ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

[Eqqman]

A GE on Taj Mahal? *grumbles*

At least you'll have plenty of money to make with the City Raider III Grenadiers. Something you might want to try, is reload your 4000 BC save and refound Berlin. Then go to the victory screen and divide your land percentage by 9. This will give you an idea how many percentage points each tile is worth, which can affect your battle plan. If you only need to get a few cities on the other continent, then you'll be able to attack anybody you like.

If you're looking to avoid a lengthy war, you might give Hatshepsut a try. It looks like nearly all of her cities are coastal, so you could virtually eliminate her on the first round of the war. The downside is you'll probably have to start stockpiling the ships for this immediately. Roosevelt offers access with a smaller inital invasion force, but he may not have the land area to give you a win without having to attack somebody else anyway.

What would you say your average tech rate is at this stage? It looks like you had 5 turns for Printing Press, which is good. Has that been typical?

 

[Phrederick]

One thing that I have heard mentioned in threads on specialist economies, is that because it loses some advantages to cottages in the later games, it can be worth it to transition to a cottage-based economy. Beshbalik and Karakorum both seem like they could be configured for max tile-based commerce, which could either provide more wealth for further expansion, or ease the transition in upping the slider on research. Perhaps use wealth in those two cities to finance the expansion through the Aztec lands, and then transition to cottages? People with more specialist economy experience might be able to provide more focused advice.

 

[Sisiutil]

A good point to raise, Phrederick. Several people have been cautioning me that even with several science cities, Caste System, Statue of Liberty, etc, the SE still begins to peter out in the modern era. Do the experienced SE fans make a transition to cottages in the late game or dance with the lady whut brung yuh?

As for the GE on TM...I hear ya, but remember that I DO have copper (for the SoL) but I DO NOT have marble and won't until I take out Monty. And look at all that GPT!



I feel like Scrooge McDuck, but without the lack of pants. Ahem.

Seriously, with gunpowder units right around the corner, that gold is going to finance a round of upgrades that will clean Monty off the map in record time.

 

[Phrederick]

I'd caution you against blowing ALL the money on unit upgrades; you might need some of it to run a deficit while absorbing the Aztec homelands. I don't have civ4 available right now (living vicariously through games like these!), so I don't really know exactly how strong your economy is and how much of a hit that added maintenance will be.

 

[Eqqman]

A good point to raise, Phrederick. Several people have been cautioning me that even with several science cities, Caste System, Statue of Liberty, etc, the SE still begins to peter out in the modern era.

This is one of those things we want you to find out . The level of 'petering' is going to be almost entirely related to the amount of cities you control and how many settled GSs you can squeeze into Frankfurt. With the entire continent under your iron fist- er, velvet glove, I think you'll be more than satisfied with the tech rate. If memory serves me correctly Futurehermit's numbers keep up the 1 tech/5 turns pace well through the modern era provided you have 6 specialists you feed yourself in the Oxford city + at least 5 settled GSs, and 6 other cities running at least two specialists that you feed yourself (so 4, with the free ones). All of these cities are required to have every possible science multiplier, which is now Library + University + Observatory. In the modern era this also includes Research Labs, so this means your next beeline after Democracy would be Computers. Grenadiers and Cannons should be more than adequate to finish off this continent and probably win the game for you, if not you may make a pit stop at Rifles or Artillery. Computers normally come rather late but you can get them surprising early if you're willing to skip plenty of other techs you would usually be going after. Once you have Statue of Liberty and control over most if not all of your continent you can gauge your tech rate and decide if you'll need the extra help from Computers or not. How many settled scientists are now in Frankfurt? If you're not up to 5-6 (excluding GL) I would stay on Pacifism until you get that many. The sure-fire fix to avoid a falling tech rate is to win! Part of the advantage we're trying to get from the specialist economy is to be able to win quickly enough that things don't have a chance to fall apart late-game.

Seriously, with gunpowder units right around the corner, that gold is going to finance a round of upgrades that will clean Monty off the map in record time.

Here's hoping!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

As for the Specialist economy Petering out... it depends how Specialist it is, The problem is in the Modern Age, it gets hard for one city (even on Oxford stuffed city) to produce that much science.


So options
1. Domination, minimal tech needed, so current levels are fine, just get the Ren group Gun->Chem->Steel and Cavalry and Riflemen. Just build up a lot, and improve your Gold cities (Shrines, Capitals, etc.)

2 Space Race, for a SE the key thing here is you need to get a few cities that really use that Caste System. Have the 'backup science cities' running 4 Scientists, and make sure you get Biology so they can run 6-8. Besides the raw science, this will have a chance of getting one or two additional GSs that can go to Frankfurt. Add on to that the fact that Every city will be getting at least 6 science from two Specialists (with SoL+Merc) and possibly 12 Science if they pick two Scientists... and you should be able to keep going, at a good pace.

 

[ArmoredCavalry]

It seems to me that a diplomatic victory seems possible here too, seeing as Rosevelt and hatty may be on your side vs ceaser. and of course you could put a SS victory as a fail-safe.

Just another path to follow, though I doubt it would yield as high a score as other victories.

 

[Eqqman]

It seems to me that a diplomatic victory seems possible here too, seeing as Rosevelt and hatty may be on your side vs ceaser. and of course you could put a SS victory as a fail-safe.

I was just starting to think about that myself. With a beeline to Mass Media instead of Computers it may be faster to go for the diplomatic victory rather than try to force a toehold on the second continent. Take the starting continent, get to Mass Media, then yank the specialists to focus on farms + growth to crank out the votes. Even better would be to get a war started over there in the turns just before the vote is called to get them soured on Ceaesar and pick up some mutual struggle brownie points. Send troops over to gift them to Roosevelt and let him pick up the tab. If none of the other ALC games have been won via diplomacy it might be fun to try.

 

[Sisiutil]

I was truly awed and inspired by Aelf's mastery of the diplomatic game in his Emperor's Challenge, so this has a certain appeal. But let me get the SoL built and Kublai and Monty well and properly gone before we make our final decision.

 

[pigswill]

Financial/Demographic Comparision 1530ad

Sisutil's Farm: 408 beakers, 348 gold, 190 expenses, 12 cities, 224 hammers, 9477k pop, 434k soldiers. Techs: banking, nationalism, constitution.

Pisgwill's Cottage: 389 beakers, 223 gold, 196 expenses, 16 cities, 182 hammers, 11094k pop, 384k soliders. Techs: gunpowder, chemistry.

Figures slightly distorted by Sisutil's Golden Age.

 

[cabert]

Financial/Demographic Comparision 1530ad

Sisutil's Farm: 408 beakers, 348 gold, 190 expenses, 12 cities, 224 hammers, 9477k pop, 434k soldiers. Techs: banking, nationalism, constitution.

Pisgwill's Cottage: 389 beakers, 223 gold, 196 expenses, 16 cities, 182 hammers, 11094k pop, 384k soliders. Techs: gunpowder, chemistry.

Figures slightly distorted by Sisutil's Golden Age.

i like the "slightly"

i tried myself a SE at emperor level, and it earned me a very large tech lead (yes, at emperor level) with only a handful cities. The tech city had some 500 beakers/turn!

The good thing about your game is you are in shape in terms of power (not leading, though, but i think cesar's power comes from population, not units).
Go for domination.
Your target is cesar : lots of land, unfriendly, powerful.
If you attack hatty or america, you'll face cesar anyway (at least, that's a possibility).
If you attack cesar, egypt and america won't help him.

 

[William III]

I agree with Cabert: Pick the largest enemy. You can outsmart every AI Firaxis can throw at you, and you are quite mighty. If you attack FDR or Hatty, they may bribe Gaius Julius against you; But have you ever seen someone bribing FDR or Hatsheput to war against someone else? Besides, when you take on this Populare first, nobody is going to stop you, and you'll be able to crush Hatsheput and Franklin Delano in no time. Perhaps conquest would be even better; the distance maintenance for the Roman cities would be large anyways, and you could crush anyone beneath your German boots, because you would have no need for consolidation etc. 'Ein-zwei, ein-zwei...' You know what I mean.

William III

 

[aelf]

Thanks, Sisiutil! But don't forget to be a Machiavel. Realpolitik is important in politics, and in Civ that means winning by any method most practical

 

[Sisiutil]

Thanks, Sisiutil! But don't forget to be a Machiavel. Realpolitik is important in politics, and in Civ that means winning by any method most practical

Ah, so NOW you finally reveal your inspiration! Suddenly your diplomatic manipulations in the EC game make so much sense.

Yes, I've been accused in the past of simply trying to become the biggest, baddest kid on the block and not paying enough attention to who I tick off. I'm trying to get better, I really am.

To that end, a civics change from Theocracy is in order soon. But to what? This is a tough choice. On the one hand, diplomatically, Free Religion will help a lot; especially, I think, with Hatty. The +10% research bonus will also help offset the increasing cost of techs as time marches on. But I'll soon lose my two free scientists in Frankfurt, and Pacifism's +100% GP production is mighty tempting to compensate by giving me more GS to settle there. Hmmm...

 

[Phrederick]

Since I can't load the save game, I can't really analyze which one would be better. However, since not every city is producing significant research, I'd lean towards Pacificism. Here's how I would approach it:

Since two scientists give 12 beakers under Representation, you get approximately 1 additional beaker per two scientists in a city under FR. How many cities are running two scientists? Four? Add up all those beakers you would gain under FR. Then, analyze how effective the increased happiness would be.

Then, determine how many turns until your next Great Person, under both FR and Pacifism. A settled GS provides 6 beakers, 9 with Representation, right? Library/University/Oxford provide +50/+50/+100%, or +200%, right? That means that for every extra turn with a settled GS that Pacifism gives you, you get 27 beakers.

Under FR, with Mercantilism, you can probably run two scientists in all but one or two cities, and four in two cities, then 6 in your great science city. That's probably a bit high, but I can't check the actual save. With 12 cities, that adds up to FR giving you +10 for the first pair of scientists, +2 more for the two cities with four scientists, and +2 more in the GSS. That adds up to +14, give or take 4.

Now say that it will take x turns until a GS under Pacifism, and y additional turns until a GS under FR. 14 * (x + y) is the benefit under FR, and 27 * y is the benefit under pacifism. Whichever number is larger will give you more beakers until that point. After you pop a GS, you would want to run the calculations again.

Intangibles: FR will provide a boost in relations with the other continent, and more happiness. Pacifism will boost unit maintenances, but will also provide more GPP to cities other than just whichever city pops a great person first. If the first great person to pop isn't a GS, then you will get zero additional beakers.

Since you're about to kill everyone who follows your religion, FR gives a nice diplo boost. However, Pacifism will almost certainly provide more beakers. I think my final decision would come down to whether or not you have enough money to pay the increased military upkeep, given that you plan to continue warring.

 

[cabert]

for a philo leader, with national epic built, pacifism is only +33% GPP in the GP farm, and +50% elsewhere.
Free religion is better.
Do you really need to change?

 

[Eqqman]

Do you really need to change?

I think this is one of those questions we just can't answer without doing the math. I'm concerned that maybe too much time has been spent in theocracy and not enough in pacifism already. If there are less than 6 settled scientists in Frankfurt and he's close to getting a new one anyway, then it might be worth it to go into pacifism long enough to pop it out and then go to free religion. Free religion provides far less bonus than it would otherwise since we're not making beakers from commerce.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Wow. I just noticed that your world is essentially divided into two state religions, the coolest part being that nobody from the other continent should really care whether you take out any of your neighbors.

It always seems to be one of the early three Religions when you play continents. This is making me wonder if razing the early holy cities developed by nearby enemies can help one of the later four religions to dominate.

I can't tell from the posts whether you decided on a victory condition...
- Diplomatic, my favorite. It looks like you could open borders with Roosevelt and convert his empire with a missionary spam, get him on your side and have some extra diplo votes, once you deal with your not so friendly neigbors. Actually, building the UN and pushing up the pop on your continent may push you over without help, a do-it-yourself diplo victory.
- Domination is probably the easiest since your aim is to make this continent yours. You are most of the way there at that point.
- Conquest? I have never tried that one. I like to keep enemy cities, which always made domination a closer choice.
- Space race? That one is fun if it is close, i.e. a real race.
I didn't check to see which victories you pursued in prior ALCs. Were you planning on trying a new one?

 

[Cabledawg]

Hilarious Spoiler

Spoiler :

I played the game from the last save. I took out Kublai easily. Someone had said that Space was out and that Domination was the only way. As I looked through the cities, I knew this was a way too easy win. I wouldnt have to war with anyone else. I could leave Monty alone and cruise. Look at all that science. I messed around with some tiles and grew the towns fast heading to SOL, then Biology.
Alot of the cities didnt have forges. If Im not at war, Ill allways build forges, factories and power asap. Anyway, this game was so easy, I built every late game wonder. If you name a wonder, I built it. In reassigning those tiles and growing the cities to size 20 to 25...I was teching the late ones in 3 turns. It wasnt even close, I was allways 7 or 8 techs ahead...and I never traded 1 tech. I launched in 1946. I would have launched earlier, but Caesar decided to war with me. Specialist Economy works throughout the game. I took specialist away in some cities and made 3 production monsters and 2 Cash monsters. Whenever I got a GS I would find a city that had the highest science , but didnt have an academy and burn the GS on the academy.....boom, an extra 30 beakers.
Heres the funny part. Im cruising along building space junk when he declares...Im like WTH. I had been upgrading units, but I was initially worried when i saw his invasion force. It was about 9 Frigates, 10 Galleons with 40 units consisting of Cavalry and Musketmen and Catapults. At that time I had Tanks and Mechs. How would an AI not stop his landing once he saw that? Anyway he landed them and I promoted alot of units. I had been sending my subs around and my subs followed his fleet all the back and killed them along the way...he lost them all. All I could think about was that he didnt have sub or destroyer technology...so its like his fleet is heading back and they keep losing units for no reason. It was funny at the time.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

- Diplomatic, my favorite. It looks like you could open borders with Roosevelt and convert his empire with a missionary spam, get him on your side and have some extra diplo votes, once you deal with your not so friendly neigbors. Actually, building the UN and pushing up the pop on your continent may push you over without help, a do-it-yourself diplo victory.

Diplomatic probably is achievable, but IMHO it's cheesy. A diplomatic win should be about diplomacy -- trade, religion, helping out your bloc in wars, etc. This game hasn't had any real diplomacy at all, unless you count choosing Montezuma's religion and hoping that he decides to like you for it.

A diplomatic win can be fun. In fact, it's one of my favorite conditions to go for, but you need to actually go for it. This game would be a case of going for domination and then stopping when you're 90% finished to build the UN and vote yourself to a cheap diplomatic victory.