Alexander the Great Scenario: Help!

[Kryten]

Thanks very, very much Loulong.

I'll let you and mrtn thrash out the details.
I do like your improvements to Euboea in Greece, Palestine, and the addition of 3 lakes in Armenia.
But what happened to Tyre? (don't worry....I can always plonk a island off the coast of Palestine).
Yes, please do use the 'standard' civ terrain. I can add the 'Dirt Tracks' and 'jungle/Sand Dunes ' later.

To hetairoi22 & Cimbri (and anyone else who is interested),

Good input matey.
I’d like to include all your wonder suggestions.
Do you think that the “Palace of Persepolis” would be better as some sort of economic wonder, as Alexander is said to have captured anywhere between 40,000 & 120,000 talents that the Persian kings had hoarded and accumulated here? (another sort of Colossus variant?). I can’t see why knowing that all their harsh taxes had gone into making this magnificent palace would have made any citizens of the Persian Empire happy!
And Susa is another good one. Could we call it something like the “Sacred Susa” wonder, to reflect that this site’s ancient royal history?
“Ishtar Gate”….yes, Babylon did have the largest most impressive walls of any city at that time. A renamed Great Wall that allows a City Wall in all towns perhaps? (the knowledge of constructing with reinforced mud-brick allows metropolitan defences to be erected quickly?)
Tyre….a “Great Harbour” is a great idea ( ). Another Colossus variant? And should Tyre have two wonders, like Babylon, to emphasise it’s importance? (a “Great Harbour” AND a “Temple of Herculean Melcarth”?).

Sooooo….and it’s still under debate….here is a rough list of possible wonders:-
“The Legacy of Philip” (in Pella, the Macedonian capital), allows free ‘Training Grounds’ (i.e. barracks), owned by Macedon.
“Oracle of Delphi” (north of Corinth), doubles the effect of ‘Shrines’ (i.e. temples), owned by Macedon.
“Hegemon of Hellas” (in Corinth), economic wonder, owned by Macedon.
“Temple of Artemis” (in Ephesus), happiness wonder, owned by Persia.
“The Mausoleum” (in Halicarnassus), not sure about it’s effect, owned by Persia.
“Great Harbour” (in Tyre), an Adam Smith type wonder, owned by Persia.
“Temple of Herculean Melcarth” (in Tyre), Shakespeare type wonder, owned by Persia.
“Pyramids” (in Memphis), allows free Granaries, owned by Egypt. (Why does the Pyramids allow free Granaries in Civ3? )
“The Sphinx” (in Memphis), not sure about it’s effects, owned by Egypt.
“The Pharos” (to be built in Alexandria), Colossus type wonder, can only be built in Egypt.
“The Great Library” (to be built in Alexandria), doubles science output in the city, can only be built in Egypt.
“The Oracle of Ammon” (in Siwah), double the effect of ‘Temple Complexes’ (i.e. cathedrals), owned by Egypt.
“Hanging Gardens” (in Babylon), happiness wonder, owned by Persia.
“Ishtar Gate” (in Babylon), allows free City Walls, owned by Persia.
“Chaldaen Astronomy” (in Babylon), doubles science output in the city, owned by Persia.
“Sacred Susa” (in…er…Susa!), happiness wonder, owned by Persia.
“Palace of Persepolis” (in…yes…Persepolis), economic wonder, owned by Persia.
“Treasure of Perspolis” (also in Persepolis), J.S.Bach type wonder, Owned by Persia. (more money makes happy people?)
“Statue of Anahita” (in Balkh, capital of Bactria), happiness wonder, owned by Persia.
(Anahita = Goddess of the Oxus river: thousands came yearly to the licentious rites performed under her jewelled and guided statue, originally built by the Persian king Artaxerxes II….licentious rites….should make people happy!. )

Hmmm….I think we still need more ‘happiness’ wonders (and I’m not sure about some of the names).
Any ideas everybody?

 

[LouLong]

Kryten, this is not the finished map. It was just an "avant gout" ("before taste" or appetizer).

Thanks for clearing the reason for this plain of Phoenicia BTW I had no clue what it was

Gimme 2-3 more weeks.

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by mrtn
Hi Lou, some thoughts on the map.
Should there be more forests in Greece. Was they all really cut down at that time?
Shouldn't the middle of the Aral- and Caspian Seas be sea, not Ocean?
Should the Amu Darja and the Syr Darja be flood plains all the way, or maybe just plains in some places?
There is some tundra up in the Himalayas, why? Do they signify glaciers, or?
There is a lake between the Nile and Sinai? Whut?
Shouldn't the Takla Makan be a vast desert? You have it as forested grassland. (I don't really know how it was 2000 years ago, so I might be wrong.)

Otherwise it's looking mighty fine!

Mrtn, you did not read my post completely I think. This is not the finished map AT ALL. I just corrected some parts, mostly coastlines and height for a few areas only. There are pbs I cannot solve though (such as the shape of Turkey).

But I will take into account your remarks for some areas (such as Syr and Amu Darja) that I haven't touched YET.

One point about the lake between Nile and Sinai. I am not 100% sure I should put it but there actually was and is one (much bigger today). It is nowadays a part of the Suez canal and it is called the Salty Lakes or the Bitter Lakes.
I chose to put it but I can change that.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by LouLong
Mrtn, you did not read my post completely I think...

I never read posts, I only look at the pics.

The north african coast was only desert, is this really the case?

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by mrtn

I never read posts, I only look at the pics.

The north african coast was only desert, is this really the case?

No, Kyrenaic had enough resources to attract Greek colonization. I just haven't figured out yet whether the map reaches the area or not (the maps is bent a little). But I definitely plan on finsihing the Med and European parts soon.

 

[mrtn]

I meant the north african coast was only desert in the map, is this really the case in reality? I knew about Cyrenaica (I've been playing Avalon Hill's Civilization a lot ).

 

[Kryten]

I am planning to release this scenario in several different parts.

First, an ‘X-version’; a fully working scenario consisting of just the map with the new terrain graphics and resources, with a PTW bix file, for play testing purposes.
(units, leaderheads and building/tech graphics in this ‘X-version’ will be the untouched Civ3 + PTW ones, suitably renamed)

Second, there will be three ‘add-on’ graphic packages, which will have to be downloaded and installed individually, to be combined with the above to make a ‘Y-version’:-
* A ‘leaderhead’ package, with all the new animated rulers.
* A ‘buildings/tech’ package, with all the new static graphics.
* And a ‘single-figure’ package, with all the new units.

Third (if all goes well), a final ‘Z-version’, with all the above in one large easy downloadable and installable bundle.
(‘multi-figure’ units will be in an optional ‘Super Deluxe’ independent package, for those who wish them)

Doing things this way allows us to do some serious play testing while we wait for the new animation & graphic packages to be completed (mostly the new unit animations, which take the longest to create).

Soooo….”how long until the ‘X-version’ is ready Kryten?”.
I wish I knew!
Let’s say….and this is just a preliminary guesstimate….which may change….depending upon favourable circumstances….and is by no means definite…shall we say….
….maybe 4 to 8 weeks? (approximately). Maybe sooner….if we are lucky.

 

[Kryten]

I have only just noticed that mrtn has posted some very nice medieval type buildings in the Graphics Forum.

Here is the link....
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55256

I wonder if we could use some of these for Alexander?
The tower for example could be a 'Guard House' (i.e. Police Station)....either as it is or maybe with a different roof.

 

[Yoda Power]

Kryten have you seen the other new building graphics? They have been made quite many the last months, many ancient too.

 

[mrtn]

I agree with Yoda Power, there's been many new good buildings. Ukas posted some in his twelvepack for instance.

 

[Kryten]

Oooo....yes....ah....well....hmmm....now then....

The problem is.....it's the same as using AoE units; the dreaded words copyright.

If we want this scenario to placed on a future Firaxis/Atari expansion disk, or to be available from the offical Civ3 site, then I'm afraid that we only have two choices:-
1) make our own buildings from scratch....
2) or cut-'n-paste existing Civ3/PTW buildings.

 

[Yoda Power]

Kryten- mrtns buildings are taken from other games too. Most of Ukas´s buildings are made from scratch, he always states if they arent.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
Kryten- mrtns buildings are taken from other games too. Most of Ukas´s buildings are made from scratch, he always states if they arent.

All of mine except the first Smithy.

 

[LouLong]

Latest map version.

Mrtn, any remarks or you want to do your own modifs ?

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by LouLong
Latest map version.

Mrtn, any remarks or you want to do your own modifs ?

Is it the last version? My question about the tundra remains.
This map show some forests in Persia, and this some arable land in the libyan desert and in Cyrenaika which you haven't included. And maybe there should be more grassland in the Ukraine.

 

[Kryten]

I think your map looks very, very nice Loulong.

I understand mrtn's comments (and those are very useful map links mrtn. Thanks), but remember everyone.....whatever Loulong's final map will be, I hope nobody minds if I 'tweak' it a bit....just for play balance & scenario effects.

Take Cyrenacia for example: in reality it allied itself to Alexander.
As cities will only be allowed on 'Watered Sites' (i.e. floodplains), the city of Cyrene will be represented in the scenario by a 'minor city' (i.e. a bonus resource).
The reason?....well, we don't want Alex to send off a settler to found a new city there (because he didn't), and we don't want him marching his army there to capture the place (because he didn't).
So it is only there for cosmetic purposes.

It's the same with some of the mountain ranges: because mountains will be impassable, I may have to shift a few of them in order to create mountain passes and various 'gates', such as the Cilician Gates, the Persian Gates, the Caspian Gates, and so on.

Last of all, it may even be neccessary to create a land-bridge across the Bosporus/Hellespont, because quite frankly, I don't trust the AI to realise that Alexander must make an amphibious invasion of Asia Minor at the start of the scenario (we will see when playesting if this is required).

So please do continue with the map, and please do continue to offer suggestions and observations.
We can always 'tweak' it later.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Kryten
I think your map looks very, very nice Loulong.

Yeah, sometimes I'm too sparse with my praise. LouLong:

Originally posted by Kryten
I understand mrtn's comments (and those are very useful map links mrtn. Thanks), but remember everyone.....whatever Loulong's final map will be, I hope nobody minds if I 'tweak' it a bit....just for play balance & scenario effects.

Kal-el posted this link a while ago. Here is the 'Mother Link'.
Kryten; of course you have to tweak it. It's a scenario, for Om's sake.

Originally posted by Kryten
Take Cyrenacia for example: in reality it allied itself to Alexander.
As cities will only be allowed on 'Watered Sites' (i.e. floodplains), the city of Cyrene will be represented in the scenario by a 'minor city' (i.e. a bonus resource)...So it is only there for cosmetic purposes.

Will that give anything in the game? You need to have the bonus resource in a city radius to get anything from it. So it will be worthless (in game terms) cosmetics?
Idea: Maybe if we make it a strategic resource, it can give units that cost zero to build, but it expires quite fast, so you can only build a certain number of them. If this idea doesn't work with Cyrene (it's on the wrong side of the Mediterranean) it can maybe work someplace else?

 

[LouLong]

Last version

OK here it is. You will probably want to change a few things for gameplay (cities and such, roads) or for accuracy reasons, it is no problem. The only parts I have not retouched at all are :
- largely Afghanistan and the beginning of the moutain range.
- the area north of Aral sea
because of both lazyness and more important lack of real knowledge of the area.
Hopefully it is more accurate than the original version.

 

[Yoda Power]

where is it?

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
where is it?

Here