ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Apparently, according to those who know and I've neverp layed Boudica by choice or random selection that Duns give G1 to all melee units. Last time I checked, axemen were melee units.

Axemen are melee units, but those who really know will tell you that Dun's give Guerrilla I to all land units that would normally be eligible to get that promotion. That means archery, recon, and gunpowder units (not melee).

But explorers get it already without a Dun, and the Dun is obsolete after Rifling, so in the end it's pretty much only useful for archery units, scouts, musketeers, and grenadiers. It's worth building one or two eventually in your main military production city/cities, because why not, but it's extremely low priority.

 

[pigswill]

Need to check if Mecca's on a hill. An alternative to C1,Geurilla 3 Gallix is C1,CR2 Gallix. If Mecca's on a hill then Gallix get 25% attack bonus in addition to retreat chance. If Mecca's not on a hill then C1,Geurilla 3 gives a basic sword (6.6) with a 50% chance of withdrawal. CR2 gives 45% attack bonus. I can never figure out the exact combat odds against a CG2 archer behind a city wall. I would guess that a CR2 gallic is more likely to die but also more likely to injure the archer in the process.
Geurilla will mean that more gallix survive the initial attack but if they don't take the city first time round they're healing up in enemy territory while Sally's archers are healing faster (and may be getting promotions) and he's probably reinforcing the city.
Conclusion: if you don't take the city with the first attack you may not take it at all. CR2 gives more chance of taking city first time round (though at a higher cost).

 

[CivCorpse]

Gee, CivCorpse you need to take a cold shower at that deer camp. It wasn't obvious from the screen print or write up that these things had been done.

You can see the camp in the screen shots if you look at it. And I believe the camp was mentioned in the previous installment if that helps. As for the barracks, there is a screenshot of Bibracte that clearly lists it in the list of buildings. But your first hint should have been the blue nimbus surrounding the axemen. That means they can be promoted. Most likely they had a barracks in place.

Apparently, according to those who know and I've neverp layed Boudica by choice or random selection that Duns give G1 to all melee units. Last time I checked, axemen were melee units.

Apparently according to those who know or atleast have read the civopedia, duns do NOT give G1 to melee units. But i must agree with you on axemen being melee units. Kudos to you.

Knowing the lay of the land would have been better than having a worker first. A second scout would have given that information and the facts about Mecca would not still be in the dark. Two sources of crab are better food resources than a single deer. That obviously isn't a no-brainer to you.

Yes, knowing the lay of the land would help, and i believe sis should have one of his warriors up roaming through Arabia at this very moment. Sal has roads so it will be fairly quick. As for worker first, if you had read the full discussion leading up to round 1 you will see where someone advised that building the worker while researching fishing then switching to a WB then finisihing the worker was a little more efficient. And that was before we knew about the deer. At turn 1 sis had a scout so another wasn't critical. Building a WB from turn one was not an option since Boudica does not start with Fishing. You can confirm this with "those who know". WB's are not melee units. Just saying.

In case you haven't noticed, Sisutil's economy tanking after an early war is a regular feature.

And he recovers the crashed economy with heavy use of scientists, which require a library, which requires writing. Though maybe the magic dun that gives G1 to melle units also allows scientists. Better ask "those who know".

The only resource Boudica has is production, so the forges maximise that. If Saladin is concentrating on wonders and settlers to the exclsuion of all else, he may offer or be pesuaded to offer a whole stack of techs, and writing is likely to be among them, for peace.

I looked at the screen shots. Sis has a good amount of food in bibracte and Medina can easily support 2 scientists while working 5 cottages and a goldmine. Which will be it's happy cap. Forges add 2 happiness to each city. And an engineer if you want one. More importantly it takes 50 turns to research MC at this point. FIFTY. Do you think delaying the war for 50 turns plus the time to build forges is a good idea? I don't. As for getting all these techs from saladin in the peace talks. That will require Alphabet. Sis does not have Alphabet, noone does. Does the magic G1melee, scientist enabling dun give you tech trading ability?

Do, pray tell, just how many turns would it take to follow your advice and create an army and economy that's not going to buckle? Saladin looks like this game's Louis. Convince me, he isn't.

Approximately 13 turns. That is how long it will take to research Writing. Not fifty like MC but 13. The workers will finish chopping out the granaries in 2 and 3 turns respectively. The whip 2 GW from each city and use the 4 axes already built to take medina. Build a spear to go pilliage the iron with a shock axe. Once Sal has no metal More GW's can be built to take mecca at sis's leisure. Thirteen turns is not long at all. Charasmatic with a monument and silver (plus gold fairly soon from medina) can absorb a lot of whip anger. But I would advise taking 5-6 turns extra to chop/whip a settler to grab the cow wine spot. i would hate for mansa to settle there and put cultural pressure on that iron source.
I'm not talking about waiting for cats. never have. But 4 axemen are not going to cut it.

 

[CivCorpse]

Need to check if Mecca's on a hill. An alternative to C1,Geurilla 3 Gallix is C1,CR2 Gallix. If Mecca's on a hill then Gallix get 25% attack bonus in addition to retreat chance. If Mecca's not on a hill then C1,Geurilla 3 gives a basic sword (6.6) with a 50% chance of withdrawal. CR2 gives 45% attack bonus. I can never figure out the exact combat odds against a CG2 archer behind a city wall. I would guess that a CR2 gallic is more likely to die but also more likely to injure the archer in the process.
Geurilla will mean that more gallix survive the initial attack but if they don't take the city first time round they're healing up in enemy territory while Sally's archers are healing faster (and may be getting promotions) and he's probably reinforcing the city.
Conclusion: if you don't take the city with the first attack you may not take it at all. CR2 gives more chance of taking city first time round (though at a higher cost).

I see what you're saying. The question is, how many units will sis have that have 2 promotions? Probably around 3, since Sal usually has 2 archers per city early game plus one whipped while sis marches to the city. That means three Gallics will have won a battle for the next promotion. Maybe 1-2 more if a nice barb wanders over to be whacked. For the first wave of attackers, perhaps cover as a promotion? It gives +25% vs +20% from CR1. I agree that in the long run having a CR3 unit is better than having a coverCR2 unit, but the first troops are probably going to die so future promotions aren't a big concern. Heck send the cheap axes first then the 1 promo GW's followed by CR2 GW's. The axes give a little scratch which means the cover GW's give a little cut which means the CR2 GW's will more than likely be up to the task of taking the city. Giving your small supply of 4exp Gw's G3 means your best units are limited to attacking cities. If sal has a third city you might even get a CR3 GW or atleast close enough that a couple can go get the extra exp from barbs. Guerilla promotions are too situational to give to your best troops. The CR line is good on every city every place. With all the land to the WEST (got it right this time) to be settled, mansa will probably be attacked with siege units so "nutcrackers" are no as important.

 

[rupertmonkey]

If CivCorpse can master the mysteries of the possessive "its" he might become my favorite poster on the whole internets.

I don't really care about computer games, but I enjoy Civ. And I really like reading the ALCs because I learn stuff, but, more importantly, Sis is literate, funny, humble, and humane. Sis puts his games, his decisions, out in public for everyone to criticize, and does so with incredible grace.

CivCorpse, and the vast majority of contributors to these threads, respond in kind, offering opinions and insights, sometimes with great passion, but without personal attacks. The whole point of the forum is, in a way, to say "I disagree," but what makes it a good forum is being able to do that without ad hominem attacks. Honestly, civfanatics is one of the most collegial places I've seen on the web. Folks are nice here, by and large. Sis is nice. CivCorpse is nice. Despite how niceness is often ridiculed, it's actually quite a good quality. I don't mean to be cheesy (well, I do a bit) but "Civilization" and "civility" don't look similar just outta coincidence. If you find yourself being something other than nice, civil, I would ask you to please rethink your tone.

Thank you again, Sis, for hosting this party. Thank you, CivCorpse, for being one of the more entertaining guests here. I apologize to anyone offended by my call for civility. (That's a joke, actually, the last bit.)

 

[CivCorpse]

Thank you Rupert...and now you must die because as much as I appreciate your kind words, you have traded with my worst enemy. The evil kingdom of Possessive Pronouns. IT'S nothing personal, but every thing has IT'S time and place. I shall now execute a perefctly timed rush using iron tipped spears...I.T.S. for short.

 

[Grames]

If Saladin is concentrating on wonders and settlers to the exclsuion of all else, he may offer or be pesuaded to offer a whole stack of techs, and writing is likely to be among them, for peace.

Please don't clutter the thread with posts ignorant of elementary game mechanics.

 

[Scarredroman]

I'm trying to discern a stategy here from your posts CivCorpse. It just seems to me that your posts, by starting with a worker, say build first and then war. Perhaps you are running a shadow game doing that and being successful. Somehow, it just doesn't feel right to do that with Boudica.

You'd wait 13 turns for the granaries to finish, build 2 GWs, I Axe and I Spear leaving 1 warrior to defend two cities. You'd then have 2 workers build 5 cottages to run 2 scientists in a library in Medina, once taken and out of revolt. Wouldn't that library have to be whipped leaving unhappiness to be dealt with and then there's the unhappiness because Saladin is still in existence?

Then there's your recommendation to build a couple of settlers, to settle in the west, and have them produce troops. That would, I believe, take longer than 13 turns. You've suggested buiilding 10-12 GWs and an axe and spear for each city. Whipping and chopping that amount would leave many turns of unhappiness reducing the productive capabilities of Sisiutil's cities. That's what causes his economy to tank.Your recommendation as the strategy before the second war to finish Saladin off would work. A second scout built from the start would have told us something about the north that now is rather too late to discover.

In order for techs to be ffered in peace, there's an implied possesion of Alphabet. Those whjo know and those who really know, thanks for your input, tell me the Civpedia isn't always right. In the solitary game I played as Brennus, four horsemen of the apocalypse arrived to spoil the party, so I never did find out how magical Duns were - seemed to make me a bit happier, though that might have just been the beer.

Now, I fully realise that leaving both cities undefended is a gamble and that I or rather Sisiutil can expect Medina to be defended by 2 archers behind a wall. "i" know 2 of "my" axes will die, but "I'm" hoping the 2 others and the warrior will see "me" through.

I am not suggesting the war wait 50 turns whilst MC is researched. If I'm ight in my assumption about Saladin wanting to build the Pyramids at all costs, he will provide a lot of Techs to be allowed to do that. I don't see the point of researching something Saladin's (I think) likely to offer for peace. I'm also assuming that Saladin has an neighbour north of him, towards whom he cannot show weakness and so fix his units in place.

 

[pigswill]

If Sally's building pyramids then there's plenty of time to build up an army (though probably not enough time to research construction first). Its' not guaranteed that Sally will build pyramids. He may have swopped from wonder-spam strategy to rex strategy or even "kick Sis' butt" strategy.

Its' not too late to start a war at 1000bc. If you looked at a time frame of eg 16 turns before DoW then with open borders a couple of axes can stroll 8 tiles north and 8 tiles back and be in place for the declaration which sorts out the scouting issue.

Once you've started building a stack then you're pretty much committed to war because you've lost several turns and lots of production if you don't and its' a bit late to suddenly start building wonders or trying to knock out settlers instead.

 

[Matthew5117]

2 Rounds and already 15 Pages, I think it is time to update!

 

[madscientist]

What, Sal is not dead yet??? Sis, what the devil are you doing with Boudica over there!

 

[Polobo]

It just seems to me that your posts, by starting with a worker, say build first and then war.

I think you are one of the only people with more than 200 posts on this forum who actually think that a worker first build implies "build then war". Workers are necessary in any game and, as such, should be built AS SOON AS THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO. The only reason to anything else first would be a scout to get goody huts or work boats to setup seafood so building that first worker goes more quickly. Scouting territory is important but can be delayed somewhat, plus you cannot scout inside borders without writing (and open borders) anyway.

I agree that with the 3 hammer tile and hunting that a second scout would have been nice but I don't think that it would change the worker second build nor the approach to the war; except we'd have one more scout that is only good as fodder and a little less production since the camp would have been delayed.

 

[Joshua368]

I agree that with the 3 hammer tile and hunting that a second scout would have been nice but I don't think that it would change the worker second build nor the approach to the war; except we'd have one more scout that is only good as fodder and a little less production since the camp would have been delayed.

Scouts suck anyway, they might last for the first thousand years but then they'll die, they can barely handle animals much less barbs. If I ever need more exploring units, I wait until chariots.

Back on topic, we obviously need an update soon. This thread is going insane.

 

[Polobo]

Scouts inside territorial borders are unlikely to be attacked. The extra knowledge of the land in those first 1000 years has value and it never disappears. They have 2 movement and thus can run away from bears and tigers and can easily kill wolves. Panthers (which seem rare) are their only real enemy. In this game, being on the southern border, it would been very helpful to send one around the western coast and the other around the eastern until they hit culture and then move back inside to clear the darkness. We'd have a lot more information to determine whether further expansion would be warranted or if war is the priority; it would be nice to take a chance that Sal would build the Pyramids and then capture them as well and deal with Mansa for now.

 

[pigswill]

My scouts don't seem to run away from bears when they end their turn 1 tile away from them (1 bear or 2 lions tend to do the trick, even on a forest hill). Maybe I'm just unlucky. If anyone knows any tricks on spotting bears hidden in the shadows I'd be glad to hear from them.
Haven't heard from Our Gracious Host recently.....

 

[DMOC]

A trick you can use on high levels is only moving the scout ONE space at a time. If a scout has 2 movement points and all tiles surrounding him in a 4 tile radius are flatlands, then you should move the scout ONE space only, and not use the second movement point and risk being attacked by a bear.

Obviously this isn't foolproof, but it does work to an extent.

 

[Siesta Guru]

Whoa sis is popular, 2 rounds and 296 posts?

Anyways, kil saladin!!! Go rush 'im with them shiny axes son!

Animal husbandry seems a bit silly aswell, that city wont pop its border for a while and your workers have enough on their hands as it is. Id recommend getting archery for barbs or a counter-attack from saladin, writing is good aswell if your not too worried about that.

 

[r_rolo1]

As this is going in to a near flame-war status....

Instead of waiting for Sisiutil to write, why don't you listen to him?

 

[whakamole]

Animal husbandry seems a bit silly aswell, that city wont pop its border for a while and your workers have enough on their hands as it is.

AH isn't completely useless, as it reveals horses, both to hook up in our territory and to see if Sal has any (and necessitate spear building for our troops).

That said, I'm in the camp that says writing is a better tech at this point. If we see an empty pasture being worked, we'll know Saladin has horses.

I'm also urging the possibility of razing Medina to reposition it better to claim the gold & possibly share out the floodplains with a second city... unless, of course, Sally builds a wonder there or it becomes a holy city.

 

[azzaman333]

AH isn't completely useless, as it reveals horses, both to hook up in our territory and to see if Sal has any (and necessitate spear building for our troops).

That said, I'm in the camp that says writing is a better tech at this point. If we see an empty pasture being worked, we'll know Saladin has horses.

I'm also urging the possibility of razing Medina to reposition it better to claim the gold & possibly share out the floodplains with a second city... unless, of course, Sally builds a wonder there or it becomes a holy city.

Only problem with razing Medina is that it will leave a desert river tile behind, rather than a floodplain tile.