ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

[Sisiutil]

Stop fretting over wonders, you can't have any until Spain is taken care of.

Yes mom. Do I have to finish my vegetables too?

Nope, I didn't pay attention to that particular detail. Maybe I'm just overestimating AIs ability to pull techs and improvements out of thin air.

Has it been announced that she's adopted Slavery yet?

Sounds like you're playing at a much higher level if you're used to them doing that.

I went back and checked the game log, and no, she has not adopted Slavery; Isabella has, however, adopted Organized Religion. Either someone beat her to Judaism, or she has another city that I haven't found yet.

Victoria has adopted Slavery, so she definitely has Bronze Working. Nevertheless, it's best not to underestimate your enemy. I'm not going to assume Izzy doesn't have access to copper. I'm hoping Woody will find it so I can pillage it.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

You really have no reason to build Axemen, except for anti-spear purposes. If you need city-raiders, build swordsmen, but other than that, War-Chariots can take care of any military problem. Remember that WCs only cost 25 hammers apiece compared to the 35 for an Axe or Spear. They are also faster and more mobile, so you should be able to mob most any metal-units that come your way. Also remember that war-chariots are as fast as scouts, so you can use a one of those to scout out Vicky's land, and one you have found her metal, declare war and pillage (ususlly only 1 Civ per continent gets metal-screwed). If it's guarded by a spear, just make sure you have about 4 WCs ready to take it out, or see if some diversionary tactics can make it walk away.

As for tactics to defeat the AI, I noticed a certain behavior, that after an AI has been rather reduced in city-numbers, it will attempt to send out settlers to try to found new cities (even during wartime). This has the simultaneous effect of diverting AI production away from military, and that they escort their settlers. You get free workers, free Exp, and reduced city defenders. They will only actually leave the city though if there are no enemy troops within the radius, so if you "cut them some slack" that is, withdraw for a turn, they will send their settler out into the wilds escorted by 2 archers. At this time, you can easily kill them (5.5 vs. 3 = slaughter), and you will be able to assault the capitol while the defenses are low. This is how I took Madrid at any rate. It also helped having a Vision+1 chariot so that I could see 3 tiles away (if next to hill).

As for your military, You only have about 10 war-chariots, so you have no business building slow expensive Axemen. Maybe once you have 15-16 WCs, but not until then. Remember, a war chariot brings to battle the same 5 strength that an Axeman does, only about twice as fast and at 70% the price. The only cost is a vulnerability to spears, and lack of city-raider options.

Once you have razed Seville and captured Barcelona, the time has come to bring war to the English. You don't necessarily have to attack them just yet, but if they are at war with you, they will send their metal-army out into the open against you if they percive any weaknesses. I must keep re-iterating, you have the military capability to fight simultaneous wars. Just trust in the War-chariot, it will shut down your foes.

Lastly, don't bother with Alphabet. Go straight for Code of Laws. Waiting 30 turns to declare war just so you can get a few paltry technologies is not worth it. Pillage money, and Vandal's gold and gems should be able to get you to where you need.

 

[Nares]

I went back and checked the game log, and no, she has not adopted Slavery; Isabella has, however, adopted Organized Religion. Either someone beat her to Judaism, or she has another city that I haven't found yet.

I was under the impression Judaism was still up for grabs. Now the question becomes, is she going for Iron Working or Code of Laws (Confuscianism). My guess is IW, especially if she's lacking Copper (either one has the same result: Spearmen).

Not that Archers are no slouches.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Archers fortified in cities are no slouches. Out in the open field, they get slaughtered by war-chariots.

A little detail with worker-management: If you face the choice of building a road over a hill or through a desert, choose the hill. It takes the same number of worker-turns (3 vs. 2+1 movement), but hills will later need improvements in them, and are of higher defensive value. Just a little nit-pick. Get crackin' on those cottages though, 14 commerce can't fund an empire.

Speaking of which, your goal is not really to just "build a large empire" or "get a nice tech lead" or "nice cities". Your goal is to get the strong position; your goal is to conquer the entire continent. The only good choices are those which will help you conquer as fast as possible without hemoraging your treasury. Once the Spanish and English are dead, you can be as peaceful as you want, but not until then. If you can kill them, you should. Having the continent to yourself is priceless.

 

[Sisiutil]

Hans, you and I are thinking along the same lines with the same goal in mind: the continent all to myself. I can pursue just about any victory condition I want from that point, unmolested by any opposition (except barbs) until the renaissance era and Galleons.

I'll take your word for how to use the War Chariots--your recommendations (barracks and Combat I promotions) have certainly proven correct so far. I'll continue building the Chariots and switch to some Swordsmen, probably just in Thebes, in a while.

We saw in the Monty game that a city with a high cultural defense (Thebes with 60% in that one) can be overcome by brute force/numbers. As you say, WCs are relatively cheap--Thebes is certainly being prolific in their production. A 4-to-1 ratio of WCs attacking Madrid is certainly conceivable. And several of them will be at Combat II and even III (a couple are there already) by then.

I have noticed the AI doing that with Settlers and escorts in the middle of a war before. I'll see about getting one of the WCs up to the visibility promotion; I believe I'll have to follow the Flanking promotion path for that one.

I think you're also correct about the research path. I'll jump over to CoL and probably push the slider back up to 100% for awhile to rush it. War booty will have to finance research until the cottages come on-line. I'm going to get all my workers busy with those ASAP. After that, it's courthouses everywhere. Give some thought to Forbidden Palace, I'm not going to want to wait too long before building it, and I'm not averse to relocating the capital, either.

 

[drkodos]

Archers fortified in cities are no slouches. Out in the open field, they get slaughtered by war-chariots.

They are strong in wooded areas though. I've made that mistake too often and had swords bite the dust because of my hastiness attacking them outside their city in the surrounding woods.

 

[vormuir]

Sisiutl, we sort of blew past your Roman war. But that was an awfully fast takedown! Have you ever eliminated an opponent that early before? How well did the chariot rush seem to work?

Totally random note: one annoying omission in Civ IV is the lack of a utility that tells you what civics the AI civs are running. Having to scroll back through the game log is rubbish. I should be able to click somewhere and see, ah hah, Monte is running Theocracy. Or whatever.


Waldo

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I tested out the conquest options for your 975BC save, and it looks like you started conquering a bit later than I, since spain and England had far more development.

Regardless, I was able to conquer Spain by 575BC and have enough war-chariots to overwhelm England's copper-mine defenses. I'm not sure If I'll have conquest by 200BC, but they will fall under the wheels of my(your) chariots. I lost 4 chariots conquering spain, since I got lucky and faced Madrid with only 2 defenders (which still killed 2 chariots). I captured a settler and a worker in the process which are now working on hooking up the three (!) luxury resources available in Vandal. Vandal will save your economy's butt.

Some axement might be necessary in the destruction of Vicky's metal army (you know she has copper at this point), but cheap chariots should carry the day. After all, axemen can only fight 1 on 1 with war-chariots, and the AI isn't terribly keen on massing spears. And I won't let them since copper is my primary target.

I also did a surprising move: I took the liberty of constructing Stonehenge in 7 turns in Thebes. It's not so much for the obelisks (creative), it's for the Great-Prophet points that will be necessary to develop the holy-cities for their gold.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Totally random note: one annoying omission in Civ IV is the lack of a utility that tells you what civics the AI civs are running. Having to scroll back through the game log is rubbish. I should be able to click somewhere and see, ah hah, Monte is running Theocracy. Or whatever.


Waldo

Its on the upper portion of the diplo screen when you talk to them... its in Icons, but its there. (not what it should be, but better than scrolling)

 

[Sisiutil]

Sisiutl, we sort of blew past your Roman war. But that was an awfully fast takedown! Have you ever eliminated an opponent that early before? How well did the chariot rush seem to work?

Totally random note: one annoying omission in Civ IV is the lack of a utility that tells you what civics the AI civs are running. Having to scroll back through the game log is rubbish. I should be able to click somewhere and see, ah hah, Monte is running Theocracy. Or whatever.

Waldo

The takedown of Rome was awfully fast because it was awfully early. Caesar had only two cities and no Praets. Antium was only protected by a single Archer. Rome had two. He had a couple of other Archers wandering around in the bush for some strange reason. The WC rush definitely did the trick there, and no, I don't think I've taken out an opponent that quickly and that early in Civ IV before.

What I'm finding very interesting about this game, and what's really setting it apart from the previous three ALC games, is that this one really is all about the unique unit. Even in the Qin game, with that machinery slingshot, the Cho-Ko-Nus did not dominate my overall strategy like the War Chariots have here. The difference, of course, is that unlike CKNs, WCs are a VERY early UU; and unlike Jaguars (going back to the Monty game), they're extremely useful. So up to now, and for several turns in the future I suspect, everything has been dictated by the WCs: finding horses, going to war early on, forgoing wonders.

WCs don't have the rep that, say, Praetorians do. Unlike a Praet, an individual WC is not that impressive. But the difference with the WCs, as Hans has been emphasizing, is their cost. These things are dirt-cheap. If you get a good early production city running (like Thebes is for me), you can mass these things and swarm an enemy with them. Plus they're fast, too. That 2 movement makes a big difference when there are so few roads built.

We'll see how they hold up as the game goes on, of course.

As to your other point: you can see what civics the AIs are running in their diplomacy screen; their civics are listed as tiny icons just above the leaderhead. I'd still prefer a way to see them nin the diplomatic advisor screen, though.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

If I do manage to own the continent early, I'll have a problem with barbs. But if they conveniently build any cities in these locations, like Vandal, well who am I to question their unfathomable motives?

In playing on from your 975 BC save, I just spotted a barbarian city spring-up in Location "I", just north of the middle dye. The prospects for barbarian cities arising according to plan appear to be good.

I will also confirm that Vandal is a life-saver with its mineral riches.

 

[Disco Bandit]

Hans, that might border on spoilers (re: the barbarian city).

Having followed most of your ALC games (the first Chinese one was over so quickly I never really read it), this chariot strategy is fun. Inspired by this game, I've played two games where a chariot rush has been my foremost strategy (once as the Egypts, once as the Persians for their immortals). It completely changes the way the early game is played ( I no longer am able to build early wonders), but it's a very fun alternative and a very effective method of early war. Kudos to everyone involved.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

A spoiler? Nay! The barbarian cities are both random and inevitable. He;s going to find barbarian cities popping up, and it seems likely that they will appear in spots that won't too terribly contradict The Plan.

I sincerely doubt that Sisiutil will get a barbarian city at location "I" when I did, or even at all for that matter. Them barbs is random (and timewise, it's far beyond the domain of "preserve random seed").

 

[drkodos]

A spoiler? Nay! The barbarian cities are both random and inevitable.

Agreement.

 

[Sisiutil]

I would tend to agree that barb cities are pretty random, rather like the goody huts--notice I got completely different results on those. Interesting, however, that Vandal seemed to appear in the same location for others shadowing the game.

The point, however, is to carefully consider the location of each city before capture and subsequent razing or keeping. The dotmap will certainly help in this regard. (It is a little ironic that I razed one Civ's capital and am going to keep a barbarian city instead.) Given my goal of wiping other civs off this continent, I'm going to be extremely busy in the mid-game founding cities. So I'm going to be very tempted to keep any barb city that crops up.

DB, when I looked back on the two Chinese games recently I thought I played and posted both too quickly. I'm trying to slow down a little for this game. At the same time, I try to play enough turns to have some significant events, even a turning point, occur in the game. Thus, rather than post each battle in taking Rome, I posted the results.

Mind you, I'm thinking that when I take on Spain (and even capturing Vandal), I will post more details of the battles. As I said, the UU rush is turning into the focus and highlight of the game thus far, and everyone is showing an interest in their tactical use.

 

[Nares]

Interesting, however, that Vandal seemed to appear in the same location for others shadowing the game.

My Vandal was Minoan (same placement).

Anyway, on a side note, when I finally got around to loading the 4000BC save, I played it through, and discovered a fairly amusing feature of how the savegame files work.

I've previously edited in two additional leaders (Ind/Phi and Cre/Org) into my copy of the game (working it into a mod seemed a bit time consuming and more difficult than direct XML editing of the base files). I have the civ which offers those two leaders accessable only by human control (I can pick them, I can pick them for the AI, I can be assigned one randomly, but the AI cannot be assigned one randomly). For those who didn't know, you can turn off whole civs, but not individual leaders.

Anyway, I was playing through this game, and I encountered Julius. Two turns later, I encountered Julius again....

I was highly confused, but after taking a quick look at the score chart, I noticed that one of the Julii I encountered was one of the custom AIs I had edited into my copy (the Ind/Phi leader, which I based off of Rome originally, so the associated artwork, sounds, specific AI settings etc were a copy of JC). No less, this foreign leader was not of the civ I had edited into the game, but was English (same as in your copy).

Long story short, the savegame saves the civs, then the leaders. It reads the leaders from the order they're listed in the XML files. For example, it would save it as English, leader XX, where XX is from the overall list of leaders. My two extra leaders (placed alphabetically) resulted in the English leader being one of my custom leaders, and not Victoria.

Simple editing, by moving my custom leaders to the end of my leader XML file, fixed the problem. But it was a suprise to me, to say the least.

 

[pigswill]

Whilist I'm confident that you can conquer the continent early on I'm not sure that you should. City maintenance is likely to nerf your research for a considerable period; could be a pyrrhic victory. Time will tell. (Doom,gloom, I'd be glad to be proven wrong).
I've started a shadow of your game. I was following your game beforehand so it's obviously 'spoiled' though I have been doing things a bit different. Got up to 975bc, wiped out rome with chariots c 1300 bc but then branched by building oracle for CoL slingshot. I think I'll go for settling half the continent first and warring later for the rest. Might be interesting to compare approaches later on (maybe around 1500 ad if you haven't won domination before then).
P.S. I also got a barb city in roughly the same place as Vandal.
PPS It's worth remembering that war chariots are immune to first strike (making them stronger than axes vs archers outside cities)

 

[Nares]

Whilist I'm confident that you can conquer the continent early on I'm not sure that you should. City maintenance is likely to nerf your research for a considerable period; could be a pyrrhic victory. Time will tell.

Those two holy cities are killer. I'm thinking I might go back and just raze them for the fun of it.

With the early game production powerhouses that are Thebes and Memphis (as placed in Sisutil's version of the save), pumping out Stonehenge and The Oracle are both very much a possibility. I easily managed to found Confuscianism, so having at least one religion was not a problem in the slightest.

I think I'll go for settling half the continent first and warring later for the rest.

That sounds pretty reasonable. Cutting back England and Spain isn't a bad idea, but picking up the extra upkeep of those two Holy cities is restrictive (especially with all those military units so far from Egyptian borders; damn you cheap War Chariots). When I was last playing, my woes were compounded by Victoria founding Christianity in a Tundra-bound city (SE of London), and the minor expansion (four cities) I had done in the meantime (Re-Rome, 1W as Sisituil suggests; the perpetual Vandal location; the NE Gold city, south of Memphis, which is extremely profitable for its size; and the Copper/Gems/Rice/ SW of Thebes).

EDIT: Now post already Sisitul. I see you lurking the forums...

PS:

It's peanut butter jelly time Peanut butter jelly time

(waiting on Part Two)

Where ya at Where ya at Where ya at

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 5: to 400 BC

Part One: Cry, "Havoc!"

This will be a three part post tonight, as I wanted to explore the use of the War Chariots in more detail.

Before I went on to the next move, I made a few changes based on the suggestions everyone had. First off, I went to see Vicky:

With the Open Borders agreement in place, I went to check on my research. I tried changing it to Code of Laws, but of course, CoL has a bunch of pre-requisites--none of which I have, starting with Mysticism. So I kept researching Alphabet, hoping to do some trading (or extorting) for those pre-reqs.

Thebes produced a couple of Axemen before I changed the build back to War Chariots. I sent them south--one with a City Raider promotion to use against Spain, the other with a Combat I to fortify Vandal once it was taken. As the War Chariots rumbled off the assembly line, I kept a few in my core cities, because guess what started showing up:

Yes, the first of many barbs to appear from the many enfogged areas on my continent. But more about them later.

Actually, more about them now. My next target on the drive south was that very enticing city of Vandal. It was protected by two Warriors. Check out the odds War Chariots get against Warriors:

With those odds, how can you say no? Vandal only required two WCs to attack before falling. I'm glad to have it; I'm going to need the money.

My other WCs were within range of Spain, Seville specifically. I was going to wait a couple more turns for all of my units to mass on Isabellas's border, but one of my travelling WCs revealed that she had a settler accompanied by a City Garrison II Archer just west of Seville. Now in the open field, that Archer was not going to be a problem; but if the Settler built a city, that Archer would be much tougher. So I declared war then mainly to get an easy kill of the Archer, prevent another Spanish city from appearing, and to nab yet another Worker.

With the CGII Archer dispatched and the captured Settler-cum-Worker headed to Vandal, I massed my forces around Seville.

As you can see, that Combat I WC didn't exactly have ideal odds. But my Combat III veteran on the hill wasn't facing much better chances--about 75% or so. This presented me with that typical Civ warring dilemma: attack with the unit with fewer promotions and lower odds, resulting in the likely loss of said unit; or attack with the unit with more promotions and better odds, but risk the loss of a veteran.

I decided to let the kid have a crack at it. And whaddya know, he pulled it off! One of his contemporaries face much better odds against Seville's only other surviving defender, a Warrior:

Seville was razed, and I pressed on towards Barcelona.

Now at first, Barcelona did not appear too intimidating:

Given that WCs are immune to first strikes, a drill-promoted Archer wasn't much of a threat. However, as I swooped in my WCs for the kill, Isabella quickly reinforced the city. Two City Garrison archers appeared there on the next turn, before I had enough forces within striking distance for a safe attack even on the original two. (Remember I want to keep Barcelona, so it wouldn't do to have only one battle-weakened unit holding it, ripe for counter-attack and recapture.)

I had to take some time to gather more forces. Meanwhile, I kept two WCs squatting on the cow tile north of the city to deny its food and especially production to Izzy.

Long story short, I only lost two units in the attack; one other one became severely damaged, but managed to withdraw. In fact, in this and some other battles in the field against Izzy's units, several of my WCs withdrew from otherwise-certain destruction. I haven't seen so many withdrawals from combat before, but then again, I haven't based a military campaign on a unit with that capability until this game.

It took most of my available WCs to pull it off, but Barcelona fell, and I kept it:

As you can see, I had a little cleanup of Izzy's forces in the field to do, but then it was on to Madrid--a battle which is recounted in detail in Part Two. Scroll on, gentle reader...

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 5: to 400 BC

Part Two: The Fall of Madrid

The purpose of this post is to explore how I'm using the War Chariots in combat by exploring the attack on a specific city in detail. I chose Madrid because in the previous round, it looked extremely formidable, especially with that 60% cultural defense and several defenders.

By the time I got to Madrid with my War Chariots, the city was a little less well-defended than it had been a few turns before, when Woody II was visiting. I suspect some of its Archers had been killed by my War Chariots either in the field or on Barcelona. I cannot fault the AI for this; most humans would also reinforce a city under attack, hoping to stop an enemy advance.

(Oh, I should mention that poor Woody has joined his Scout compatriot and is pushin' up the daisies. The war declaration bounced him out of Spain's territory, but a Spanish chariot hunted him down on the following turn. Rest easy, noble Warrior--you have served your civ well. >sniff<)

It took several turns to heal and amass my War Chariots for an attack. I chose the plains hill southeast of the city as my staging area. It did not offer any protection to the WCs, who do not receive defensive bonuses. However, check the protective curve of the river around Madrid. The hill was the location closest to Barcelona, from whence my WCs were travelling, that would not present a -25% crossing-the-river penalty to my units. No sense making a tough attack even tougher.

As my WCs collected on the hill, look at what Izzy did to her defenses:

Of all the non-sensical things the AI does, this is the one that bugs me the most, because it severely diminishes the challenge of the game. No human player would move units out of a city that is obviously about to be the target of a massed attack. But I've seen the AI do this on a regular basis.

There was a Settler inside Madrid a turn before this (I unfortunately didn't get a screencap). Isabella obviously managed to sneak the Settler and a couple of defensive units out of Madrid--I never saw them again. I'm certain they went north, using Spain's road network for a quick escape.

But I couldn't spare the WCs to go chasing after it. The reduction of defenders was not going to make things much easier, you see. Check out these odds:

Granted, that's for a Combat I unit, but the Combat III's weren't presented with much better chances--about 33% or so.

But I had no choice. Check the top left of the screenshot. The research slider is at 0%, and I'm one measly GPT in the black. I had the Workers around my cities scrambling to build cottages, and I was micromanaging citizens' tile assignments to get them going, but it was going to take several turns for any of them to kick in. I was trying to run my economy on war booty, but this early in the game, there isn't that much to be had. I had to stop producing military units to prevent their maintenance from completely crashing my economy completely. With a war in its final stages and barbs popping up like weeds back home, I couldn't afford a strike and units disbanding on me.

I was running out of time and money, so I launched the attack. The green units functioned as Catapult substitutes--not removing defenses or causing collateral damage, of course, because they're incapable of that. No, their job was to damage the city's defenders. The odds and my shrinking number of attackers tell the tale:

I lost four WCs in total in the attack. However, notice the steadily-increasing odds. And one unit survived a horrible mauling down to about 0.4% strength, but withdrew. More units survived than I truly expected.

I am heartily impressed with the War Chariots, especially with Combat promotions. My hat is off to Hans in particular for his guidance regarding their proper configuration and use. The WCs are growing worthy, in my mind, of competition in general (if not in the field) with Praetorians and Redcoats. Again, their secret is not really in their strength, but in their number--which is relatively easy to achieve given their low cost compared to other units.

A final note: that Spanish Settler never made it to its destination, wherever it was. As with other units, if a civ's last city falls, Settlers are dissolved and vanish as if they never were.

Adios, Espagna.