ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Fair trade bonus gives you +4 max and supplying resources bonus gives +2 max. +6 alone, on top of peace and open borders, is almost never enough.

I was using trade as examples. My point was simply that if you only care about one ally, it's easy to get all the bonuses. Switch to their favorite civic, sign a defensive pact, adopt their state religion, bribe them to get involved in a war for mutual enemy points, etc. If you only want one ally, then you don't care who you piss off to get there. That makes it easy. The challenge is trying to put together a coalition.

How do you plan to go for diplomatic from the start? That is just absurd and rearely ever works. Planned diplomacy is a paradox and the concept fails to take into account the changing situation in international relations. What if your longtime AI founds a late religion and switches to it? What if a rift appears between your allies? What if your planned ally becomes friendly to someone who is constantly threatening you?

In the beginning, it's mostly about not making people hate you until you can figure out who you need as a friend. Maybe you don't adopt a state religion. Maybe you build up a more decisive military advantage before declaring war and then press the conflict beyond where you normally would, in order to avoid multiple "You declared war on our friend" penalties. Maybe you try harder to found religions yourself to avoid having one of your allies switch state religions. Maybe you prioritize Optics so you can find the other continent(s) before it's too late to make a difference. Maybe you spread your religion to the other continent more aggressively and earlier in order to create a rift between two otherwise friendly AI's.

There are lots of ways you can focus on diplomacy early. Just like aiming toward space race, cultural, or any other victory type, it might not always work. You need to be ready to adapt, but there's no reason that you can't or shouldn't keep diplomacy in mind from the first turn if that's how you intend to win.

 

[aelf]

I was using trade as examples. My point was simply that if you only care about one ally, it's easy to get all the bonuses. Switch to their favorite civic, sign a defensive pact, adopt their state religion, bribe them to get involved in a war for mutual enemy points, etc. If you only want one ally, then you don't care who you piss off to get there. That makes it easy.

In theory that is right. My point was that in practice, it's not so simple. You almost always have to consider other factors like the other civs, and these factors should figure in all your diplomatic moves if you want to be generally successful.

There are lots of ways you can focus on diplomacy early. Just like aiming toward space race, cultural, or any other victory type, it might not always work. You need to be ready to adapt, but there's no reason that you can't or shouldn't keep diplomacy in mind from the first turn if that's how you intend to win.

Diplomacy is part of the game, and staying with no religion or agreeing to give tribute, for example, are quite common decisions that even the most hardcore warmonger might need to make without ever intending to achieve diplomatic victory. You did mention your take on real diplomacy as planning who your allies are going to be and nurturing your relationship with them from early on. In my experience, that is hardly possible on Emperor. War is so important that diplomatic relations really take a back seat in the early up to mid-game. From there, what diplomatic moves you make are usually what will get you the diplomatic victory.

 

[Sisiutil]

Thanks for the input, everyone! Very good advice.

I especially appreciate the guidance regarding the civics--once again, my usual preferences are coming to the fore, and I need to keep reminding myself that I'm playing a very different strat here. It was almost a reflex to switch to Free Speech at this point, as you'd want to do so ASAP in a cottage economy, which is what I'm used to. Yes, yes...I'm not RUNNING a cottage economy. D'OH!! Old habits die hard, what can I say.

I'll probably switch to Vassalage as soon as I can so I can keep producing Level 3 units without Theocracy. I'll stick with it at least until I build the Pentagon, then I might switch to Nationhood if WW is a problem, or back to Bureaucracy if it's not. The switch to Free Speech was definitely worthwhile for diplomacy, happiness, and research, so I'm going to stick with it. I had another look at Karakorum, and it will still be a very good production city without State Property, so I will heed everyone's advice and stick with Mercantilism. On a related note, the Forbidden Palace will probably go in New Serai--a good central location for the northern half of the continent. (Hatty beat me to Versailles.)

--------------------

UncleJJ, I'll be VERY interested to hear the results of your comparison game. You said to go one way (markets, grocers, banks), but most of the other posters said to go another to remain in keeping with the principles of a specialist economy. Normally I do indeed build commerce multipliers in science cities, since they usually have cottages and therefore benefit from both types of buildings. And in fact, I did start several of those buildings, then abandoned them. In a SE--theoretically--only the wealth cities will benefit from these buildings. The science cities should be building units in the absence of any science buildings. Again, in theory.

This ALC is one of the most experimental I've done and as such has been an extremely worthwhile experience, though not without a few bumps on the road. Posting the results of your game would allow us to further fine-tune the SE strategy for all our future games that use it. Your comparison game should illustrate, I hope, whether the theory is all it's cracked up to be. And that's a big part of the reason why I continue to post these games.

Whatever level of expertise I may have gained, I still consider myself to be a "typical" Civ player. As I've said many times, I don't play with a calculator handy and I don't want to, though I am certainly willing to take advice from those who do. (Thanks! ) Perhaps this means that my execution of certain strategies are not optimal. In the ALCs I think that's fine for two reasons. First, as I've also said before, everyone can learn from my mistakes. Second, I think it illustrates whether a certain strategy is viable for another "typical" player, who, like me, relies on the seat of his pants more often than a calculator, and will therefore also make a few sub-optimal decisions.

Yavathol's experience is a case in point. The MC/Pyramids gambit requires a very precise, detailed approach, and many of its required steps (like the heavy capital/2nd city overlap) are counter-intuitive. You CANNOT make sub-optimal decisions with that gambit, and Yavathol's game proves that (how's that for a back-handed compliment? ). The overall specialist economy is a little more forgiving, as the relative success of Frankfurt has shown. But a comparison game would be very informative.

-------------------

Yes, I want to go after Monty VERY soon. I'll probably take 2-4 turns to get everything into position (including moving my Workers out of harm's way) and then hit him hard. I looked at the tech chart again, and he's not far from getting some key military techs (Gunpowder, Chemistry, Military Tradition). He'll probably bee-line to them as soon as I declare war. Besides attacking his cities, I think I'll also send some units far behind enemy lines to pillage some of his resources: horses and ivory in particular, then cottages and happy to slow down his research. (Another benefit of the SE: may as well pillage cottages around cities you're going to capture since you'll probably replace them with farms.)

I also want to move some of my Frigates into position outside his coastal cities, most of which are on the west coast. The Frigates could remove the cultural defenses in advance of my stack arriving. This would allow me to have at least two stacks: one with the 4 Accuracy Cats for the inland cities, another without them since the Frigates will take care of the coastal cities' defenses. I also need to move my Galleons over there, in anticipation of shipping units to the other continent.

I think the battle plan will be to use a stack with the 4 Accuracy cats to quickly take that coastal city SW of New Serai, whatever it's called. (I still hate the Aztec city names. Watch for them to change as they fall.) Taking that city should alleviate enough of the cultural pressure on New Serai so it can feed itself. Meanwhile, the rest of my forces will remain in New/Old Serai and soak up Monty's initial counter-attack. Once that's been absorbed, the 4 Cats head NW, into Monty's interior, with one stack, while the other works its way west then north along the coast, following the Frigates.

----------------------

Diplomacy or Domination? Well, let me put it this way. I could bee-line to Mass Media. Or...a little further north on the tech chart...definitely attainable within the next round...can you see it? Can you? Look hard...

Industrialism.

PANZERS.

Deutchland uber alles...

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

You might realize this already, but panzers also require Rifling and oil. I often find myself forgetting about the secondary requirements for various units and then being disappointed when I can't actually build them.

 

[pigswill]

I'm not sure my vanilla cottage game is going to be that good as a comparision mainly coz I've not been playing well (I was tempted to say playing badly but what the heck I'm keeping up with you) and in many ways playing my 'normal' game and not focussing on the economy (build a few cottages, few markets and libraries and largely forget about it).
Despite all that at 1700ad I'm only 1 tech behind (haven't yet finished Wall Street in Shrine City) and ahead militarily I think.

 

[Sisiutil]

You might realize this already, but panzers also require Rifling and oil. I often find myself forgetting about the secondary requirements for various units and then being disappointed when I can't actually build them.

Thanks for that reminder. Oil has been revealed thanks to Scientific Method, and believe me, Rifling is a priority. But you've reminded me that Combustion will be a priority as well. Since it will allow me to make the Frigates into Destroyers, it's all good.

 

[cabert]

so the tech plan is combustion, then rifling then industrialism?
while civics plan is mercantilism+caste system+free speech (vassalage later??)+representation+free religion?
the battle plan is to kill the aztechs fast and clean, then build up the destroyers, transports and panzers to kill JC?

Should be fast, easy and fun

 

[Eqqman]

I also want to move some of my Frigates into position outside his coastal cities, most of which are on the west coast. The Frigates could remove the cultural defenses in advance of my stack arriving. This would allow me to have at least two stacks: one with the 4 Accuracy Cats for the inland cities, another without them since the Frigates will take care of the coastal cities' defenses. I also need to move my Galleons over there, in anticipation of shipping units to the other continent.

I'll guarantee that he has at least one coastal city with ships of his own in it. If you find this city and park your own ships next to it so he can't sail out without a fight, then you'll have this navy bottled up for the whole war. For whatever reason the AI never sallies out to force a battle with ships, and you can easily prevent it from trying to land troops behind the lines. If you have a clear naval advantage like Figates over Galleys or Destroyers over Frigates then the best strategy is to linger just outside this city to allow the fleet to sail out so you can pick off his ships en route to you.

To speed up the war you won't want to wait for his attacking army to come after you. If you can, try to find out where he's storing this army and gauge it's strength. If it's kept in a city that you could attack on the first or second turn of hostilities then arrange your troops so that you are attacking and eliminating this stack yourself right away. Then the war will basically be over as soon as it starts as the only troops left to fight are the ones that get produced over the course of the war which trickle in by ones and twos. Once you wipe out the offensive army the AI never tries to collect another stack until peace breaks out.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Panzers! Forgot you were that close. I didn't see it, really. I don't play too many games that far into the tech tree anymore. Domination around Riflemen and Cannon tends to be the modus operandi as of late.

Panzers would make this game perfect. Sounds like the final push has been chosen. Destroyers, transports, panzers. We look forward to reading the tales of the domination of the German Civilization uber alles.

 

[Sisiutil]

so the tech plan is combustion, then rifling then industrialism?
while civics plan is mercantilism+caste system+free speech (vassalage later??)+representation+free religion?
the battle plan is to kill the aztechs fast and clean, then build up the destroyers, transports and panzers to kill JC?

Should be fast, easy and fun

Pretty much, though I'll be switching to Vassalage ASAP. I will probably build up units in the cities' queues but not actually complete them until after the civics change.

As for techs, I think once Physics is complete I'll grab Rifling to assist with the war effort. Following this, Biology for another boost to the Specialist Economy. Then Steam Power and Railroad for the Worker and production boosts as well as to move troops more quickly. Assembly Line to get started on the Pentagon. THEN Combustion, Electricity, and finally (Monty should be almost done by then) Industrialism. I may start burning a few GS rather than settling them if they offer beakers towards these techs, just to speed things up.

 

[stuge]

Heh, Deutschland uber alles indeed. Add one vote for the Blitzkrieg.

Well, sort of a Blitzkrieg anyway.

I've dominated with a Panzer rush a couple of times myself and it's all in the timing. I'm too lazy to find out where Caesar stands tech-wise right now but if you think he isn't going to get Infantry anytime soon, go for it. In that case, you only need a moderate strike force of Panzers and some troops to occupy the falling cities.
But if he gets a chance to mass-upgrade his rifles and longbows, the Panzers will need either heavy artillery support or vastly superior numbers. The fast and the well-armed eat the slow and stupid wimps for breakfast. Or something.

And if you can produce lvl 4 Panzers right off the bat, leave them unpromoted and promote some of them amphibious when you hit the shores. It will really help with establishing a beachhead.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually if planning on a Domination Blitzkrieg, use the Real Blitzkrieg tactic, (Weakest First) Hit who ever is the least likely to get advanced tech first to get a rapid beachead.

Basically if there is one power that might have Infantry soon, and another that won't... hit the one that Won't... If Multiple ones Won't then use other criteria to decide the target.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

the battle plan is to kill the aztechs fast and clean, then build up the destroyers, transports and panzers to kill JC?

I'm not sure there's any reason to prefer Caesar over the other potential targets. If you trust the power curve, the battle against Caesar will be roughly twice as hard as against either Hatshepsut or Roosevelt. Caesar is arguably a little more backward than the other two, but you have a huge technology lead on all three.

I know you were thinking that you might need to choose sides diplomatically and cut off Caesar, but currently all three of them like you. In fact, as far as trade goes, you're getting more from Caesar (3 resources) than from either of the others. I think you could attack any of the the three and be in roughly the same diplomatic situation.

But the main reason to prefer Hatshepsut, as I mentioned earlier, is that her land is the most likely to push you over the domination limit. Caesar's territory will have encroachment problems from both the north and the west. You're likely to gain only about half the area that his territory currently occupies. You might still need to attack Egypt or America in order to win. On the other hand, if you go after Hatshepsut right away, you'll probably pick up enough land to win without fighting another war.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Note: after Industrialism, get Flight quickly. That will let you reinforce quickly using airdrops.

 

[Eqqman]

But the main reason to prefer Hatshepsut, as I mentioned earlier, is that her land is the most likely to push you over the domination limit. Caesar's territory will have encroachment problems from both the north and the west. You're likely to gain only about half the area that his territory currently occupies. You might still need to attack Egypt or America in order to win. On the other hand, if you go after Hatshepsut right away, you'll probably pick up enough land to win without fighting another war.

The second most important reason in my book is that she has so many coastal cities she will easily be eviscerated in the opening round of the war. Use your open borders to find out which of her cities are lightly defended and you can probably get 3-4 on the turn hostilities commence. The amount of damage you can do on the first turn is limited only by the amount of troops you will scrape together by then. It might even prove more convenient to attack a city, then reboard whomever isn't needed to defend it and sail by sea to the next target. You'll move faster and you won't be exposing your offensive units to counterattack. You can squeeze in a turn or two of healing in safety on the boats while your warships knock down the cultural defense.

When you can make Airports, it will probably be worth coming off of caste system long enough to whip Airports in all of your production cities + a city on the other continent, depending on how fast it would take to make an Airport otherwise.

 

[UncleJJ]

Comparison Game

As Sisiutil requested here is my comparison game for the period 720 AD until 1200 AD. I tried to capture what Susiutil did and researched the same techs and use GPs the same way. The essential difference was I actively used the whip to install granaries, forges and economic buildings. I have no intention of ever running the Caste System and will instead run Slavery the whole game

The numbers of key buildings in the 10 cities my game, and Sisiutil's are:
Granary 9, 8
Forge 8, 1
Library 7, 7
Market 7, 0
Grocer 4, 0
Bank 2, 0
Other buildings were much the same
I constructed the Collosus in Colongne while Sisiutil built the Heroic Epic (I missed that ).
I built Ankor Wat in Persepolis so we could make more GP easily and hence make more shrines and priests get another hammer making them worthwhile specialists in some situations.
Taoism was founded in Munich which I made a holy shrine using the G Prohet and started spreading the religion. This will be where Wall Street will go and any GM or spare GP settled.

The underlying reasoning of building markets, grocers and banks in some cities is to make them into what I call Merchant Cities. In these cities the gold multiplier is better than the science multiplier so it makes sense to run merchant specialists in them instead of scientists. This gives a big profit and the extra gold enables the science multiplier for commerce to be raised to 100% for a few turns and that more than recovers the science lost from not running scientists all the time. The secret is all in the differences in the gold and science multipliers

Let's compare the two economies at 1200 AD:
at 0% research
Research 160
Gold 264
Trade 10
Costs 122
net Gold/T +152

at 100% research
Research 344
Gold 71
Trade 10
Costs 122
net Gold/T -41

So it is possible to run 3 turns at 100% research and 1 turn at 0% and still make a small gold gain.

For Sisiutil in 1200 AD
at 0% research
Research 283
Gold 124
Trade 9
Costs 131
net Gold/T + 1

It is important to note that the growth rate in my cities is much higher and most have a food surplus of about 6 while Sisiutils are about 2. This indicates that mine can grow and support more specialists which would further increase the differences. Susiutil is supporting 25 specialists (including 10 from mercantilism) while mine is only 18 (having just whipped in banks).

From this I conclude that my economy is strong and growing fast and capable of responding quickly, such as using the in 6 cities as soon as universities are researched, Sisiutil with the Caste System will take some time to build the 6th so that Oxford can be started. Sisiutil's economy by comparison is slowly growing and only just breaking even with 0% science slider.

This advantage does not come at no cost. Each time I use Slavery I whip away some of my specialists and the science beakers and gold is reduced for a few turns. With multiple farms my cities grow back 1 pop in 2 turns or even 2 pop in every 3 turns.

Comparing gold my economy has spent about 500 more but can recover that at 150 per turn with 0% slider. On research my economy is a few hundred behind and does not have Calendar (worth 500 beakers, I hope to extort from Kublai before I really need to use it )

Comparing hammers: my economy has built a lot more buildings as listed above and they represent many 1000 of hammers invested in production, while Sisiutil has 58 military units and none building compared to only 42 for me with 2 building... but the 7 extra forges and slavery means I will be able to build troops very quickly whereas the Caste System means you need to plan ahead.

Summary: I'll leave it to everyone else to decide whether my approach is better than what Sisutil has achieved. Obviously he is ahead at present in terms of gold and research but my economy is growing much faster and capable of recovering the investment. The Merchant cities and Munich Holy city will eventually allow the science slider to be run at 100% thereby using each part of the economy (commerce and specialists) as efficiently as it can be.


EDIT: after much messing around I managed to attach the save game

View attachment 135121

 

[Eqqman]

I was pooh-poohing the idea of declaring on Monty and waiting for his troops to come to you, but research on war weariness in another thread reveals that this isn't actually such a bad idea. It turns out that the length of the war and who started it have no bearing on WW whatsoever. All that matters is whose units are getting killed and where they die. So you will have less WW overall by killing as many of Montezuma's men on your own soil as you can. If WW was already low enough at the end of fighting Kublai that a small increase in the culture slider was more than able to handle it, then maybe it's not an issue, but if it is high enough that you're seriously thinking about a switch to police state then this is something to consider. Of course, the downside of this plan is that the number of turns spent overall on a defensive war is higher, which will be a crimp in efforts to win quickly.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Isn't war weariness tracked separately for each enemy? The old war weariness from Kublai shouldn't matter in a war against Montezuma.

 

[cabert]

Isn't war weariness tracked separately for each enemy? The old war weariness from Kublai shouldn't matter in a war against Montezuma.

totally true!
that's why there is no need yo wait : just the time to heal, then attack!

Hatcheptsuh before JC?
well, good enough for me.
I often do amphibious assault, even with non amphibious units. You have a lesser chance to win, but won't get any counterattack.
Meaning you have all the time to heal that you need. Even more so if you have a medic boat...

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Yes, don't forget the Luftwaffe.

@Dr Elmer Jiggle, good job remembering to add flight.

The Reichswehr had a Heer (Army), Marine (Navy), and Luftwaffe (Airforce). You have the first two, why not get a Luftwaffe on line before the game ends? It should help with a blitzkrieg.

Maybe change the sprite to a Red Triplane...