ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

[Betafor]

Congrats - If you really wanna have fun micromanaging, start with a Modern start on one continent per team! Wow!

 

[Eqqman]

Some of my thoughts on a few specific features of this ALC game:

1. Metal Casting/Pyramids Gambit

This was very exacting, but a lot of fun, and very satisfying to pull off. I've been forgoing the Pyramids in most of my games because of the AI beating me to them; it was, therefore, exciting to come across a strategy that practically guaranteed success in building them. While Eggman did spell out an exact procedure, I found in a couple of parallel games as other leaders that all you really need to follow are some basic guidelines (see Eggman's posts early in the thread for the specifics):

1) a strict research path
2) a strict build order
3) the 3/3/3 rule for the 2nd city
4) prioritizing roads and pre-chopping on forest tiles, especially around the 2nd (forge) city
5) getting that forge built within 6 turns maximum after the Oracle is complete.

The main provision of this gambit is that you pretty much have to be playing as a Philosophical leader. It would be possible, of course, to pull it off without the +100% Great Person production, but also far riskier. You don't necessarily have to be militarily weak until the Pyramids are built, either. I was able to build Chariots for early protection. In a parallel game as Mao, I had copper nearby and was able to build Axemen.

All in all, a very worthwhile gambit and one I will definitely be trying again.

Despite my ability to tell you exactly how the first 3000 years are going to play out from the opening screenshot, I don't actually like playing with a calculator in hand either . How much preplanning you go through is going to depend almost entirely on your answers to two questions: Do I care what time I finish? and What are my tech prices? If missing the 1000 BC goal isn't going to bother you then it's going to be far more relaxing. Leaders like Alexander though are missing so many techs that slight changes in map speed/settings make the difference between possible and nearly impossible. Starting with a new leader I'll have to at least calculate the turns needed to research the tree just to be sure it's possible. Once I'm certain of that I can stick the calculator back on the shelf.

2. Specialist Economy
The success of the SE seems to have a few additional pre-requisites: the Pyramids for early Representation; for achieving that, a Philosophical leader; terrain that lends itself to heavy food production. Also, the SE requires a lot more micro-management. As a result, I don't recommend it for beginners.

With the importance of specialists and therefore settled Great People, once again, a Philosophical leader is the best choice, I think, for the SE. There's an obvious synergy there with the MC/P gambit, as I mentioned. Frederick is a very strong choice for both strategies, as his Creative trait means you can forgo Stonehenge completely and focus on the two essential early wonders, and Creative is very good for warmongering to recover territory quickly.

Just to make it clear for new readers, the MC/P gambit should not be carved in stone as the only way to go for SE. We originally started working it out to answer the question how fast can a non-Industrious civ get the Pyramids out without Stone? If you're Industrious and/or have Stone nearby, you can always just go for Masonry and chop, chop, chop. Of course Philosophical civs have the advantage spawning additional Great People to settle later.

As for the other vanilla civ philosophical leaders, here's my take:

Saladin: Probably right up there with Frederick, maybe even better. Taking complete advantage of the Pyramids doesn't just mean using one civic ahead of its time, but using several of them. Saladin's Spiritual trait would allow you to easily change between Representation most of the time for research, US for some rush-buying, and Police State when war weariness gets bad. Ditto for the other civics, Slavery/Caste System in particular. He also starts with two of the techs on the MC/P gambit's list, cheap temples are also handy for managing WW, and his starting techs are on the MC/P path. He doesn't have the greatest UU, but I think his many other strengths make up for that. I'm anxious to try out Saladin with the MC/P and SE and see how it goes.

I agree he's probably the easiest and he's the first leader I pulled off MC/P with. Starting with the Wheel means you never have to worry about wasted Worker turns and Mysticism gives you a jump on starting Oracle plus the outside shot of founding a religion on higher levels. I think this gives him a better chance at pulling it off under the widest array of opening maps.

Mao: Weaker, I think. The real strength of the Organized trait, I've long argued, is cheap courthouses. The best way to take advantage of them is an early war. If you pursue the MC/P gambit, you're not going to be warring early. Also, with all the gold you should be generating, cheap civics are not going to be that noticeable a benefit. Still, Mao starts with two techs that are likely to be very useful for the MC/P gambit and he has a decent mid-game UU which the MC slingshot will make available earlier.

I still haven't actually pulled this off with Mao although I'm sure I probably could at this point. His starting techs are very good for this. The main reason I never did it with him was because it was in the early days when I still made all the usual MC/P mistakes- 2nd city too far away, not starting Oracle soon enough, trying to get the cultural borders on 2nd city popped, etc.

Elizabeth: You could still use the MC/P gambit with Elizabeth, but a specialist economy? Fuggedaboudit. Good Queen Bess is Financial, and with the SE, you're just not taking advantage of that trait. Go CE with Liz.

Aside from the fact that you're wasting Financial, I've also found it very hard to pull off MC/P with her, for the same reason I do with Alexander: Fishing is a wasted tech. To get things done fast the research tree has to be kept very short in the beginning.

Alexander: Alex will be the leader for the next ALC, so it may be interesting to try the SE again and refine it. As the SE is ideal for warmongering, and Alex is Aggressive, this sounds like a match made in heaven. Unfortunately, neither of his starting techs are needed for the MC/P gambit, putting him at a bit of a disadvantage in that regard. Better hope that his initial Scout can get to more goody huts and pop some techs, or you've got an uphill battle.

I think Alexander has to be about the worst leader possible for MC/P. Elizabeth's Financial means you can shave off a little on your research times but this isn't that much of a help, Alex doesn't even get this benefit. To get either of these leaders in on a reasonable schedule you have to use game settings that reduce tech prices or have a commerce tile. Now, if you're interested in some more experimenting I can get you producing Cavalry with him by 1000 AD or earlier, or you could be be drafting Rifles by ~1200 AD (although this is a little dodgy and relies on a good map). However both plans rely on heavy cottaging in the capital so you wouldn't be doing SE. On the plus side though you have far more freedom to fight an early war; shooting for Rifles you'll be ready with Macemen in the BC years.

Peter: Ah, now this leader would really lend himself to UncleJJ's argument in favour of Slavery and the whip over Caste System in the SE. Whipping, as we saw in the Vicky ALC game, is most powerful in the hands of an Expansive leader thanks to those cheap granaries. Even better, if you luck out with the map, you can plunk down your science city in the midst of as many floodplains as you can find without having to worry about health problems for a long, long time. And how can you not love Cossacks? Since the SE lends itself to rushing early and mid-game techs, you could have the Russian UU very early.

For MC/P his techs put him at a disadvantage along with Frederick, and he doesn't get the 2nd city placement freedom that Frederick's Creative provides. I'm not sure how he can come in before 1000 BC without access to a commerce tile or popping something like Mysticism from a hut like you did with Frederick.

------------------------------

Some additional questions for Sisiutil:

Once things got going, how often were you outside the range of having 5-10 turns to research techs?

Were you able to get the required science buildings in place when you needed them? It's easy to do some math and say with so many cities each with a library and university you get 'X' tech rate. It's another story to get those cities with those improvements when you need them.

About how many turns of peace did you have between wars? Most of your screenshots show eras of peace with a cash-on-hand and GPT that are always way too high for SE (in other words, you're building up too much between fights). Next time it would help to have some shots of the turn you declare peace. If you have several hundred in the bank and your GPT at 0% is maybe 20 in the red, you probably have time to get another city under your belt. The pace of conquest in this game seemed a little slow, but it's unfair to judge when we can't see the tactical situation and your accounts the turn you make peace. Something you may look into in the future is simply accepting cease fires as opposed to peace treaties. Take a city and get a cease fire to delay the AI's counterattack, then get a turn or two of healing and reinforcements and go to war again without having to wait out the whole ten turns.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I would argue that it supports not trying to make a switch, since at this stage the game is basically over.

In this game, yes. I meant more in the general sense, like if you're going for a space race victory. I think pigwill's comparison numbers demonstrate what everyone has been saying -- that the specialist economy tends to fall behind on research late in the game, so if that's an issue for you (it isn't in this game), then you better make a change to cottages.

 

[Sisiutil]

Some additional questions for Sisiutil:

Once things got going, how often were you outside the range of having 5-10 turns to research techs?

Were you able to get the required science buildings in place when you needed them? It's easy to do some math and say with so many cities each with a library and university you get 'X' tech rate. It's another story to get those cities with those improvements when you need them.

About how many turns of peace did you have between wars? Most of your screenshots show eras of peace with a cash-on-hand and GPT that are always way too high for SE (in other words, you're building up too much between fights). Next time it would help to have some shots of the turn you declare peace. If you have several hundred in the bank and your GPT at 0% is maybe 20 in the red, you probably have time to get another city under your belt. The pace of conquest in this game seemed a little slow, but it's unfair to judge when we can't see the tactical situation and your accounts the turn you make peace. Something you may look into in the future is simply accepting cease fires as opposed to peace treaties. Take a city and get a cease fire to delay the AI's counterattack, then get a turn or two of healing and reinforcements and go to war again without having to wait out the whole ten turns.

Hmmm, well, I don't really keep track of that stuff. But off-hand...

5-10 research turns per tech was pretty much bang-on for the entire game. I can't remember too many techs requiring more than 10 turns until I left Caste System behind. IIRC, even Education--one of the most expensive mid-game techs--clocked in at 8 turns, and I don't think I used a GS to help with that one.

I pretty much got all the science buildings in my core (Originally German and Persian) cities. The Mongol and Aztec cities did not get them, and I think that was an oversight caused by Caste System, which I don't usually run for very long. I'm used to going into the city screen, seeing that I can't assign any scientists (or more than two of them) and thinking, "right, this town needs a library!" (or an Observatory, University, et cetera). With Caste System letting me run unlimited scientists and so much city micromanagement to do (and the SE going pretty much gangbusters by then), I didn't realize most of those cities had no science buildings until far too late. Something to keep in mind for next time.

I had several turns of peace, as I recall, between the wars on my own continent. The intercontinental ones had very few intervening years. Caesar, if you'll recall, declared war within about 5 turns or less of the Aztec conquest, while I rounded on Hatty pretty quickly after I tied things up with him. (I have not tried Cease Fires before, I should give them a shot.) Again, in this regard I would say I found myself struggling against what I'm used to doing with a standard cottage economy, that is, rebuilding my economy for several turns between wars. That wasn't really necessary (or even optimal) in the SE, which is something I finally realized late in the game, hence my nonchalance about Caesar's war declaration, and my quickness at changing dancing partners from him to Hatty.

EDIT: re Doc EJ's post

As was noted earlier in this thread, changing to a cottage economy late in the game can be difficult. The biggest hurdle is that the cottages need time to mature, time they haven't had in the game prior to this, unlike in a standard cottage-based economy. Emancipation, therefore, will be an absolute requirement for your labour civic, and Free Speech will be needed as well. Even then, it will take time for the CE to really get into gear.

I think this is another reason why the SE lends itself to warmongering and domination or conquest wins. In this game, because of other civs adopting Emancipation and the resultant unhappiness in my civ (compounded by war weariness), I had to abandon the civics that were making my SE so strong: Caste System and Mercantilism. Going from Representation to Universal Suffrage for rush-buying as well meant that my research times for each tech quadrupled. If I'd been going for a Space Race win, this would have been disastrous. As it was, though, once I had the last couple of techs I needed to pursue domination, I was able to, for the most part, turn research off.

 

[pigswill]

Still haven't finished my shadow game. I was concentrating more on war-mongering than economy per se; few landmarks persians rip 700ad, mongols rip1200ad, aztecs rip 1812, started romewar 1820ad, by 1870 captured 6 of 10 roman cities so I'm on target for 1890-1900 domination victory. Despite my military focus and very poor play (specifically poor city placement leading to complete lack of specialisation and forgetting about GP production (never even built national epic)) I was still able to keep up tech wise with Sisiutils' specialist economy.

Couple of factors spring to mind. First: Col/CS slingshot leading to early bureaucracy. Second: tech-trading; I traded techs throughout the game whilst IIRC Sisiutil hardly traded at all after initial alphabet exchanges. This may imply that he followed same tech paths as AI which may well indicate that AIs go for specialist economy themselves.

If the specialist economy is superior then I would have expected Sisutil to have had a 5-7 point tech lead by 1700. The fact this didn't happen even though he played better indicates to me that cottage economy is generally superior.

Its difficult to keep track of research turns because I employed binary research throughout.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I play on Marathon setting, and I am converted to Specialist economies. I find that I don't play nice with others, and the extra research from specialists keeps my science from going into the tank when I get fed up and kick someone's butt.

 

[Sisiutil]

Couple of factors spring to mind. First: Col/CS slingshot leading to early bureaucracy. Second: tech-trading; I traded techs throughout the game whilst IIRC Sisiutil hardly traded at all after initial alphabet exchanges. This may imply that he followed same tech paths as AI which may well indicate that AIs go for specialist economy themselves.

Perhaps they do; that would explain the preponderance of farms versus cottages.

As for my tech trading, I forgot to mention in my post-game analysis that early Metal Casting was not quite the boon to tech trading that I thought it would be. At over 600 research points (normal game speed), none of the other civs really had techs--collectively or individually--that were anywhere near it. The lopsided trades they would have offered held little appeal.

If the specialist economy is superior then I would have expected Sisutil to have had a 5-7 point tech lead by 1700. The fact this didn't happen even though he played better indicates to me that cottage economy is generally superior.

Well, two things to mention there. First off, this was my first attempt at a SE, whereas, like me, you've played through the CE/CoL/CS strategy several times. So for the purposes of comparison, this game may not be up to muster. Then again, maybe it is. Read on.

Back to the previous point about tech trading: this may disprove your assertion. If I indeed tech traded very little, it means I was able to keep up with and surpass the AI largely on my own, whereas you may have had to tech trade a lot to keep up.

Just for comparison and reference, here are--to the best of my knowledge--all of my tech trades from this game:

550 BC: Writing to Montezuma for Fishing, Archery
125 AD: Code of Laws to Montezuma for Horseback Riding
125 AD: Priesthood, Pottery to Kublai for Monotheism
720 AD: Peace treaty to Cyrus for Theology
1340 AD: Guilds, Paper to Roosevelt for Engineering, Drama
1350 AD: Philosophy to Hatshepsut for Music

I think that's it, at least that's all the ones I noted in the thread: six trades for seven techs. I gave away a couple of techs, but as I didn't benefit from that in terms of technology, I didn't list them.

Any idea how your tech trading compares, Pigswill? Compared to some of my own games--the way I traded like crazy in the Qin game after a lot of warmongering to catch up, for example--this one saw very little trading indeed. In fact, by the time my really big warmongering phase began (the war with Kublai, which started in 1370 AD), I was done tech trading.

That, to me, seems to point to a certain superiority on the part of the specialist economy, even in my sloppy hands. Even while warring, I was able to surpass the AI in research; in a CE, that's very unusual.

 

[pigswill]

While I'd have to go back into turnlog for exact details I remember that I obtained guilds, banking, economics, rifling and military tradition and probably 8-10 others earlier on through trades. Its true that the AI benefitted as much as I did from these trades (tho I obviously didn't trade any military techs) but nonetheless trading enabled me to keep up mid-game despite your tech-rate advantage and late game my tech rate started to take off.

The point I was hoping to make is that research is not the only way to obtain technology; if you follow the same tech paths (albeit ahead of theAI) then you (actually they)have nothing to trade.

 

[Sisiutil]

While I'd have to go back into turnlog for exact details I remember that I obtained guilds, banking, economics, rifling and military tradition and probably 8-10 others earlier on through trades. Its true that the AI benefitted as much as I did from these trades (tho I obviously didn't trade any military techs) but nonetheless trading enabled me to keep up mid-game despite your tech-rate advantage and late game my tech rate started to take off.

The point I was hoping to make is that research is not the only way to obtain technology; if you follow the same tech paths (albeit ahead of theAI) then you (actually they)have nothing to trade.

True...then again, by not trading techs to the AI, you're denying it several advantages, thereby keeping them for yourself.

Now, one thing in this game that makes it problematic for comparison to the CE is that none of the competing AI civs were Financial. Not one. Granted, the AI doesn't run a CE very well, but my point here is that my substantial tech lead by mid-game may be partly attributable to the lack of a Financial AI civ competitor.

Just for further comparison, I went back to the two ALCs with Financial civs and dug up all their tech trades:

Qin game:

200 AD: Metal Casting to Huayna for Mathematics, Masonry, Sailing
500 AD: Machinery to Mansa for Currency, Calendar
1400 AD: Compass from Huayna (gift)
1670 AD: Peace to Huayna for Paper, Banking, Optics
1675 AD: Chemistry to Bismarck for Music, Philosophy
1700 AD: Steel to Asoka for Education, Astronomy
1705 AD: Steel to Bismarck for Liberalism, Economics
1705 AD: Steel to Mansa for Nationalism, Printing Press
1780 AD: Steel, Democracy to Victoria for Replaceable Parts, Scientific Method, Corporation
1812 AD: Communism to Victoria for Steam Power
1848 AD: Electricity, Communism to Asoka for Artillery, Combustion
1856 AD: Radio to Asoka for Assembly Line

Granted, the Qin game was unusual: a challenging start, for one thing, a Machinery slingshot that tied up research in the early game for a long time, and it was not, in my opinion, one of my best games (though I am kind of proud of how I tech traded to catch up and win!).

Victoria game:

400 AD: Code of Laws and Meditation to Washington for Iron Working, Archery, Sailing
1280 AD: Divine Right and Drama to Peter for Feudalism, Compass, Horseback Riding
1290 AD: Music to Qin for Optics
1610 AD: Education to Peter for Gunpowder
1800 AD: Rifling to Peter for Constitution
1800 AD: Liberalism, Military Tradition to Qin for Steam Power

That seems a little more typical in some respects: by mid and late game, the AI and I have pursued some different goals and corresponding tech paths and trade with one another to catch up. Then again, every game is unique. By 1800 in the Vicky game I had decided to go for a cultural win, hence my willingness to trade military techs. But in the Frederick game, only Roosevelt managed to get a tech up on me in the late game, and not for long.

I'm probably going to try a specialist economy again at some point, refine it, and see if it can really be used to leap ahead of the AI.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I think Alexander has to be about the worst leader possible for MC/P. Elizabeth's Financial means you can shave off a little on your research times but this isn't that much of a help, Alex doesn't even get this benefit. To get either of these leaders in on a reasonable schedule you have to use game settings that reduce tech prices or have a commerce tile.

For MC/P his techs put him at a disadvantage along with Frederick, and he doesn't get the 2nd city placement freedom that Frederick's Creative provides. I'm not sure how he can come in before 1000 BC without access to a commerce tile or popping something like Mysticism from a hut like you did with Frederick.

The one thing I wonder about is that Alex has two cheap hammer sinks, since the Aggressive trait makes the barracks cheap - therefore 30 more hammers to prebuild into both the Oracle and the forge. So you could land priesthood a little bit later, and still make the deadline. You probably still need a couple useful techs from the scout to get the math to add up correctly, though.

 

[Tennyson]

pigswill: The AI had *rifling* before you did? And you consider that superiority?

 

[Eqqman]

The one thing I wonder about is that Alex has two cheap hammer sinks, since the Aggressive trait makes the barracks cheap - therefore 30 more hammers to prebuild into both the Oracle and the forge. So you could land priesthood a little bit later, and still make the deadline. You probably still need a couple useful techs from the scout to get the math to add up correctly, though.

His problem isn't the production so much as the tech path. Not having Mining, Mysticism, Wheel, or Agriculture means he just has to research too much (if you care about the 1000 BC target). To compensate this by improved production means you'd have to be doing well enough to make Oracle in something like 5 turns after it's available. It might even be shorter than this, been a while since I ran Alex's numbers. Ellege got around this problem by playing on a small map which shortened the tech prices just enough to pull it off, but he also had to rely on scads of trees too in order to speed up production.

I'm not sure how the production bonus on Barracks will help exactly. Wouldn't you still only get ~30 hammers from overflow? I know there's supposed to be a way to finagle ~60 hammers from overflow on a whip but I'm not sure how that works exactly and I'm pretty sure I haven't done it. If it isn't hard to manage that would be indeed be huge for making Oracle and the Forge- maybe enough to turn Alex around.

 

[pigswill]

Tennyson; yes (I had infantry and CR grenadiers to upgrade and it put me one tech from artillery)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm not sure how the production bonus on Barracks will help exactly. Wouldn't you still only get ~30 hammers from overflow?

Yes. In the experiments that I had run (as Saladin, from a non-ideal position, perhaps), I never seemed to have enough hammers for both the obelisk and the barracks (I may have been rushing the Oracle, maybe I'll go back and review it), so I was only getting one pop of overflow. Maybe I was building an extra worker in the wrong place - I don't know.

I had also added the extra handicap of not prechopping (although I was timing the first chops to coincide with Metal Casting), which makes the timing after the Oracle very tight.

 

[pigswill]

1890 Domination. Score 41,854. (Augustus Ceaser)
Warming to the idea of oracle/metalworking/GE because even if you miss the pyramids you haven't lost anything; you could keep GE for Glib. If you were to make masonry last tech to research you'd have even more flexibility I think; maybe use GP for CoL before finishing masonry. Must look into this a bit more.

 

[pax]

First off, Pax, I was incorrect. I checked and found an auto-saved game with Caesar's loaded ships just off my coast. It is attached to this post, at the very bottom. I would be very interested to hear how things go if you let Rome's troops land and fight them off on your own territory. (The last round took a long time to finish and I'm too tapped out to try that myself.)

[...]

To be continued...

(As promised, Pax, here is the auto-save from when Caesar was about to invade Germany.)

Many thanks, Sisiutil. I didn't see this post until late Sunday night, and I might not get a chance to try out my theory until later in the week. I'll post when I get a chance.

By the way, speaking of micromanagement of units, have you looked at the Plot List Enhancement mod? In addition to doing nifty things like telling you what your units are doing in a stack (healing, fortifying, moving, etc.), it gives you several on-screen sort options. I use it on monster stacks to get rid of that awful scroll-to-the-right interface. You can even do sorts on what's healthy, who needs promotions, who can be upgraded, etc. Best of all, it's not a gameplay mod, it's all in the interface. (I use it as a part of the excellent Ruff's Cobbled SG Modpack, which, again, doesn't change gameplay but rather the interface.)

Thanks again for the save. Once I get a moment to play the save, I'll post the results. (I'm busy using Persia to take over a continent where I was the first to discover Railroads in 1940... bizarre!)

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Next up, as I said, is Alexander, but I won't start that game for awhile--next weekend at the earliest. After micro-managing all those Panzers, I need a break!

Maybe you could post the pregame thread now just to get some discussion going. That way, once you've recuperated you can just jump right in. You might also consider including the initial screenshot with the pregame discussion, though I suggest keeping the actual save to yourself in order avoid inadvertent spoilers from people that get too far along in shadow games.

 

[carl corey]

Nice game again Sisiutil. I've never tried a Specialist Economy myself, maybe it's time to do so...

By the way, you'll be glad to hear they fixed some of the problems with the huge stack interface in Warlords.

Instead of the "..." they start grouping them at then end.For example, you have four Trebuchets that would make the stack printing too long, they show as "Trebuchets (4) Promotion1 (x) Promotion2 (y)...". Sometimes you get this for the last unit too, which I think is a side-effect of the way it's been programmed, but the overall effect is good.

Also, when selected, a huge stack will result in a multi-line list where you can see all of your units. (ok, I haven't tested to see just how huge that list can get before they switch to something else )

We can only hope they will include this in a future patch for vanilla cIV.

 

[Fetch]

congrats on an excellent (and VERY informative) win. Using the SE with Alex would be very interesting indeed! It would also help me see how it's done a 2nd time and form in my mind some rules of thumb for when I try it. Congrats again on a strong win.

 

[Sisiutil]

congrats on an excellent (and VERY informative) win. Using the SE with Alex would be very interesting indeed! It would also help me see how it's done a 2nd time and form in my mind some rules of thumb for when I try it. Congrats again on a strong win.

Playing with these different strategies verified, for me at least, my decison to keep the settings the same despite some folks urging me to change them.

A change in ALC settings may still happen, but I like Prince as a level that has broad appeal. Prince seems high enough in difficulty to still entice comment from the Monarch and Emperor-level players, but low enough that the Noble-and-below players still find it relevant as well.

I have been concerned about the ALC games getting repetitive in some respects (as someone put it previously, how many times are we going to watch you take over your continent?). But if we can keep trying new and different strategies, tactics, and gambits in addition to highlighting each leader's unique characteristics, then I think the games can stay fresh.

I like Doc's idea for getting the pre-game thread going, so I've done that. You can find the thread HERE.