Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Aug 19, 2006.
There is also the Spy, which is obviously only a late-game help.
True, though that still only solves some of the problems. Just like looking at the graphics, it tells you what's there before you attack but not what's left when you're through. I'll admit, that's mostly minor. I don't think you would usually make your keep/raze decision based on whether there's a forge and a courthouse, but you should be able to if you want.
There's also a really silly limitation in the information provided by the F9 screen. If you have a unit there busting the fog, it will tell you the name of the city that holds a wonder. As soon as the city leaves your sight, that information disappears and all you know is the civilization. You can still zoom in on the city graphics to see what city has the wonder, but it's like nobody in your government's cartography division remembered to write down what you knew. Really dumb.
I think it was a case of having other priorities (making certain military units available, mainly) rather than researching Communism. It's no biggie--I mean, what do I really have to rush-buy other than a few airports?
You are right about that, no biggie, but just make sure you nuke Monty hard )
So, Sisiutil, why did you come straight off the water for a +50% to the enemy? Why not setup camp beside the city for 1 turn and give your troops a big boost? It would help with war weariness, and I think shorten the war in the long run. Enlighten me.
because your troops can be attacked on "camping" turn
collateral damage is worse than +50%
How much does the AI reall do that? Humans, sure, we'll take the fight to them, but I don't see the AI doing that a whole lot. But I can be mistaken.
This late in the game I've seen the AI suicide a lot of cannons/artillery against my big stacks.
My last monarch game my complete medieval invasion force was obliterated by 10 catapults followed by numerous knights. Needless to say I cursed a bit when that happened. So yes, the AI does use pults a lot.
I should think you've been given the answer in the previous posts, all of which are the logic behind the "Syrian Doctrine" which I'm trying out. It's working well so far, though the Cannons tend to get the worst of it, losing far more fights than they would probably win from a land-based attack.
I've played the next round and will try to post it tonight...
I am not quite sure what the Syrian Doctrine is exactly (it's obviously related to amphibious assault). I dislike attacking from ships with non amphibious troops.
I think the best way to accomplish what is required here is to land a force of good stack defenders plus the cannons on a tile next to the city that has good defence (hill or forest is good). The AI will attack this stack with catapults and cannons and the collateral damage will injure the defenders but as far as I understand siege troops are immune to collateral damage. The stack defenders with terrain bonuses should be able to withstand the AI pre-emptive attack even if reduced to half strength, perhaps with some losses.
Then next turn the cannons are full strength (unharmed by the collateral damage and never having been attacked directly) and not on a ship... so they can make a normal attack and weaken the defenders without the 50% penalty for being non-amphibious and attacking from a ship.
Now the amphibious troops which until now have been sheltering on a ship safely away from collateral damage can make full strength attacks. That way you should get full strength attacking cannons and full strength attacking troops with amphibious or CR3 promotions (with 50% penalty)
This idea is part of a new strategy I am developing to absorb the counterattack the AI always throws at its attackers. The stack defenders will be beat up but they will have severely weakened the AI city defenders stack and its reserve forces. This can make capturing the city and subsequent ones easier. It is best to absorb the AIs counterattack with troops designed to do that job rather than ones which have CR promotions. Your main attacking force is held in reserve until the AI onslaught is spent. I am still experimenting with these ideas but so far it seems to work as expected.
I agree. You're conceding a -50% that you don't need to concede. It's roughly the same as attacking a city that has 50% cultural defense without bombarding it first, which you would almost never do (maybe tanks vs. longbows but rarely).
Is that true in Classic? I thought it was new to Warlords, but I never really checked.
If you have a medic in the stack, collateral damage can usually be healed in one turn. If the AI wants to waste all its troops futilely attacking my stack while it sits fortified on a forested hill, good for me.
In fact, that reminds me that it's worth reiterating something else you said. "The stack defenders with terrain bonuses should be able to withstand the AI pre-emptive attack." This is probably the most critical point. I rarely give my defenders Guerilla or Woodsman promotions. They're too situational, and they make the unit almost useless for offense. I usually prefer to give them Combat promotions and one of Pinch, Formation, Charge, etc. In this case, however, you want a few defenders that have the terrain defense promotions. That will give them +50% against any attacker. That's much better than you can get from the Combat tree.
The Good Doctor and UncleJJ understand what I'm getting at...
all this is well and good... when you're far > to the AI
When you have limited force, the siege units are not immune to colateral, and your forces won't be able to withstand the preemptive assault.
Just use a previous save and try it again your way...
It's not about force size. In Warlords, all siege units are always immune to collateral damage. I just checked though, and this was a new feature, so it's not relevant for this game.
Thanks for checking. I withdraw my suggestion to Sisiutil in that case. My experimenting is with Warlords.
The decision whether to attack from ships or land first may well depend on the number of seige units in the city; you'll certainly work this out when you're defence-bashing with frigates and that's the time to decide.
Edit: if seige units take no collateral damage then does that mean that a stack of 1 pike and 5 cats/trebuchets are immune to collateral? Sounds slightly over-powered to me.
Yes, that's what it means. Of course, it also means that one maceman and any other 5 units can wipe out your stack.
I have no idea why they implemented it this way, but it's definitely true. I've noticed it in my games, and if you look at the XML (CIV4UnitInfo.xml) you'll see tags for UnitCombatCollateralImmunes. All of the siege units are defined such that other siege units are immune to collateral damage.
It's an extremely naval assault strategy, first documented by Sirian in Adventure 3 in the modern era, later transposed by Sulla into the era of the wooden navy in Epic 3.
The basic point is that it completely reverses the balance of movement in attack and defense. On land, unless you have commando promotions, you units are tightly constrained in enemy borders, but the enemy can move units from anywhere to counter you. With a sea based assault, your stack can be sitting off the coast with multiple targets in range, and the enemy has to spread his defenses thin. He'll only be able to use the roads to counter attack.
Furthermore, the land based attackers can't touch the units on marine platforms.
Your defensive units are also useful for dragging down the cultural defense of the city.
Read the game reports to see demonstrations.
Round 9: to 1890 AD
A short round, granted, but something significant occurred and I'd like opinions.
As the round opened, I had razed Persia's southern cities, opening the terrain between my captured cities and Montezuma's territory. I had a bad feeling when I saw Aztec troops massing around Tyre:
WHY am I not surprised?
Time to bring in a friend to make sure I maintain my foothold on the continent:
Monty threw everything he had at me, and it cost me several units, including the last of the cannons I still had on the continent--my four with Accuracy promotions. It was close--he nearly took the city from me--but some reinforcements from Sardis saved the day:
... and Monty is a humbler man for the experience, I should think. I should note that I still have my good ol' trusty Accuracy Catapults, all 4 of 'em, and of course I can build more Cannons with the necessary promotions if needed.
Once I'd fended him off, I took the opportunity to finish Cyrus:
Both got razed, as planned. The last city to fall was Susa:
I'm glad that was over, because war weariness was beginning to raise its ugly head back home again. I wanted to wait before a civics change until I had Flight, then go to US to rush-buy airports and Nationhood for the bonus from barracks. I'd also like to wait until after the Pentagon is built to maintain the additional XPs for each new unit that I'll lose by leaving Vassalage.
The war with Monty, however, was just getting started. With several Galleons full of fresh new Cannons, I decided to sail south and give him a right proper spanking:
Of course I razed it! Razing Aztec cities has an appeal beyond doing that to anyone else's.
With all cities out of revolt and fat crosses at their full extent, I'm still a very safe distance from an "accidental" domination win:
10% safe, approximately.
Meanwhile, I have a crucial technology:
Should I continue warring against Monty, or switch to Hatty? Hatty is pretty close in technology to me, much closer than Monty who I don't think even has Galleons at this point. Monty, at this point, still refuses to talk, so I may have to raze one or two more cities if I want peace. Then again, if Hatty's more on par, it may make sense to keep after Monty for now and hit her with the nukes.
As for the airports, I've kind of been spending like a sailor, upgrading everything to Infantry that I could. I need to buy airports, and I'd also like to upgrade my Galleons and Frigates to Transports and Destroyers. Or should I just build them? I'm reaching that crunch point where the techs are getting expensive and I'm having to max out my specialists to keep them affordable; lowering the slider makes a significant difference to my hybrid economy right now. Any advice for increasing cash flow would be appreciated.
And what about techs? I'm going after Industrialism for Marines and Tanks now. What should come after that? Radio for Bombers? Artillery? Something else?
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