ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica

[slaze]

Play it out the way you should, as Oyzar pretty much aligned. Don't settle on the bronze, beeline IW (after wheel, ag, round 1 techs), take Medina.

What is this granary madness???

 

[LiberiGlacialis]

slaze, you're a little behind. He has settled on the Copper, and I think just finished IW. Now the debate is how or when to strike Sal.

 

[Joshua368]

So let's see, you're boudica, who's the best axe rusher in the game (except for maybe gilgamesh), you start with copper 3 tiles away in the direction of your nearest opponent, his closest city is what, 7 tiles away from your capital, you have a forest laden start, you have deer and other food sources, and he probably doesn't even have copper early, he builds two early wonders.

So the optimal decision is to go catapults? Or get great lighthouse/great library/tech to liberalism?

This makes me wonder how people ever accomplish an axe rush.

We all know that an early axe rush would be the best strategy here, but not everyone is sure it's still reasonable to pull it off. He waited until iron working and still has yet to whip up his army, keeping in mind that Saladin is protective and has high culture due to wonders.

 

[azzaman333]

We all know that an early axe rush would be the best strategy here, but not everyone is sure it's still reasonable to pull it off. He waited until iron working and still has yet to whip up his army, keeping in mind that Saladin is protective and has high culture due to wonders.

Medina has to be taken as soon as possible, in my view. It is full of flood plains, perfect for science city. It could be the difference between keeping up with Mansa or not.

 

[Sleepless]

Why is everyone so negative about Cats? At the moment Sis is no position for an early declaration on Sal. Apart from pillage money he wouldn't have any sort of economy. Probably wouldn't be able to afford to keep many of Sal's cities due to upkeep so Mansa will settle there.

My suggested Tech Path would be writing, sailing, masonry, maths, and construction. Avoid chopping too much until maths comes in.

Settle 1 more city on the river somewhere near the deer to the NE. Build some riverside cottages/run scientists. Start building an army of GWs/Axe and Spear (if you see chariots). As soon as construction is in you can have 4 or 5 cats in a couple of turns by using the chop/whip then declare.

Upside will definitely mean a lot less losses in the war. Sal's cities will be more developed so possibly better infrastructure when they eventually fall. Downside will take a little bit longer. Just bear in mind that Sis has to tech something anyway so what is wrong in going for construction? After the war he will have some money to research currency before his economy hits the ropes. Then on to CoL. Then with his highly experienced troops (before they go obsolete) who survived the last war he can look to cut down Mansa a bit. More upsides if Sal gets a GP he will likely bulb theology so will probably get a holy city. If it is a GSpy you'll more than likely get a free Scotland Yard. Unless he decides on a GAge instead.

If Sis decided to attack now Medina will fall easily but will Mecca? If Sal has metal and whips an axe or 2 or more CG archers Mecca will be tough to take and that has to be the main aim of this war.

Still looking foward to the next round.

 

[Validator]

Why is everyone so negative about Cats? At the moment Sis is no position for an early declaration on Sal. Apart from pillage money he wouldn't have any sort of economy. Probably wouldn't be able to afford to keep many of Sal's cities due to upkeep so Mansa will settle there.

Saladin has only 2 cities right now, so Sisiutil can definitely afford to keep them. If any more Arabian cities are founded in the interim they can be razed.

As soon as construction is in you can have 4 or 5 cats in a couple of turns by using the chop/whip then declare.

Upside will definitely mean a lot less losses in the war.

Less losses if Saladin doesn't get LBs in the meantime. Cats are at least 4 techs away for Sisiutil (writing, masonry, math, construction). That's a lot of time for an Immortal AI with gold to acquire several techs.

 

[azzaman333]

Taking Mecca may not be feasible, but Medina is a very strong commerce city anyway.

 

[Sleepless]

A couple of axes in a walled city will stop the rush just as well.

Good job the AI is hopeless otherwise we would have no chance of winning at this level anyway. Admittedly if I was planning this tech path I certainly would have gone writing/sailing before IW so perhaps the rush now is better (still not convinced might have to try myself and see) but it needs to be done very quickly. What is the plan after the war 1 Gold/1 Silver mine + whatever else Sal has is not going to keep Sis up with Mansa.

PS if one of the techs Sal gets is Alpha, might even make a few techs out of a peace deal. No way I can see Sal have LBs around 500BC. Haven't worked out how long it will take Sis to get to construction either though.

 

[CivCorpse]

A couple of axes in a walled city will stop the rush just as well.

Good job the AI is hopeless otherwise we would have no chance of winning at this level anyway. Admittedly if I was planning this tech path I certainly would have gone writing/sailing before IW so perhaps the rush now is better (still not convinced might have to try myself and see) but it needs to be done very quickly. What is the plan after the war 1 Gold/1 Silver mine + whatever else Sal has is not going to keep Sis up with Mansa.

PS if one of the techs Sal gets is Alpha, might even make a few techs out of a peace deal. No way I can see Sal have LBs around 500BC. Haven't worked out how long it will take Sis to get to construction either though.

Waiting for construction would be foolish. Sal will probably get it as well as HBR for jumbos. Taking Medina and Mecca seals off the east for Rexing. CoL to run a spy in Mecca with the great wall has a good chance of popping a spy...infiltrating Mansa and robbing him blind of techs. Then when the EPs run out. Robbing him blind @ swordpoint.

 

[Warmongerguy]

Time is the key.
Go explore Sal's land with an axe. While doing that start rushing your army with axes and GWs. Sal can't be too strong because he built 2 wonders. Don't waste time by building settlers and other minor objectives while your economy is weakened by your bad land.

Then find the appropriate timing. When you have an army strong enough to take his capital go for it at once. Any good city you take from Sal improves your position and weakens him. If his capital is on a hill you'll need more GWs and maybe you should rush a dun then. You can get the needed 3rd Montain promotion by having them "training on Medina".

I am listed as chieftain because I am new to this board, but I play often on level immortal or deity and won many games on that level.

 

[Gliese 581]

We need information on Mecca. Let's hope it's not on a hill as that will make an initial assault on it much more feasible.
Waiting for construction is no small feat with the land we've got. Our second city has basically no commerce and no cottages have been built by the capital. I agree that there's a big risk Saladin will have longbowmen by that time, effectively cancelling out any advantage we might gain while at the same time leaving us even further behind in tech and development (along with all the other AIs).
A rush should always be focused and this one hasn't been 100% focused but even if Mecca is on a hill and strongly defended Medina could at least be captured, so throwing everything into a GW rush and hoping that Mecca is a viable target seems the best thing to do at this point for me. If it appears unfeasible then we'll have to settle with taking Medina and ******ing Saladin's progress for a 2nd war/continuation of the offensive later on.

 

[Scarredroman]

I think you mean west, CivCorpse. Taking Medina pretty much seals off the west. I expect barbarian cities to spring up in both the west and the east, preferably over that nice marble.

The whole point of the ALCs is to showcase the leader. Boudica is an axe rusher. Her land isn't set for anything else. Sisiutil hasn't built any barracks or Duns. He's not chopped and mined two hills in Birbacte and left the deer without a camp. CivCorpse, you don't believe in the axe rush, maybe you can't work one to save your life, but your advice to start with a worker did much to try to sabotage this ALC.

What to research for the next 20 turns, whilst the army is created sans barracks and Duns? Metal Casting. Forges maximise Bibracte and Vienne's productive capability.

I assume Sisutil is not to gamble and leave his cities empty and try to take Medina with what he has, now.

 

[patagonia]

Waiting for construction would be foolish. Sal will probably get it as well as HBR for jumbos. Taking Medina and Mecca seals off the east for Rexing. CoL to run a spy in Mecca with the great wall has a good chance of popping a spy...infiltrating Mansa and robbing him blind of techs. Then when the EPs run out. Robbing him blind @ swordpoint.

To add to this - not going after Sal now is horribly sub-optimal, since Sis has already researched IW ahead of writing.

Exploit the tech path chosen by going to war and back-fill later when the economy can handle it.

 

[Belisar]

But axe rushing is more of an exploit than good strategy.

Nonsense. You should tell this the AI:

Not a spoiler, just for the big picture, full credit to Rusten for his interesting games:

Spoiler :

Rusten: Hey Cathy, how's going?
Cathy: The world is not big enough for us two *declares war in 1600BC*
Rusten: Cathy, you cann't do that, stop right at my boarders, this is an exploit! All your deity bonus and such...
Cathy: What's that thing you call exploit? Never heard.

 

[CivCorpse]

I think you mean west, CivCorpse. Taking Medina pretty much seals off the west. I expect barbarian cities to spring up in both the west and the east, preferably over that nice marble.

The whole point of the ALCs is to showcase the leader. Boudica is an axe rusher. Her land isn't set for anything else. Sisiutil hasn't built any barracks or Duns. He's not chopped and mined two hills in Birbacte and left the deer without a camp. CivCorpse, you don't believe in the axe rush, maybe you can't work one to save your life, but your advice to start with a worker did much to try to sabotage this ALC.

What to research for the next 20 turns, whilst the army is created sans barracks and Duns? Metal Casting. Forges maximise Bibracte and Vienne's productive capability.

I assume Sisutil is not to gamble and leave his cities empty and try to take Medina with what he has, now.

Oooops, my compass was upside down .

As for the rest of your post, complete hogwash. Have you even looked at the save or the screen shots? He has a barracks in both cities and the deer are camped. It's a very nice camp with shower facitilities and a 24 hour recreational center.
And Boudica is built for WAR in general not just axe rushing. As a matter of fact there are better leaders for axe rushing. Any agg leader that starts with mining is a better axe rusher simply because they will get bronze working sooner and can start building axes faster. Which is mighty Joe Stalin.
As for worker first, once the settling of Bibracte revealed deer in the BFC that became a no brainer. I'm not sure what you think would be a better starting build.
RE: My inability to conduct an axe rush. I have axe rushed/impi rushed/quecha rushed/phalanx rushed/dog soldier rushed/chariot rushed a pile of times with great success. But i have much greater success attacking an opponent when i have something to support my economy after the rush. Metal Casting does not support the economy. By the time metal casting is researched and forgers are built this war should have been waged and won.
As you say the purpose of these ALC games is to showcase leaders traits as well as the UU/UB of their corrosponding civ. Boudica's UU is the GW. Axe rushing does not showcase it. And the best way to showcase a dun is by not building it. This demonstrates to the reader the fact that it is a turd of a UB.
Researching writing is the next step. It not only enables scientists but is a prerequisite to CoL for courthouses.
My only question for you is, Do you own a copy of Civ4:BtS?.

 

[Dhaulagiri]

Sisiutil hasn't built any barracks or Duns.

He has built 2 barracks. Life is good in Boodyland. Apparently dun's aren't a real benefit for GW's since the G1 promotion is free. So we could wait on those.

The granaries are 3 and 7 turns from completion. Thats a good thing for all the GW whipping about to start. If he skipped granaries it might have taken longer to whip out the army vs just start building units without granaries. Some of the math pro's could figure out the tradeoff.

As someone's shown earlier, GW's are far superior to axemen against a protective leader. They dont need iron and we had copper. It made sense to research ironworking and start the war after. Would you wait on IW when playing the Romans, or just axerush? GW's aren't praetorians but wait till you get the G3 promotions, you may change your mind. G3 infantry with pinch, CR3, C1. They dont need city bombardment or spies.

Only thing we need to worry about is Saldin hooking up iron or copper. If he has he won't have many axemen yet, so immediately pillage them. Saladin will have no counter for a long time. After medina falls, if he loads up 6 archers in his capital, take your stack to his new expansion city and raze it. Use hills to get back to his capital quickly and i guarantee he will have sent some of those archers outside in various directions for reasons only the AI would know. Maybe for scouting or he sends them to protect land in anticipation of getting a settler there, or to attack your lands. But if you move away from the target city then back again it will have less defenders.

I think we could whip a settler our of the capital after the granary is done to secure that deer/cow city, prior to building GW's. But on the other hand we could skip the settler and hope Saladin settles there while we are killing him, and take it later.

 

[slaze]

slaze, you're a little behind. He has settled on the Copper, and I think just finished IW. Now the debate is how or when to strike Sal.

Yes, and it's a shame.

 

[DMOC]

Hopefully Saladin doesn't Oracle Feudalism.

 

[Scarredroman]

Gee, CivCorpse you need to take a cold shower at that deer camp. It wasn't obvious from the screen print or write up that these things had been done.
Apparently, according to those who know and I've neverp layed Boudica by choice or random selection that Duns give G1 to all melee units. Last time I checked, axemen were melee units.

Knowing the lay of the land would have been better than having a worker first. A second scout would have given that information and the facts about Mecca would not still be in the dark. Two sources of crab are better food resources than a single deer. That obviously isn't a no-brainer to you.

In case you haven't noticed, Sisutil's economy tanking after an early war is a regular feature. The only resource Boudica has is production, so the forges maximise that. If Saladin is concentrating on wonders and settlers to the exclsuion of all else, he may offer or be pesuaded to offer a whole stack of techs, and writing is likely to be among them, for peace.

Do, pray tell, just how many turns would it take to follow your advice and create an army and economy that's not going to buckle? Saladin looks like this game's Louis. Convince me, he isn't.

 

[DMOC]

Duns don't give the Guerilla promotion to axes. I learned it the hard way in my Boudica game here.

Scarredroman - I agree about Saladin being Louis.