ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

Phrederick said:
:mad: :mad:

UncleJJ: Org Religion would only make sense to me during a buildup phase of the game. If Sisiutil chooses domination, and I think he is, then the rest of the game should be spent building units.

Sisiutils economy is not very strong (in my opinion and experience) and so if he is to expand futher to the other continent he'll need to build more infrastructure in his core cities and especially in the ones he has taken from Kublai and will take from Monty. OR will help that, together with forges to give +50% hammer boost and hence speed up development considerably.

He has no need to build many more units unless he's going to take heavy casualties on the other continent and that depends who he attacks and their military technology. He needs a big fleet of galleons to carry a powerful first wave but that is easy to raise.

If he is willing to stop research and convert most of his scientists to merchants then he can finance the oversea operation I guess. But why take that chance? When with proper attention to detail he can build enough infrastructure (courthouses, banks, etc) and spread the religions of his holy shrines plus hopefully Monty's Buddist shrine, and finance the expansion. For me OR is the obvious choice for Domination and boosting building as he goes.
 
i disagree uncleJJ
1)
the economy isn't outstanding, true
but the science is robust (though i would have settled every scientist, making it even more robust), and can overcome some "bad news" like new cities, including overseas.
2)
we're not going for a long game now =
- no need to build up the economy
- need lots of units, including navy (2 transports or 3 gallions for every cosatal city + 3/4 frigates for every coastal city), for a massive coast disaster vs hatshepetsuh
- need of high culture to push borders fast = free religion+free speech+culture slider+mercantilism+caste system (free artists in new cities, don't forget to mm them!)
- need of population > requirement = no slavery+farms!
 
cabert said:
- need lots of units, including navy (2 transports or 3 gallions for every cosatal city + 3/4 frigates for every coastal city), for a massive coast disaster vs hatshepetsuh

This reminds me of something I keep forgetting to experiment with. Can siege units amphibiously bombard from aboard a ship? For example, can a cannon in a galleon bombard an adjacent city, or does it need to unload to land first?
 
Round 9, Part 1: The War with Montezuma (to 1852 AD)

This was a very long and very eventful round--longer than I anticipated.

To start off with, after exactly five turns, I fixed the civics mistake several of you mentioned, switching away from Free Speech:

ALCFred1870ADa01.jpg


As I mentioned previously, I put Macemen into the queues of any city with a barracks so they would finish before Rifling and I could give them CRII at the very least. As some of them got close to completion (1 turn) before the above civics change, I put other units ahead of them in the queue. After the period of anarchy was over, I finished the Maces off, promoted them accordingly, and sent them towards the front. Almost all of them were upgraded to Riflemen as soon as the required tech became available.

In 1735 AD, I moved my stack towards the isolated city of New Serai. The only way to get them into the city was to cross Aztec territory, and that had an inevitable and wholly desired consequence:

ALCFred1870ADa02.jpg


Montezuma attacked New Serai immediately; I had to take out the Grenadiers (yes, he had Chemistry!), Knights, War Elephants, and Catapults he threw at me. I then made my way towards Tlaxcala and captured it 5 turns later in 1760:

ALCFred1870ADa03.jpg


After this, I split the stack in two. I sent the 4 Accuracy Cats north to help take the inland cities. The other stack went west and then north along the coast, capturing cities weakened by Frigates, as planned.

Speaking of the Frigates, they also intercepted two Galleys of troops, Monty's pathetic attempt to outflank me:

ALCFred1870ADa04.jpg


That was about it for the naval action in this war. But it wasn't the last action my ships would see in this round, far from it. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

I also sent some pillagers deep behind enemy lines to take care of the most troublesome Aztec units, the mounted ones. Monty had Horse Archers and Knights and would probably bee-line to Military Tradition for Cavalry, seeing as how he loves the military techs. So I sent a Galleon (with a Frigate for escort) carrying one Grenadier and one Cavalry to pillage the horse pasture north of Teotihuican. Meanwhile, another small group (same units) trudged through enemy territory to the pasture outside of the Aztec capital:

ALCFred1870ADa05.jpg


Now I just had to worry about Grenadiers and Musketmen. The latter were easy prey, but the former were troublesome. Their raids and willingness to attack any unit unfortunate enough to be out in the open field (sometimes unavoidable) or wounded after an attack no doubt contributed to the length of the conflict.

On another note, I've been changing those unpronounceable and confusing Aztec city names, using the names of famous Germans instead--philosophers (Neitzche, Wittgenstein), composers (Bach, Beethoven), and, of course, the greatest Germans of all...footballers (Beckenbauer, Klinsmann). :D I've probably misspelled several of them, but they're easier to remember than the Aztec names.

On the domestic front, I researched Biology with the help of a Great Scientist, giving my specialist economy a shot in the arm. I had to really micro-manage the cities, however, as war weariness was slowly rearing its ugly head and taking a toll. I couldn't let the cities grow too quickly, or they'd outpace my ability to complete happiness buildings. Some of the cities started becoming unhealthy too, so I had to build Aqueducts and Grocers to help alleviate that.

In the good news column, I also got, against all odds, a Great Engineer! (I also got a Great Merchant, who settled in Berlin, and a couple of GS.) I sent the GE to the former Mongol city of Karakorum, where the Ironworks was approaching completion. I didn't use him for the Ironworks, though. Once I finished researching Assembly Line, I had a much better use for him:

ALCFred1870ADa06.jpg


That took the Pentagon down to 5 turns from 13, IIRC. Once it was complete, I was able to switch civics from Vassalage and still have an XP bonus:

ALCFred1870ADa08.jpg


Nationhood and Police State were both needed. Not only was I getting dinged for war weariness; both Roosevelt and Hatshepsut adopted Emancipation. My retention of Caste System was, therefore, coming under fire from my populace, and the happy penalty for that increased over time (by the end of the round, my biggest cities had a -4 unhappiness penalty for it). I made a research diversion for Fascism and built Mount Rushmore, but I still had to micromanage happiness in several cities.

Including all my coastal cities! That set me back in planning the invasion of the other continent, because it made it very difficult to build Galleons when I had to build colosseums and temples instead. Sigh.

Anyway, the war continued. In 1824 AD, at long last, I finally captured the jewel in the Aztec crown, the holy Buddhist city of Tenochtitlan:

ALCFred1870ADa07.jpg


As a bit of a bonus, its commerce multipliers (market, grocer, bank) all survived! Once it came out of revolt, I built a theatre there to fight a massive amount of unhappiness. Then I started on Wall Street while my Workers converted several of the city's farms to cottages.

I'm not making a transition to a cottage economy, far from it. However, I'm no fool. Mature cottages (villages or towns) that I've captured, I'm keeping. Cottages and hamlets, though, are getting changed into farms. I have three official wealth cities: Berlin, Beshbalik, and now Tenochtitlan (I kept the Aztec name--guess I'm sentimental). I had to push the slider to 30% culture later in the war, and I spent a lot of gold on unit upgrades (Grenadiers, Rifles, Machine Guns, and Infantry). But I was pretty much always around 100 GPT in the black.

In 1846, the 100 years war to own the continent came to an end:

ALCFred1870ADa09.jpg


Finally! Even with two stacks, this took a lot longer than I wanted it too. The thing that slows me down the most, I think, is trudging through enemy territory 1 tile at a time. Next time I do this, I think I'll get the Galleons or Transports built a lot sooner and use them to move troops along the continental coastline faster.

With the war over, war weariness vanished and I was able to roll the culture slider back to 0%. I performed a civics change:

ALCFred1870ADa10.jpg


Going back to Representation restored the extra research points from every specialist I had given up while in Police State, shaving a turn off of research. Too bad I had to lose two turns to get that back, meaning it would take two techs to pay itself off.

Now I had to take a few turns to get ready for the next war! I desperately needed to get several transports built. I had upgraded a few of my Frigates to Destroyers. I left most of the Frigates around the coast protecting the seafood resources; I figured I'd only need a couple of Destroyers to accompany the Transports. And a few turns of peace would allow me to build infrastructure to deal with the next bout of war weariness.

Alas, it was not to be. On the very turn that I came out of anarchy, look what happened:

ALCFred1870ADa11.jpg


To be continued...
 
Round 9, Part 2: The War with Caesar (to 1870 AD):

The announcement of war surprised me for several reasons. First of all, Caesar had been "Pleased" with me, with no diplomatic demerits, for a long, long time. Granted, that means nothing to the AI, but still. Second, he was a somewhat distant 2nd to me in power:

ALCFred1870ADb01.jpg


Third, he was also the furthest behind in technology:

ALCFred1870ADb03.jpg


Fourth and finally, his chosen point of invasion--my recently-acquired northwest coast--was where the bulk of my massive modern military was gathered, preparing for an invasion of the other continent.

In other words, it seemed obvious to me that Caesar would be hopelessly outmatched. But the clue to the AI's "thinking", if we can call it that, came from the other two remaining civs. Both Hatty and Franklin D. sent a Galleon with a Settler and a couple of defenders to the very northeast corner of my continent, which had some unclaimed territory now, with the contraction of the captured Aztec cities' borders. Hatty won the race and founded a junk city next to the only free fur tile. One of Caesar's ships also consisted of the usual Settler collection.

In other words, the AI was being its usual, opportunistic self, willing to plunk down a junk city just to claim a few tiles of land and maybe a resource. (Out of spite, I had pillaged the fur tile's camp. I also boosted cultural output in the nearest city and soon reclaimed it.) Caesar had simply decided to see what else he could grab from a war-torn and supposedly war-weakened area.

My response was obvious and inevitable.

ALCFred1870ADb02.jpg


The two Destroyers protecting my three existing Transports off the northwest coast, and another protecting the fishing grounds outside of the city of Beckenbauer, quickly dispatched Caesar's first wave of two ships. But I had a sneaking suspicion he wasn't done. I sent a "sacrificial transport" out out into the ocean towards Rome. I discovered the second wave of the invasion, and sent another Destroyer out to intercept:

ALCFred1870ADb04.jpg


On the following turn, my remaining destroyers made short work of these ships, sending them to Davey Jones' locker with all due haste.

Still, I suspected that Caesar had more tricks up his sleeve. My intrepid little transport went further west and uncovered Rome's third wave:

ALCFred1870ADb05.jpg


Okay, now I was getting worried. Was there no end to these ships Caesar was sending? And the few ships I had in my west coast navy were not getting a chance to heal after these many battles.

I upgraded every single Frigate to a Destroyer and rushed most of them to the west coast. I have never been so grateful for having won the circumnavigation bonus! I also postponed the Transport builds in my shipyards in favour of more Destroyers. Based purely on the numbers, however, it seemed likely that some of Rome's ships would make it through and land troops. I redeployed my land forces in anticipation. I took special care to fortify defensive Infantry (Combat I and Pinch) on the hills on the west coast to deny the Romans the benefit of high ground and defensive bonuses.

Then I noticed something that I never had before in all my games of Civ, because I've never had to use it.

Transports have an attack strength of 16.

Holy crud. Who knew? Well, several people, probably, but not me, until now! I immediately divvied up the work: Destroyers get Frigates, Transports get Galleons. It seemed fitting. And highly effective:

ALCFred1870ADb06.jpg


In the end, not one of Caesar's troops survived to set foot on German soil. Rome's dreams of conquest are--to borrow, appropriately, a Sicilian expression--sleeping with the fishes.

In summary, Caesar's armada was a mixture of jaw-dropping might and head-shaking hubris. The might came in the form of more ships sent against me than I've ever seen an AI launch before: 18 Frigates, 17 Galleons (all fully loaded), and 3 Caravels, in three successive waves. The hubris was from their contents: Knights, Catapults, Crossbowmen, Macemen, even a couple of Praetorians. Julie, Julie, Julie. Yes, Praets are an overpowered unit... in their time. And that time has been over for quite awhile. My Infantry and Cavalry would have made mincemeat of Rome's forces, had they been allowed to land. But I chose not to allow it.

Now that his invasion force was gone, I thought Caesar would be reasonable and consider peace talks. I thought wrong:

ALCFred1870ADb07.jpg


So, Caesar refuses to talk, eh? Vell, mein Kaiser...ve haff vays uff makink you talk.

You just know I've been waiting to use that phrase all game, don't you? :D But I ain't just blowin' smoke, kiddies:

ALCFred1870ADb08.jpg


Caesar, meet the Panzer. Panzer, Caesar... oh, darn it all, where did he go in such a hurry?

Probably off to try to drag his sagging power rating up by its bootstraps:

ALCFred1870ADb10.jpg


Insert your own Viagra joke here.

Well, leaving Caesar aside for now, let's talk big picture and victory conditions. The map first of all:

ALCFred1870ADb12.jpg


And the victory screen:

ALCFred1870ADb11.jpg


I've got the population easy, but land is another matter. Even if I brushed Hatty and Roosevelt's junk cities off my continent (and no, I'd rather not be at war with everyone, thank you very much), I still won't have enough for the domination win.

(It really hits home how unusual the Hatshepsut ACL game was. I won domination with a single continent, mainly because the land masses were unusually imbalanced. Luck of the draw.)

So I have to invade the other continent for a domination win. I'm already at war with Rome, but we have already agreed that Caesar's territory will be the hardest to use for victory, because I'll face cultural pressure from all three civs. But I would prefer to wrap up this war with Caesar before taking on someone else.

In addition, I have a double-headed happiness problem. First of all, war weariness is starting to mount. I'm not sure if the deaths of the enemy units aboard the ships count towards WW, or just the ships themselves, but either way, I've killed a lot of Rome's men: over 40 ships in total! And if the Galleons' payloads count, that's another 68 units killed. Second, the Emancipation unhappiness is increasing as well; as I said in Part 1, it has grown to a -4 to -5 penalty in my largest cities.

On the plus side, the culture slider has a lot of room to maneuver (at 10% now, with a 497 gold surplus and Wall Street a few turns from completion). Also, I almost have all the techs I need/want to finish the game (Flight is almost done; Radio and Artillery would be nice to have). Still, as WW starts to kick in and the Emancipation penalty grows, I may have to do something drastic.

(It's interesting: in the Victoria ALC game, I ran Caste System right to the end of the game with no significant happiness problems. But there, I was going for a peaceful cultural victory, not a warmongering domination win. I had also, therefore, prioritized cultural techs and cultural (happiness-increasing) builds like temples and so on.)

Here's a strategy I've been mulling over:

Keep the civics as they are at first. Build Panzers and happiness buildings; stockpile gold. Once my transports are ready, send the troops over. Capture Arretium, the coastal Roman city that is closest to Egypt. Sue Caesar for peace. If he's unwilling, take Cumae and Heliopolis (which he took from Egypt).

Once I have peace with Caesar, and Arretium comes out of revolt, switch civics to Universal Suffrage and--maybe--Emancipation, though peace and a new foe may make it unnecessary. Use US to rush buy airports, especially in captured Roman cities. Attack Hatshepsut for the domination win. If WW gets worse along the way, switch from US to Police State. If WW is manageable, maybe switch back to Representation.

If I go this route, Communism and the Kremlin are added to the list of "nice to have" by the time I switch to US, though they are by no means essential.

Here's the saved game. Thoughts?
 
I don't pretend to be an expert, but wouldn't you only need airports in your mainland cities?
 
wioneo said:
I don't pretend to be an expert, but wouldn't you only need airports in your mainland cities?
An airport in the "target" city means you can land as many units there in one turn as you have airports (and units to deliver) in your mainland cities. Without an airport, you can only airdrop one unit into that city per turn.

I think.
 
Does Domination count total land mass, or land within cultural borders? If the latter, you can just start razing cities on the other continent until you command 65% of the cultured land.

If you have enough troops to pull that off already, WW won't matter. You might also consider switching to warmongering civics (which one has +2 happy faces for barracks?). Heck, start drafting the unhappies and send them to face Caesar's legions!
 
Actually not a bad plan,

However a few thoughts, you happiness is easily recoverable, start building Broadway, R+R and Eiffel and you get +4 happiness in every city
Plus every +10% on the slider is +2 happiness once you have Eiffel, +3 with a theater. Plus see if you can trade with Washington and Hatty for any resources you lost

I'd say get Rushmore, and put Jails, Theaters, Religions, and Barracks in your big cities

US isn't a bad idea, but I'd give Emancipation a pass.

As for invading... you Could just aim for Caesar's East coast, there should be minimal press


PS examining the results seems like carried units count,

40 enemy ships killed should give you between 14-27% War Anger, depending on who was attacking, and adjusted for Rushmore
68 units would be between 23-46% War Anger

Your big cities are 16-20, so you are getting ~25% War Anger, closer to the impact on the 68 rather than the 40 (especially if you have Jails there which would lower the expected amount further)

In any case it Will slowly go away (over ~68 turns) as long as Caesar doesn't send over too many other units in the meantime.


Note, also in Emancipation Fighting, US Gold could be used to build some of those happiness buildings. (including Missionaries which has the dual effect of both Happiness AND Gold)

So I'd go

Tech= Flight->Radio*->Communism**->Mass Media

*This is when you Can switch to US if you've started invading
** After this is the best time to do it (you can do it with State Property... get a National Socialist Democracy :) )
I'd say Research to Here and then basically Shut off Research, go Pure Production (except in Frankfurt)
Rep->US
Caste->Emanc (edited, you won't need the specialists, your cities are all at good productive populations)
Merc->SP
Once you have Communism+Radio you have all you can reasonably need... make the specialists work the terrain (everywhere except Frankfurt) and switch excess Farms to Workshops/Watermills for most cities or to Cottages for your Commerce Cities.

Hammers Priorities=
Wonders (all but UN are useful to you),
Shrine Missionaries, Panzers, Airports, Bombers
Gold Buildings in proper places
Happiness buildings Priorities=
Theaters,
Barracks,
Jails,
non-Shrine Missionaries,
Colluseums,
Markets/Temples/Forges

Get Happiness resources from whoever you can to replace those Caesar took, and make peace with Caesar if possible, with all that WW if he will make peace before you are ready to invade you probably Do want to invade someone else, so that his WW doesn't hurt you.

In any case if you have enough troops, just attack his East Coast, and make sure you get Jails in those big cities...give those crybabies something to cry about.
 
Sisiutil said:
Here's a strategy I've been mulling over:

Keep the civics as they are at first. Build Panzers and happiness buildings; stockpile gold. Once my transports are ready, send the troops over. Capture Arretium, the coastal Roman city that is closest to Egypt. Sue Caesar for peace. If he's unwilling, take Cumae and Heliopolis (which he took from Egypt).

Given that you're already at war with Caesar, I think you might as well take whatever you can take from him. You just obliterated his army, so he can't have that much left in reserve. Definitely take whatever cities are on the Egyptian border before you give him peace. That will solve whatever cultural problems you might have that reduce the size of any captured Egyptian land.

If you can wipe him out completely (or all but that one isolated city in the west), you might even be able to win without fighting Hatshepsut at all. At the very least, you can probably get by with a quick battle to take her border cities ... game over.
 
How much are you using caste system? I bet switching to emancipation wouldn't be too much of a burden. You would lose the immediate artist in new cities, but I bet most cities don't have more scientists/merchants than their infrastructure can support.

After flight, I'd consider virtually switching off research. How much of a tech lead do you have over Hatty? Perhaps tech to bombers, but I think that's the last military tech that you need. I'd leave communism alone, the cost of research plus the cost of the Kremlin is probably more than you would save in hurry costs. AFter radio, just switch everyone to merchants and rushbuy hordes of units.
 
Yes, I forgot to mention that I build Broadway already, and Rushmore as well. And I, too, was thinking on making Radio my next tech (after flight) in order to build Rock & Roll and the Eiffel Tower. And yes, using US for happy buildings as well as airports has also occurred to me.

Tennyson, domination wins only include land within your cultural borders. You raze everything if you're going for a conquest win. ;)

Caesar may make the best target for now since I'm already at war with him, and yes, he's much weaker now. (Though he's still just barely ahead of Hatty and just barely behind Roosevelt. Interesting.) One problem with attacking Hatty is she's a Creative leader, so there will be more "Egyptian culture saturation" in tiles around her cities. Though taking the Roman cities bordering on Egypt, as Doc suggests, would lend itself best to switching opponents if need be.

EDIT:
Phrederick said:
How much are you using caste system? I bet switching to emancipation wouldn't be too much of a burden. You would lose the immediate artist in new cities, but I bet most cities don't have more scientists/merchants than their infrastructure can support.
Just as an experiment, I went into the save and switched to Emancipation to see where that put me.

Before the switch:
Research: 1301 per turn
Civics upkeep: 182 gpt
Net income: 497 gpt
Culture slider: 10%
Remaining turns to research flight: 4

After the switch (and adjusting the specialists):
Research: 1042 per turn
Civics upkeep: 167 gpt
Net income: 668 gpt
Culture slider: 0% (no unhappy cities)
Remaining turns to research flight: 5

One thing I noticed as I went through the cities is that many of them do not have science multipliers like Libraries. So even though I could run specialists, I couldn't run scientists. So the difference could be even less than it appears. Note to self: in a specialist economy, do NOT rely just on Caste System to provide your specialists. Build the necessary buildings, especially science multipliers!

Mind you, switching to US would have an additional negative impact on research, since I'd lose the +3 research bonus per specialist. I could, of course, switch to US and Emancipation, do my rush buying (including science buildings too), then switch back to Representation ASAP and leave Emancipation in place. That's a lot of civics switches for a leader who isn't spiritual...
 
I say the plan's good - go for eiffel tower/rock and roll for happy - don't switch off caste system until you are done teching - stop teching after bombers - see if you can get hatty or FDR to give you a world map to show where the new cultural borders are AND what cities will be opertune to attk and what will be hard to keep - Attack Julius with a close eye on hatty if you need more land
 
Betafor said:
I say the plan's good - go for eiffel tower/rock and roll for happy - don't switch off caste system until you are done teching - stop teching after bombers - see if you can get hatty or FDR to give you a world map to show where the new cultural borders are AND what cities will be opertune to attk and what will be hard to keep - Attack Julius with a close eye on hatty if you need more land
Sounds good to me!
 
Yeah, if most cities don't have libraries/universities/observatories, then stick with Caste System.

So as soon as you research Radio, stop teching and switch to US? Since you've already broken JC's armies, I'd take his cities for a while, but with an eye towards eventual peace followed by an invasion of Hatty.
 
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