Alternate history exercise - Middle East without Islam

[Dachs]

Didnt Konstantinos IV have to pay protection money to the Bulgars? Konstantinos IMO really didn't do much to stop the falling pieces of the Empire. Though you can't blame him. The Slavs were on their gates, the Italians were revolting and the Pope was slowly making the EME lose all its Italian Provinces.

Well, Konstantinos IV having to pay protection money to the Bulgars wasn't really his fault - he was driving them back across the Danube, then the whole episode of his gout happened and his army kind of collapsed all on its own, with Asparukh sitting there in the Danube delta swamps wondering what the hell had just saved his people from being annihilated. He did turn Mu'awiyah's formidable fleet into fish food and badly mauled the Arab army that tried to besiege Constantinople, and successfully shredded a Slavic invasion around Thessalonika. Besides, he was able to offset the Bulgar tribute issue (which was a small tribute anyway) by fomenting a Bulgar civil war and then accepting the losers into his empire as converts and manpower.

Would it not be possible that Turks attacked the Persian empire again? They did it three times before already and the Persians are like the mortal enemies of the Turks. It would not be suprising if they headed south again. I dont see how the establishment of Islam leads to the Turks invading from the North.

Butterflies, homes. Who says they even get that far? The Sassanians could instead end up beating them like they did to the Hephthalites.

 

[aronnax]

Well, Konstantinos IV having to pay protection money to the Bulgars wasn't really his fault - he was driving them back across the Danube, then the whole episode of his gout happened and his army kind of collapsed all on its own, with Asparukh sitting there in the Danube delta swamps wondering what the hell had just saved his people from being annihilated. He did turn Mu'awiyah's formidable fleet into fish food and badly mauled the Arab army that tried to besiege Constantinople, and successfully shredded a Slavic invasion around Thessalonika. Besides, he was able to offset the Bulgar tribute issue (which was a small tribute anyway) by fomenting a Bulgar civil war and then accepting the losers into his empire as converts and manpower.

Butterflies, homes. Who says they even get that far? The Sassanians could instead end up beating them like they did to the Hephthalites.

So..you are saying, that without Islam, there would be no hired Turkic Army, no Turkic movement into Persia, no invasion of Anatolia, No Ottoman Empire, no fall of Constantinople, no Janissaries that . .. .. .. .. .-slap the Balkans, a Greek Anatolia, Megali Idea actually coming true? Would Tuesday be a good day then??

 

[Dachs]

So..you are saying, that without Islam, there would be no hired Turkic Army, no Turkic movement into Persia, no invasion of Anatolia, No Ottoman Empire, no fall of Constantinople, no Janissaries that . .. .. .. .. .-slap the Balkans, a Greek Anatolia, Megali Idea actually coming true? Would Tuesday be a good day then??

Beyond maybe two to three decades, any attempt to predict anything is masturbation on the part of any althistorian, or obvious fiction, and fails to become a historical exercise. That said, I regard the above as probable.

 

[aronnax]

Beyond maybe two to three decades, any attempt to predict anything is masturbation on the part of any althistorian, or obvious fiction, and fails to become a historical exercise. That said, I regard the above as probable.

Isn't alternative history masturbation already?

 

[Dachs]

Isn't alternative history masturbation already?

Mostly. But some historians like counterfactuals because they can help assign a given action import.

 

[Squonk]

At least for a period of time. It took the Byzantine Empire 400 years to dislodge the Bulgars from the Southern Danube region. And that was with the aid of the Arabs pouring troops into the Empire.

I don't understand what you mean by Arabs pouring troops into the empire.

Bulgaria wasn't delt with due to the Arab presence. The forces (Kibyrrheioton) were moved from the Balkans to protect Asia Minor, and the empire fought for their existance.

 

[Deuterium]

So..you are saying, that without Islam, there would be no hired Turkic Army, no Turkic movement into Persia, no invasion of Anatolia, No Ottoman Empire, no fall of Constantinople, no Janissaries that . .. .. .. .. .-slap the Balkans, a Greek Anatolia, Megali Idea actually coming true? Would Tuesday be a good day then??

This is wrong because the Ottomans were invading land prior to the introduction of Islam for them. It was only after they also conquered Jersualem that Islam was introduced to them and their cause for invading land was to spread religion but prior to that the Ottomans were already militaristic people and were conquering much of the Middle East. It's practically the same as when the Romans invaded Greece. The Romans conquered the land but adopted most of Greek ideals and spread those ideals to the rest of the world and I agree with one of the first posts. Without the rise of Islam which promoted knowledge for the Islamic Nations, we may still be in the Dark Ages. Lastly it wasn't because of the religion that the Middle East became corrupt after the introduction of many new ideas. It was the constant warfare and the West's need to introduce its own ideas into this region that changed it. Prior to the Crusades the Arab World was superior to most of the rest of the world especially Europe. Only when the Pope decided that Europe should stop its quarrels and go conquer the Middle East because the Ottomans had ruined a sacred Church, that the Arab world felt it was assaulted and since then has always had a conflict with the Western World and because of the Crusades the Crusaders were able to obtain new ideas and luxuries from the Middle East that allowed the Dark Ages to End and the Renaissance to begin.

Furthermore without the invasion of Constantinople by the Ottomans, there may have never been a Renaissance in Europe. This is because when the Ottomans conquered Constantinople, many of the Greek philosophers and scientists of Constantinople moved instead to Italy creating a large knowledge boost and leading to the Renaissance.

 

[Squonk]

This is wrong because the Ottomans were invading land prior to the introduction of Islam for them.

uh, no

It was only after they also conquered Jersualem that Islam was introduced to them

You probably mean Seljuk Turks, and no, they were muslims already.

Only when the Pope decided that Europe should stop its quarrels and go conquer the Middle East because the Ottomans had ruined a sacred Church,

yup, you definitely mix Ottomans and Seljuks.

that the Arab world felt it was assaulted and since then has always had a conflict with the Western World and because of the Crusades the Crusaders were able to obtain new ideas and luxuries from the Middle East that allowed the Dark Ages to End and the Renaissance to begin.

a risky theory

Furthermore without the invasion of Constantinople by the Ottomans, there may have never been a Renaissance in Europe. This is because when the Ottomans conquered Constantinople, many of the Greek philosophers and scientists of Constantinople moved instead to Italy creating a large knowledge boost and leading to the Renaissance.

Renaissance in Europe started (in Italy) before the fall of Constantinople.

 

[cybrxkhan]

One thing to note would be how this would affect East Asia. I'll talk about two things here, Buddhism and the Tang Empire.

Buddhism was widespread throughout Central Asia before the coming of Islam. It had a well established presence there, as well as a good missionary tradition (think the Bamiyan Statues in Afghanistan). When Islam came, the Buddhist population in Central Asia dropped dramatically. Had there been no Islam, Buddhism may have stayed vibrant and alive in Central Asia, possibly spreading to most of the nomadic tribes, including the Turks. It is quite possible that there could have even been a healthy (but not necessarily dominant) population of Buddhists in Iran and the rest of the Middle East, and, who knows, Buddhism may have had made much earlier and intimate contact with Christianity.

Another thing, anyhow, to consider is China. Although the Battle of River Talas, in 751, was where Muslim armies supposedly stopped the Chinese Empire in Central Asia, its historical importance is debated. Regardless, without a powerful Empire to cause them problems in Central Asia, China's influence over the region probably would have been much more significant, even if they would not have been able to hold control over it.

 

[aronnax]

This is wrong because the Ottomans were invading land prior to the introduction of Islam for them. It was only after they also conquered Jersualem that Islam was introduced to them and their cause for invading land was to spread religion but prior to that the Ottomans were already militaristic people and were conquering much of the Middle East. It's practically the same as when the Romans invaded Greece. The Romans conquered the land but adopted most of Greek ideals and spread those ideals to the rest of the world and I agree with one of the first posts. Without the rise of Islam which promoted knowledge for the Islamic Nations, we may still be in the Dark Ages. Lastly it wasn't because of the religion that the Middle East became corrupt after the introduction of many new ideas. It was the constant warfare and the West's need to introduce its own ideas into this region that changed it. Prior to the Crusades the Arab World was superior to most of the rest of the world especially Europe. Only when the Pope decided that Europe should stop its quarrels and go conquer the Middle East because the Ottomans had ruined a sacred Church, that the Arab world felt it was assaulted and since then has always had a conflict with the Western World and because of the Crusades the Crusaders were able to obtain new ideas and luxuries from the Middle East that allowed the Dark Ages to End and the Renaissance to begin.

Furthermore without the invasion of Constantinople by the Ottomans, there may have never been a Renaissance in Europe. This is because when the Ottomans conquered Constantinople, many of the Greek philosophers and scientists of Constantinople moved instead to Italy creating a large knowledge boost and leading to the Renaissance.

What are you talking about? Nothing you says makes sense. I agree with Squonk, that you are mistaking Ottoman for Seljuk.

 

[Winner]

So..you are saying, that without Islam, there would be no hired Turkic Army, no Turkic movement into Persia, no invasion of Anatolia, No Ottoman Empire, no fall of Constantinople, no Janissaries that . .. .. .. .. .-slap the Balkans, a Greek Anatolia, Megali Idea actually coming true? Would Tuesday be a good day then??

You're making the common mistake - you believe that events which occured historically would happen also in the alternate timeline.

Sure there wouldn't be any Ottoman Empire without Islam, that's as obvious as saying that there wouldn't be Knights Templar without Christianity.

 

[atridij]

Lets just say without Islam and things that followed it (good and bad just like any other religion) we wouldnt be here. Just think about the "Grandfather paradox" (you kill (or there isnt) your own granddad and there wont be your dad ect.

Each civilization had its 5 minutes of glory and each learning on predecesors experience, advantages and faults etc.
Ancient Western--->Islamic--->Western--->East Asian--->BOSNIAN --->?

 

[Tee Kay]

Welcome to the forums atridij

And yeah, it's very difficult to imagine the world without Islam. It's similar to asking what the world would be like if the Roman Empire or the Chinese Empire never was - Islam had such a tremendous impact on world history.

 

[Squonk]

Oh, a Bosnian. How nice. Welcome to the forum.

 

[atridij]

Well thanks guys on souch a warm welcome .

Truth to say i didnt expect that Civfanatics were so... you know polite (as being too occupied worshiping each master work (7 times a day) from our eternal and most gracius Lord Sid Meier).
Well thanks guys once again and I hope there are more people like you on this forum.

 

[TheLastOne36]

We could use another person from the balkans on these forums! Welcome.

 

[atridij]

So Balkanians are in short suplly, well dont worry theres enough of me for everyone.

 

[RedRalph]

Off the top of my head I know of one Romanian, a Serb and a Greek or two, so yeah no many Balkan types.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Off the top of my head I know of one Romanian, a Serb and a Greek or two, so yeah no many Balkan types.

There are two romanians, a serb, a croat, two greeks, a turk, a greek cypriot and an albanian living in scotland.

 

[Dachs]

Europe, you got the Visigoths, who are basically limping along, and if nobody mercy-kills them as happened in OTL maybe they might actually get their act together, unlikely as it seems. Franks have internal problems that, without the OTL defeat of Odo, might not get resolved - frankly p) it's out of my area of expertise.

Both these areas still largely out of my area of expertise, but I'd like to change my estimation of both of these: the Visigoths probably would have been able to take advantage of the destabilizing rise of the Pippinids/Carolingians to gain Aquitaine and possibly Provence. Reports of the Visigoths' weakness have been greatly exaggerated, it seems.