepared for early rushes than the human player.