ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

[Nares]

Actually switching to a Cottage based economy is probably Not worth it... with Biology an SE is almost as good as a CE and a CE takes a long time to convert.

This is why i have ALWAYS been against switching from SE to CE -

People say the reason to switch is that a CE becomes more powerful then a SE in the later game - But people don't say WHY a CE becomes more powerful.

The answer - Towns. Towns get all the bonuses of printing press, free speech, ect.

Sure - if we can harness the Town CE after running an SE, i'd say go for it! Except we can't - It takes over HALF the game for towns to really come into their own! Think about it - if you swich to cottages, your cottages will have to take EXACTLY as many turns to go to towns, and by that time not only is your econ crushed from running less specialists, the game is pretty much over time wise - meanwhile the AI have probably almost launched the ship!

Well, Betafor pretty much sums up the argument for switching to a CE base by highlighting the benefits of towns. Printing Press and Free Speech are by far the most important aspects of this. Added to that are the benefits of Emancipation. 200% Cottage development speed is very powerful; that when Emancipation is run by other leaders causes war weariness for civs not running Emancipation, and can be cured by running it yourself, is merely a side effect.

With Biology in, you are presented with two choices. Either to reduce your new level of food production to maintain the current population levels, via maintaining Cottages, or to run utilize the increased food production in order to run more specialists, via Farms. Whether the tiles are riverside is moot, at this point.

There was a parallel argument regarding Slavery versus Caste System earlier in the thread. UncleJJ made a argument for running Slavery in order to put more infrastructure in place, utilizing the high food setup; this is a case that I believe futurehermit would support, as part of the discussions which spurred the SE in this game called for a high food setup to both rely primarily upon specialists for an economy and to more effectively run Slavery.

The key techs here are Printing Press, Liberalism (Free Speech), Biology, and (correct me if I'm wrong) Democracy (Emancipation/Universal Sufferage).

There's no question that Towns are superior to specialists later in the game, even though Biology significantly increases your ability to run specialists, and you can run more specialists without Caste System as a result of buildings associated to late game techs. However, one of the major attractions of a SE, namely the Great Person production, becomes hampered in the mid-late game. The Parthenon becomes obsolete. Philosophy becomes too costly to run. Great Person costs become too high to produce them anywhere except in a GP farm, with the odd chance for one or two to pop outside of the GP farm, but then only if you plan carefully for them.

It's really the totallity of techs that make the conversion possible and worthwhile. Printing Press and Liberalism (Free Speech) make Towns more potent than specialists under Representation. Post-Biology Towns produce the same amount of food as pre-Biology Farms, excluding food resources, so the number of specialists you were running can remain constant until your Cottages have matured through to Towns (and even then, you can continue running the specialists). Emancipation drastically increases your Cottage->Town growth.

That your food production remains constant as you switch Farms into Cottages is really a key factor. You do not need to sacrifice specialists, or even lose valuable beakers/gold in growing your Cottages. You do not need to switch out of Representation until you have a sufficient number of Towns versus specialists to gain more from the Towns than the specialists.

No less, by maintaining a specialists based economy post-Biology, you are essentially forcing yourself into running Caste System in order to maintain worthwhile levels of any one particular type of specialist. I believe that is only a necessity if running Artists, as they are otherwise scarce, but in the cases of Scientists and Merchants, Towns can better fulfill the necessary role by producing a higher, if less specific, output of beakers and/or gold.

Caste System comes at the cost of Emancipation, which you could otherwise use to increase unhappiness within the cities of enemy leaders, or use it to decrease the unhappiness in your own towns. Additionally, the gap comes at a time when you do not yet have access to other key techs which facilitate massive population booms, such as the modern happiness or health resources.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Also I wouldn't switch Back from US. Once you go there, you are giving up science for Production... I would make that permanent. It is then end game, and your science super city will still be producing a lot even without Representation

As for Emancipation, looiking at your city populations, you probably have many specialists that Could be working terrain.
What you could do is Research up to Communism then convert to US, Emancipation, and State Property, and start most of your cities focusing on production instead of science (working land, converting Excess Farms to Windmills/Workshops)... Your science would plunge, but the fact that you have a lot of high population cities would allow you to get some solid production (and the SoL would end up providing a nice amount of Science specialists)

Frankfurt would still want lots of scientists, but it can support 6 of them without caste system... the excess Farms could be converted to Workshops, and it could Build Research
1 Tile can either make
2 Food=3 Flasks with a non Representative Scientist
OR
3 Production =1.5 Flasks by Building Research... not the best, but once you are at max research not too bad.

If you assume that you are putting a halt to your Research, and going for all out production (perfectly reasonable once you have Communism and Radio) then losing Caste System is OK, because instead of research you want production. (and the Happiness is a bonus)

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

No less, by maintaining a specialists based economy post-Biology, you are essentially forcing yourself into running Caste System in order to maintain worthwhile levels of any one particular type of specialist.

After watching this game, I'm starting to think that this is one of the more significant and least discussed reasons for switching to a cottage economy in the late game. It's not just Caste System. You're also forced to stick with Representation. Mercantilism might not be an absolute necessity, but that free specialist is certainly a big sacrifice if you switch out for State Property.

All this adds up to a real lack of flexibility with your civics. Space Race seems out of the question to me without switching. Space Race without Universal Suffrage, Emancipation (if only for the happiness), and State Property would be really tough. Really any late game strategy is very tightly constrained by the civics choices that are imposed by the specialist economy.

 

[Nares]

Really any late game strategy is very tightly constrained by the civics choices that are imposed by the specialist economy.

I won't say that a CE doesn't present its own set of restricted civic choices. However, the CE related civic choices are designed to be largely superior to SE related civic choices. In particular, Emancipation, but also the other UN mandated civics. The game is designed to promote a CE end-game, and it really only comes into its own during the Industrial era, when a switch from a The Pyramids based SE to a civic based CE is viable.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well a Cottage economy also has a real lack of flexibility in Civics, It requires Emancipation (which is only a happiness benefit otherwise) US (to get production) and Free Speech (giving up the exp of Vassalage, or the Happiness+Cheapness bonus of Nationhood)

The fact is at this point, for a Domination win (just like for a Cultural or UN Win... or even a Space Race Win) he needs to get a few more techs then turn the Economy around to something different. For Space Race and Domination, the Economy needs to start Focusing on production... and the SE is Perfect for this. (in Space Race there are only a few turns of production after the research is done, but in Domination, there is a wave of production, and only a few more techs needed, Industrialism, Radio, Flight and Communism are what you need to pull off a Domination... unless you're Hatty)

 

[Sisiutil]

Good guidance from the ALC All-Stars once again.

And what I really like is that rather than JUST doing the usual end-game push for victory, we'll now be seeing if I can pull off a transition in my economy and civics.

I don't see myself completely converting to a CE. Instead, it looks like I'll be hitting the brakes on research by changing civics, once I have the last few techs I need. I have Industrialism, Flight is almost done, then it's Communism and Radio, probably in that order. (My thinking here is to start and finish the Kremlin before starting on the Eiffel Tower and R&R.)

It makes sense to stick with the existing civics a little longer. In the absence of any more offensives from Caesar, the WW should decrease a little while I get my transports ready and finish off the last few techs. I also have a lot of room with the culture slider, which is only at 10% right now while I'm almost 500 gpt in the black.

I think the goal here should be to try to manage the trasition as smoothly as possible. I also don't see why I shouldn't be able to maintain some level of research. Artillery would be nice to have, even if it takes a few turns longer to get it. As I mentioned above, with all that gold coming in and a huge stockpile stored away, finally moving the science slider is also a possibility. I'm not a purist, I just want to win the game!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I also got, against all odds, a Great Engineer! (I also got a Great Merchant, who settled in Berlin, and a couple of GS.) I sent the GE to the former Mongol city of Karakorum, where the Ironworks was approaching completion. I didn't use him for the Ironworks, though. Once I finished researching Assembly Line, I had a much better use for him...That took the Pentagon down to 5 turns from 13, IIRC

Question: were you going to be happy if your GE investment netted you gold, instead of the wonder?

It probably didn't matter. You are probably far enough ahead that the AI isn't going to beat you to the finish. But still, Great Engineers should be finishing world wonders. Not starting them. Sloppy.

Glossary:

Sloppy - burning a GE at the wrong part of the build cycle when it doesn't matter.
Careless - burning a GE at the wrong part of the build cycle when it does matter, but you don't get punished for it
Unlucky - burning a GE at the wrong part of the build cycle when the AI beats you to the wonder

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The WORST thing to rush with a GE is to FINISH a WW

Finishing a WW with a GE means the GE gives more Hammers than you will use

The number of Hammers a GE gives is the LESSER of
1. A Fixed amount of Hammers based on city population
2. The amount of Hammers needed to finish the Wonder

If a GE is Finishing a Wonder that means he is being used beneath his maximum potential (#1 is the maximum potential)

Now if there is a chance it will get you Gold, then yes it would be a waste... but that is assuming the AI is close enough to do that.

 

[Oralelk]

I'm not a purist, I just want to win the game!

Well, in that case -- what's wrong with your original plan of shutting down research right now, churning out panzers, and wiping the floor with Caesar's obsolete units? A panzer is strength 28, a maceman in a 100% defence city is 16, so it seems you wouldn't even need siege units for an effective campaign. And you do have a lot of room on the culture slider for managing unhappiness.



Or am I missing something? Except that switching to CE at this point is an interesting experiment?

By the way, just a little nit to pick: Nietzsche is spelled Nietzsche, and Schubert is technically speaking from modern-day Austria (just like Mozart), although Vienna was indeed part of the Holy Roman Empire (i.e. proto-Germany) at the time.

 

[Phrederick]

The WORST thing to rush with a GE is to FINISH a WW

If a GE is Finishing a Wonder that means he is being used beneath his maximum potential (#1 is the maximum potential)

The best way to use a GE on a wonder is to start the wonder, and every turn check how many hammers are needed before it is finished. When that number is within one turn's production of the number of hammers the GE will give, use the GE. That way, no hammers are wasted, and you don't have the possibility of losing the wonder.

 

[Betafor]

Ok - here's my beef about CE vs SE in the late game -

CE - takes time to get up to speed. A lot of time, so much that the SE is dominant through the renasaince. In the endgame, that amount of time is costly, and kills your research. All in all - the transition takes so long that you lose your tech lead, and by that time the game is almost over, so the towns you now have will help you getting things like fiber optics and future tech - Whereas if you would have expanded your SE, you would have kept a STILL not too shabby tech rate, at the time where it matters, assuming you're not going for space race.

HOWEVER - there is ONE exception to this rule - and ALC #7 has shown it beautifully. The above is ALWAYS true - when talking about using cottages for science. BUT as we have already discussed - we're shutting down tech after communism/radio to focus on producion. We are switching to universal sufferage. Universal sufferage allows gold buying of units. The specialists left over after the switch produce tech and GS points, none of which we need. Turning farms into cottages produces gold.

If you don't get what i'm trying to say by now I think you're playing too much of an intellectual game - try Halo2.(joke, no flamies!)

Yep - since tech is near moot - switch to cottages econ, but KEEP THE SLIDER AT 0! When you stop tech, go to US emancipation, the extra pop can work hammer tiles and cottages - (with state property it's better to have brand new workshops then brand new cottages in cities that dont have wealth buildings, and vica versa) With workshops in production cities, and cottages in market/bank/grocer cities, + US + Kremlin, you'll have an army in no time!

Now YOU TOO can have this once in a lifetime offer by calling the number you see below!

EDIT - On the issue of GE - in ranked order the best things to do - and of course, the list is also from most micromanaged to least - so it has a lot to do with your playstyle and how much you pay attn to things

1)Check how much hammers teh GE will give you - now check how many hammers you are producing per turn. When you have the amount of hammers left in the wonder that is less than those combined, but more then just the GE hammers, use teh GE

2)Use the GE ASAP

3) Use the GE with less then the max hammers the GE will give you still left in the box because there is no overflow

 

[NaZdReG]

Why all the debate??

you obviously have military advantage both in #'s and tech advantage. yeah war wearinesss will be an issue, switch your civics around so it isnt. finish up your research if you must, but why not just go steamroll caeser and then wipe out egypt if you have the same tech advantage. if that doesnt give you dom win then I guess you could just heal up your stacks and go on a rampage until they all die or your culture borders expand enough to get the dom win

theres the devil's advocate warmonger input for ya.

looking forward to the endgame

NaZ

 

[UncleJJ]

The easiest way to get rid of war weariness will be to invade Ceasar and take one of his coastal cities next to Hatty (Arretium looks good) and then make peace to allow war weariness to fall. When the city comes out of revolt build an airport there maybe using US. By that time you can also have built several airports on the home continent to feed units, missionaries and whatever is needed without slow naval transport. Use the naval transports to work down Hatty's coast faster than you can move through her cultural zone on land. A few aircraft carriers would help with spotting and attacking targets.

You can attack Hatty for a large amount of the extra area needed for domination and you will start with no war weariness against her. Then when shes badly battered and you have cleared enough area to relieve the cultural problems from several cities maybe make peace with Hatty and switch back to Ceasar to get enough cities for the area needed. You might have to turn the culture slider up a lot against Ceasar (maybe 40% or 60%) to combat WW but that will help with expanding the cultural borders on the captured cities and will speed the victory.

This should be a cake walk given your tech lead and military advantage. It's a chance for a real Blitzkrieg using panzers and planes

 

[pax]

Hi,

Long-time reader, first time poster in the ALC threads.

I was thinking about Julius' invasion force. By the numbers, he sent what, 17 galleons, all fully loaded, right? That's 51 land units. The first thought I had was that you missed out on the opportunity to acquire 51 XP. Yes, it might have been tedious and required a bit of micromanagement, but consider what you could do with that spread across a few deserving units. Want to promote those Macemen (if there are any left) to CR III? Done. Maybe pick up combat three or four a few places... or even get your tanks to CRIII.

Then, reading about the war weariness that resulted, I realized another benefit of allowing the invasion force to land (and be destroyed): no war weariness for units. Units that you kill in your own cultural territory do not cause war weariness. Thank Krikkitone for his breakdown on this info:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4377870&postcount=17
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4377870&postcount=18
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4377870&postcount=19

I admit, it would feel like taking advantage of the AI, but you could easily channel them all to a specific landing spot and then obliterate them at your leisure.

No war weariness, 51 XP for land-based units, the already-acquired 38 XP for ocean-based units (maybe promote those transports to go a little farther each turn?) all in exchange for maybe some light pillaging, at the worst. In a game where many moves have been counter-intuitive, this may take the cake. I may pick up the save after Caesar declares just to play out this possibility.

All that said, these ALC games have been a source of amusement and education... thanks so much!

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

51 XP for land-based units

Note that this is a minimum. All battle victories give at least 1 XP. Many give more, depending on the odds. Of course, what this ignores is combat losses. You're not going to fight 51 land battles with no losses, especially if many of your attackers have non-optimal promotions like city raider. Even with help from collateral damage, you'll take some casualties. Still, you make a good point. Even if you didn't let all 51 units through, it might have been an interesting idea to let the occasional landing party survive.

 

[Eqqman]

Transports have an attack strength of 16.

Holy crud. Who knew? Well, several people, probably, but not me, until now! I immediately divvied up the work: Destroyers get Frigates, Transports get Galleons. It seemed fitting. And highly effective:

Here's the saved game. Thoughts?

Heh I still remember the first time I made that discovery. It's not just that they have a decent attack value against older-era ships, but that they can attack at all. If memory serves me correctly, you could not attack at all with Transports in Civ I/II, they only had defense. So I had a mental block in place of thinking they could defend only. As you've discovered they make great raiders when you need to scour the seas looking for Frigates and Galleons.

You can probably switch out of Caste System safely at this point. You should have enough buildings in place that you can still run all the specialists you need. Science cities in particular should have enough science buildings now to give you slots for ~6 scientists alone (more in the Oxford city). You'll lose some science and the ability to be particular about what Great People you get but this is where representation kicks in to help keep you afloat. -4/-5 emancipation unhappiness sounds like you should certainly deal with it.

You may be better off not buying more ships. With one of Caesar's cities giving you a toehold, I would make a brief switch to sufferage/slavery to get an Airport in there as fast as you can. Then rely on airlifts to pack that city with combat troops to break out into Hatshepsut's lands in tandem with whatever navy you have.

I see NO reason to leave the SE unless you want to keep teching past Radio or Mass Media.

All battle victories give at least 1 XP

It's possible to win and get NO xp.

 

[Sisiutil]

Pax, your point is well-taken. With the discussion surrounding WW revealing how it develops (and how to reduce/avoid it), it had occurred to me that I could let the units land and mop them up, though I have to admit I had not considered the benefit of all those XPs as well (though my Destroyers and Transports certainly earned several of those). I think I have a natural aversion to allowing an invading force to land, and I also thought that fighting those units on land would delay an invasion of the other continent even further, especially since all my veterans would have to take several turns to heal. And many people say that navies are useless in Civ IV, so I derive some pleasure when I get some use out of them. In the future, though, in a similar situation, I think we should all keep your idea in mind: bonus XPs and no WW. Very appealing.

VoU, I should have mentioned that I did check what the GE would give me, and it worked just about perfectly--after the GE, the Pentagon completed in 2 turns. Waiting a turn would have given me an unusable overflow, IIRC. So, not as sloppy as you think. But your point is a valid one and started a very worthwhile discussion on how to best use a GE.

There is an additional reason for keeping some research going: several of my cities are growing to such a size that health is becoming a problem, and they already have all the available health-improving buildings (aqueduct, grocer, granary, harbour where applicable). So after I finished the techs we mentioned and changed civics, I would like to research Medicine so I can build hospitals where they're needed.

Oralelk: I sent a Destroyer to snoop around Rome's coast towards the end of the previous round. Caesar has Grenadiers and Riflemen now. Seige weapons will be required. Fortunately, I have nearly two dozen of them.

UncleJJ, thank you for the reminder to use the transports to ferry troops around more quickly than they can move over land. I think I may split the transports up and hit Caesar along his coast in several locations at the same time.

I get the feeling that the next round will be the last one, unless something strange happens. I'll probably play it tonight and post it tomorrow.

 

[Eqqman]

The WORST thing to rush with a GE is to FINISH a WW

Finishing a WW with a GE means the GE gives more Hammers than you will use

The number of Hammers a GE gives is the LESSER of
1. A Fixed amount of Hammers based on city population
2. The amount of Hammers needed to finish the Wonder

If a GE is Finishing a Wonder that means he is being used beneath his maximum potential (#1 is the maximum potential)

Now if there is a chance it will get you Gold, then yes it would be a waste... but that is assuming the AI is close enough to do that.

If the GE is not completing a Wonder entirely by himself, you will see exactly how many hammers he will contribute. So you wait until using the GE + natural production will finish the Wonder in 1 turn. This takes the risk of losing those hammers to gold to the lowest you can get it. Not that I've ever been this clever in an actual game , but I'm fairly certain this is what VoU is getting at, as obviously allowing GE overflow is a waste.

 

[Oralelk]

Caesar has Grenadiers and Riflemen now.

Oh! My bad. I could actually have seen on your 1852 screenshot that he had Chemistry (even Scientific Method) and Rifling. I wonder why he only sent his obsolete units in the invasion force?

No matter. Go roll over thim!

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

It's possible to win and get NO xp.

Against a non-barbarian? I've certainly never seen it, and I was under the impression that even the most lopsided combat (ex. healthy city raider 3 tank vs. almost dead archer) would give you at least 1. Experience vs. animals is capped at 5 and vs. barbarians at 10.