Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!

[SKILORD]

The awesomeness of this particular TL puts the one above it to shame.

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The Seven Years War was a worldwide conflict, fought in the Americas under the name the 'French-Indian War,' fought in India and the East, and also fought in Europe by virtually every European power, it would come to shape the world in a profound way, leading both to the American Revolution and the Unification of Germany.

The War on the Continent looked like a big win for the Allies (France, Russia, etc.) but the Tsarina died and her nephew made peace, I don't know how she died but lets suppose that she lived on a bit longer, well enough into the Summer campaigning season that Fredrick of Prussia would have been decisively beaten and large portions of what would have become Germany become Russian and Prussia would have lost the momentum that it would have used to unite Germany.

France can now shift more focus to the colonies, and they do so in North America, where they pull off the big 'W' in Canada. The British win in India.

So the Treaty of Paris looks a lot different, with massive tracts of Canada being given to France and France maintaining several important holdings in India, among them Bombay being the most significant.

The American Revolution cannot come, the Americans fear the French far too much to worry about taxation and representation. Even if the Sons of Liberty are formed they are inconsequential. Madison and Jefferson remain brilliant political philosophers, Washington dies unsung.

The French Revolution is also averted, France is nowhere near the troubles that lead to it. Corsica is not given to the French and remains Genoan, as does Napoleon Bonaparte.

In Russia Pugachev's revolts never get off the ground either, its a bad TL for revolts apparently and we assume that Pugachev dies somehow either in his youth or in the war, and Catherine's legislative reforms go through, this is the beginning of the liberalizing of Russia.

Britain removes itself from Continental affairs and takes a splendid isolation. However the Industrial Revolution is lead here.

In Corsica and Genoa Napoleon Bonaparte comes of age and he wrangles his way into a position of power, intent on the unification of Italy.

He fights several wars against the minor northern kingdoms and is surprisingly effective, causing no small apprehension from the Bourbon Monarchs of France, the Pope, and the Austrians, Napoleon is treading very thin ice.

Which breaks under him in Austria, the Austro-Genoese War is a painfully short affair, with the Austrians loosing the climactic battle of Verona to Napoleon and establishing Genoa as the ruler of Northern Italy, Austria, humbled by the war manages to keep Venice, and eastward. The Pope is now absolutely terrified, even though Bonaparte hasn't openly declared his intents to unify Italy that seems to be the case.

Napoleon now has a difficult situation on the road to uniting Italy, he has much of Northern Italy taken care of, but the Pope holds central Italy and Naples and Sicily are French. So Napoleon builds his army, filled with young and hopeful volonteers from across Italy and invades France. After winning several major battles by outwitting any French General that takes the field against him and often humiliating superior numbers the French begin to sue strongly for peace, Napoleon lets them keep what he has taken in France and they let him take Naples and Sicily.

The French populace is not happy about this and riots break out across the country, the humiliated troops try to keep them down and many a Frenchman is sent to the Bastille. Georges Danton, an aging and yet charismatic figure, begins to build a sizeable insurrection in France and the King flees the country successfully.

And so the French Revolution comes late, prompted by Napoleon's victories, Danton dies in the Revolution and a new cast of revolutionaries triumphs in this TL.

The King retreated to Quebec, where he is still considered King and Quebec goes from colony to Kingdom, with extensive lands including what would have been the Louisiana Purchase and much of Canada (Newfoundland is still British). The British seize Bombay and the other French Indian holdings, causing slight tension between them and Quebec, but not enough to justify war since the land was never Quebecois and the King of Quebec is not fond of France at the present.

All of this time Napoleon is aggressively working with the Pope to secure more of Italy, he finally gets the Pope to agree to keep only Rome, with the Capital of Italy being in Genoa, Napoleon Bonaparte is crowned Emperor of Italy and his eye is fastened firmly on Venice.

Napoleon's followers are enthusiastic and the nation of Italy can find few detractors for him, so armed he builds up his armies again and invades Austria again.

But Austria is better prepared this time and the war begins to drag on until the Emperor himself arrives at the front to deliver several smashing victories. This forces Austria to ask other German States to assist her against the menace posed by Napoleon and the others, among them Prussia, send sizeable forces and competent Generals who begin to hold the line effectively. The Treaty of Munich which brings most German states together in this war will become important later on, but it suffices to say that Napoleon is finally beaten back, without Venice.

The Austrians now focus more on Germany, seeking to unite them under her banner, the Treaty of Munich brought it far closer to that goal and a few German principalities are clamoring for unification but not enough to be significant.

In France Alexis de Tocqueville, highly influenced by the American Political Philosophies of Jefferson and Madison, manages to get himself in charge and begins massive reforming, based largely on Madison’s calls for Constitutional Governance and Jefferson’s emphasis of regional sovereignty, The United Provinces of France begins to return to power.

Industrialism reaches America despite all of the British attempts to the contrary; the Kingdom of Quebec grows ever stronger under the Bourbon monarchs. Russia begins to grow ever more liberal and towards the end of her reign Catherine of Russia bestows several pivotal powers onto the Duma in a ‘Rights of Parliament’ decree, among these are the powers of taxation and to veto a tsar’s declaration of war. Catherine dies before any of these are used against her.

Austria, under Franz Karl, who did not give up the throne in this TL as he did in ours and who proved savvier than his son, wants to see Germany united under her, though, and that won’t happen unless there is a powerful outside threat. Italy has already been beaten back and it never really threatened the rest of Germany anyways, France would be good, but the UPF has no interests in going to war, Austria begins to play up the threats posed by Denmark.

Many of the smaller German states begin to promise anything for protection against Denmark even forming a defensive Confederation with Austria, and the Danes unwittingly move to make Schleswig fully Danish as they did in OTL, causing a massive German reaction.

The war is quickly handed to the Germans, the Confederation becomes the new German Empire and the Austrian Emperor, Franz Karl, is crowned at Munich, the new German capital. Austrian interest in the Balkans dwindles as they move to being more of a German power, and the movements of troops against Denmark have allowed most of their Balkan holdings to dwindle, they instead work on colonizing, with limited successes much like Germany in OTL.

Among the newly unified state a notable missing element is Prussia, Prussia chose instead to work more closely with Britain since their defeats in the Seven Years War and is now nearly a province of the British Empire.

Italy has had far greater successes in colonial ventures, Napoleon took Ethiopia before he passed away, and much of Libya belongs to them, as the Ottoman Empire begins to crack and crumble the Italians are a major force which is picking away at the pieces.

Russia is also picking away at those peaces and the Italians join them in doing so with an Alliance. The Ottomans appeal to Britain for assistance, and the British assist. The UPF is offered a place in the fight, but de Tocqueville’s Republic cannot pass the resolution to go to war. The Germans decide to join the fight, though, and do so against the rising Empire of Russia rather than the falling one.

Sevastopol is besieged. Turkish and Russian blood is spilt. The more interesting theater of the war, though, is in the west where the British ally, the Prussians, fight with all of the ferocity of denied empire builders and retake much of what the Russians stole from them in the Seven Years War. The Russian nation is far more effective in this TL, but it is still little match for the Prussian Generals, like Moltke. Prussia miraculously returns to the world stage in this war with brilliant campaigns such as the drives on Warsaw and later Pskov and Smolensk, the Prussians become a major player in Eastern Europe and begin to recoup their lost glory.

The Russians loose the war, and in response a small and unsuccessful revolt goes up and down in St. Petersburg, in response to the revolt the Tsar repeals Catherine’s and her sucessors’ reforms and in response to that he incites a full blown revolution, one that succeeds.

The Italians manage to do fairly well, finally grabbing Venice from the Germans, forcing the Germans out of the Mediterranean. They manage to survive otherwise and apart from minor reparations paid to Britain they escape the war unscathed despite being on the loosing side. Their ambitions in the Middle East are stopped, though.

In Germany Marx’s politics become rather popular and Socialists and Reformists (a German Political party focused on constitutional government and a social reform slightly more radical than what the Socialists propose) become popular, the Reformists eventually gain enough of a hold to begin to put their reforms into place.

Interestingly many reformists feel that the battlefield of their age is Russia and a great many pour into the former rival of their nation and begin to influence thought and battles there. The Russian Revolution drags on for five years before the Russian Reformist Republic is formed.

Reformism believes in a high degree of government control of industry, its followers are in favor of more open constitutions than the UPF’s rather strict one, but they still favor constitutions. They believe in efficient police forces and have few qualms about Secret Police to achieve their ends. Reformism grows to one party stature in Germany as the new Emperor Maximillian (In OTL he was Emperor of Mexico) happens to be a Reformist himself. Other political parties are not outlawed, but they don’t get elected either. In Russia the Secret Police work to sabotage other political parties.

In France the Reformists never become popular, in Prussia they barely exist at all, in the United Kingdom there are many Irish Reformist Movements, but on the whole they are not popular. A moderate Reformist government arises in Spain, and though they have a solid voting bloc in Italy, they lack control of that government.

In Quebec the Emperor Henri is a Reformist, and begins to take measures to build the Quebecois Government in a Reformist manner.

America is the home of several distinct political factions that seem limited to them and to the UPF, the Republican movement is born here, though its culmination will be found in de Tocqueville’s Republic, and the Federalist movement which strongly emphasizes Jeffersonian Regional Sovereignty. Reformism never really catches on in America.

The first alliance is made between Quebec and Germany, Henri is a bit of a Germano-phile and he signs the Treaty of Toronto with them, the Russians, Spanish, Italians and a handful of smaller Reformist nations join the alliance and they support Reformist Rebels in China.

One good alliance deserves another and with the goal of mutual protection the Prussians and the British join with the Netherlands and Portugal, both traditional British allies on the continent in the ‘Entente’ for mutual defense, pressured by Reformist and pro-Reformist neighbors the United Provinces of France joins the Entente.

The Year is 1881 and the world is divided along ideological lines, Conservative nations face off against the Reformists and tension mounts. And in a new world, one of dirigibles and Gatling guns, conflict could take ona whole new face.

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OOC: I don’t do a timeline with any end in mind, I just look at the causes, never going for any particular effect, when I saw that I had managed to get France Britain and Prussia in an alliance together though, I had to smile. I’ll put up a mappa to go with this one. If this ever became a game it would probably have to be a heavily reformed SNES (with, yes, numbered divisions instead of army sizes and some sort of new economic system rather than the classical one that I like, but whose unrealism I admit).

Criticism and Praise expected below.

 

[SKILORD]

The Map that corresponds to my above AH

 

[Insane_Panda]

Love the timeline. Although if you were to make a NES on it I would regretablly not be able to join, most likely. The map looks a bit odd though, south america seems too different from the other continents, and the lakes would look better if they were the same color. If you ever need a map for your NES, just ask me, and I could help.

 

[SKILORD]

The mappa.

(I forgot to do S. America, btw, but there aren't many nations there, mostly colonies)

The mappa is from one of the originals and its a mappa that, at this point everyone hates. If I ever made an NES outta that TL I would get a different map for it. However as I can't really draw borders well I used the old one because it had borders on it and I didn't have to draw as much.

 

[SKILORD]

If that ever became an NES, btw, it would be a while. Quite a while.

 

[das]

A superb timeline/scenario indeed. Glad that I'm not the only one posting those here...

Czarina (or, rather, Empress) Elizabeth died from old age, so it is quite possible for her to live longer. I don't know about Russia gaining parts of Germany, mostly they wanted to make sure that Prussia doesn't threaten the balance of power... But they could take Eastern Prussia, and set up puppet states like in Poland in Bradenburg.

Pugachev almost died in a war against the Turks.

I somehow miss how did Britain get all of India of the map, since France seems to hold Bombay.

 

[das]

Oh, and one final thing. It is more likely that pre-Nicholas II Russian parliament would be called Senate (in fact, there WAS a Senate under Peter I, powerless though it was) rather then Duma. But that's just completely insignificant and miscelannous information.

 

[das]

One final thing - I'm pretty good at maps. Not that I could draw any blank world maps, but I have a lot of experience of, well, drawing borders.

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Btw, I had somewhere a very good timeline about Corsica being sold to Savoy and Napoleon uniting Italy and making it a great power (France-level) as a result (it also involved Suvorov leading coalition forces into Southern France through Switzerland (don't say that its impossible - historically, Suvorov fought his way out of Italy through Switzerland, so its quite plausible) and eventually leading to peace in France on conditions of constitutional monarchy). A shame I can't find it anywhere recently.

Another good timeline I had was about succesful Decembrist uprising in St. Petersburg 1825. It would've made a great NES. If I ever find any of those two I will probably post them here.

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Here's a minor scenario, well, more of a speculation that I might take further if you wish.

As of 1520, Spain was a potential powerhouse of Europe, having joined the Hapsburgs and expanded hold to the Low Countries. It also controlled large parts of Italy and arguably was the strongest naval power in Western Mediterranean. It also controlled much of the West Indies, and Hernan Cortez already begun his expedition into Mexico. In our history, Spanish Empire was being built there. Slowly, it would be weakened from then on, but only in 19th century did that empire fully fall, and even then, Spain has survived as a nation, insignificant as it might be.

But in the year 1520, there was a chance for Spain being ruined altogether. It was, at that time, in a situation comparable - if not worse - then the one France was in in 1789. It had rising inflation, was rather overstretched and ruled by a foreigner who didn't even speak Spanish. And just as that foreigner, Charles I, departed to Germany to be crowned Charles V of the Holy Roman Empire, his chancellor demanded from the Cortes - regional parliaments of sorts - that they lend more money to the crown - despite failing to repay the previous loans. Through bribery, he persuaded a majority to vote for lending the money. Soon after word of this spred, angry mobs attacked the houses of delegates throughout Castille. Soon enough, the towns across Castille have formed a revolutionary government, headed by Juan de Padilla. Large parts of Spanish army in the region did not act, especially as the nobles weren't too happy with the king neither. After failing to get a more suitable candidate as a replacement king, some even proposed a republic (perhaps something like the United Provinces of Netherlands). Only after the more radical faction triumphed in the revolutionary Junta did the nobles act. Historically, they crushed the uprising.

But suppose the Communeros had, by some accident, gotten a brilliant general in their ranks who in our history, say, died young in the Italian Wars. Lets call him Martin de Alvarez. He manages to reorganize the Communeros forces after the loss of Tordesillas, reinforces Padilla when Charles returns with an army, and manages to avoid any crushing defeats. Charles V reconsolidates control over Aragon, but in Castille, a brutal guerrila campaign is being waged. Having utilized traditional Castillian nationalism, Alvarez bled the royal armies white and by 1524, marches triumphantly into Madrid. Charles V is forced to accept a humiliating peace treaty, abdicating as a king of Castille (but keeping Navarre, Aragon, lands in Italy and Low Countries). United Provinces of Castille are declared (much like Netherlands indeed - a confederation of cities and provinces surrounding them, with a parliament - Cortes of Castille - in Madrid), disturbing many nobles and kings around Europe. But they do not act against it, being more concerned with making sure that nothing similar happens in THEIR nation.

But that's not the only effect of Martin de Alvarez's survival (and existance in the first place). As of 1521, Cortez was in control of Mexico. However, the governor of Cuba looked to undermine Cortez, stating that he seeks to become a king all by himself. Charles V, risking the loss of a large part of Spain, couldn't care less, and the governor - Velasquez - decided to take care of this himself. Long story cut short, he was defeated by Cortez and his Tlaxcallan allies, and Cortez decided that the king has abandoned him. Thus, he undermined all hopes for a Spanish Empire across the ocean, crowning himself King of Mexico. His newfound empire consisted of a primarily native population with a Spanish/Hispannized ruling elite. Christianity spred well amongst the Aztecs with time, but there were no forced conversions. Essentially, it was just the Aztec Empire, but bigger, stronger, with a new dynasty and a new religion.

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Should I continue this?

 

[SKILORD]

I somehow miss how did Britain get all of India of the map, since France seems to hold Bombay.

The French revolution screwed up the French colonies and Britain nabbed Bombay and the rest, Quebec objected but the entire situation was already confused enough that they and the French both realized that they were in little position to stop them.

 

[SKILORD]

That's a nice Timeline, das, I like it.

 

[SKILORD]

Oh, BTW, Xen, there was no predetermined historical destiny for Italy to rise up to dominate the Med, as you seem to think. It was a combination of luck and skill that brought the Romans to power, luck especially. There is not reason to think that it might have gone on with no Rome at all.

That really depends a lot on what you feel contributes to history. It is easy to see history from only the perspective of the actions of the great and the victories of the armies. There are other factors, many other factors.

Take, for instance, geography. People who believe strongly that geography is destiny will tell you that European geography destined them to do and to value certain things. Individual Liberty arose primarily in Europe, in fact it arose almost exclusively in Europe, with its forests and its mountains separating everyone. These divisions also lead to intense nationalism in Europe, something that is not as exaggerated in, say, Asia or Africa. On this front the ROmans were quite advantaged, being isolated even further from much of Europe, certainly from the East, with the east coast of Italy being almost bereft of natural harbors. Italy also had a very advantageous climate, with the Alps keeping the warm air from leaving and producing a climate that was far more capable of agriculture.

Then there are the daily habits of the common man, Roman agricultural tradition fostered an almost puritain work ethic, and as this crumbled, so did the empire. Also the idea of the militia-farmers, the ancient minute men to draw a comparison between the most sucessful empire builder of the modern era and the Romans, added on to the idea of civic responsibility and the can-do spirit of Ancient Rome.

There are the governments, and Rome's was freeer than most, with the people taking responsibility and action instead, which has traditionally lead to success.

So one could say that Italy, with its particular geography, was destined to create an empire, one could say that the Romans were destined to be that Empire, these things are not so absurd to say at all.

 

[Goober]

I had a concept which I had been kicking around in my head for a little while, and I wanted to float it to you guys. It is probably gonna be controversial, but here goes: What if Jesus Christ was never crucified? How, if at all, would this affect the world today?

Some Scenarios that i thought of:

1 - No change. Christainity would still be one of the dominent religion, and the world would be much the same as today. Jesus would, well, "fade into the limelight", to use that old saying.

2 - Jesus Christ managed to gather enough forces to defeat the Romans, and create a sort of "Christain" Empire which would be primarily based in the Middle East, around Jerusalem, and be in Europe too, kinda like the pope, but stronger, and have serious disputes with Muslim empires.

3 - Jesus unifies the Muslim and Christain religions, and made one friggen huge Middle East Super-power. The USSR and the USA would be minor in comparison.

4 - Jesus gains control of modern-day Jerusalem from the Romans, and makes a small nation, beleugered by the Muslims, that eventually is attacked, and falls, and Chritainity becomes a minor religion, and the Muslim religion becomes the major religion, and maybe a different religion replaces Christainity?

Well? Whatddya guys think? is this idea worth pursuing? Do you like my ideas, should I keep thinking, any to suggest for yourself? Do you think taht this would be a popular topic, I realize that Jesus Christ not being cruficied might be a hard pill to swallow for those of you who are Christains. And I hope taht this is the right thread for this.

 

[fantasmo]

I like the idea of 4, except if you left the little Jesus-land there for people to play, and set it around that time.

 

[SKILORD]

I'd be willing to take this one further if you guys like it.

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In 1852 Franklin Pierce rose to the Presidency, it would be a difficult four years for him personally and for the nation as a whole. Pierce was a competent man, but the years ahead would begin the spiral towards the Civil War that waited a mere eight years from his inauguration. They needed a greater man.

He had been a dark horse candidate, nominated by the Democrats finally after the 49 ballots, and he had run against quite a proud cast of men. The party had been factionalized, and each faction vied desperately for their preferred candidates, it was unlikely that any of them would have succeeded in getting it, but let’s say that Sam Houston manages to wrangle it out of the party.

This makes the race a little closer, for Pierce it was a blowout, but the Whigs manage to put up a smallish fight before submitting to the Sam Houston Presidency.

President Houston was a fairly decent compromise, fiercely pro-union, a southerner, defensive of slavery in the south, opposite its expansion. The North doesn’t hate him, as it did Pierce, and he manages to get some significant work done.

In Spain Pierre Soule is not quite the figure he was in OTL, so he doesn’t work on the selling of Cuba, Sam manages to pull this off. He had always had plans for a protectorate over Mexico, and he manages to accomplish this as well. He becomes popular despite himself. The Kansas-Nebraska act is vetoed by Houston, he still likes the way that the Missouri compromise set it up and feels that the purchase of Cuba should be enough to make the South more secure.

Cuba and Guantanamo apply for statehood, both as slave states, both are accepted.

1856 comes and Sam barely recaptures the nomination, there remains some bitterness about the matter of the Kansas-Nebraska veto.

Sam is reelected, he runs virtually unopposed, as did Jimmie B. in OTL.

The second term is somewhat calm, secessionists seem to have calmed down quite a bit, but John Brown begins his abolitionist war in the Blue Ridge mountains, a guerilla slave insurrection as he originally planned in OTL instead of his Harpers Ferry shenanigan. This enrages the South and Sam Houston begins to take radical steps against it, sending several regiments of Federal troops into the Blue Ridge mountains, with his guerilla tactics and his massive slave support, Brown manages to survive.

In 1859, John Brown’s numbers have swelled and his campaigns grow ever more successful, he declares the state of Appalachia independent and applies for statehood as a free state, it is almost unanimously rejected. He continues his guerilla war with the slaves and the American Civil War can truly be said to begin in 1859.

Slave insurrections follow in South Carolina and Georgia, with far smaller ‘states,’ such as Spartanburg in Western South Carolina, Bartow in Northern Georgia, Juventud in Cuba (its actually a separate Island) and Wichita in Texas. All of these revolting guerilla factions are pledging allegiance to Appalachia.

Sam Houston is battling as fiercely as he can as his second term begins to fade, his popularity is waning and he does not win the nomination. We’ll say that James Buchanan does, he looses to John Bell and the Constitutional Union Party, Lincoln hardly registers on the national radar, though he carries Illinois.

Antislavery factions in Europe who want nothing more than to see the Union humbles cheer for the secessionists, and Brown’s guerilla army remains brutally effective, Wichita falls, and Bartow seems on the verge of collapse, but Spartanburg and Appalachia remain strong, with slaves feeding them men and the knowledge of the land helping much. Many a Cherokee reverses the trail of tears to join the insurrection. The Confederation of Free States is a fascinating nation, if it can pull everything together. Juventud is simply defiant, with suspicions of British or French assistance constantly worrying the Union. The slaves fail every time they leave the mountains and Lee is generally the one doing the crushing there, but as long as they stay in Appalachia they remain strong and not even Lee can dislodge them.

A French ship is caught off of Juventud in 1862, John Bell asks Congress for a declaration of war. Congress is pretty united on the issue, with relatively few true abolitionists in congress and even fewer who would support the rebellion. The United States declares war on France in response to their help of the rebellion.

Many a French ship is sunk, but the French land troops in Guantanemo, troops are diverted, slave riots break out across Cuba and it seems for a moment that the entire state will collapse and join the CFS.

With the diversion of troops and with massive support from so far as Texas, the CFS overruns North Carolina. Slaveholders flee or are executed.

The war drags on for a few more years but in 1867, John Bell, who won his second term relatively easily, gives a peace to France and the CFS. This is political suicide, the death toll was nearly a million though to the US and draft riots filled the North. What remains of South Carolina and Georgia secede, Florida and Mississippi join them. They form the Confederate States of America.

Constitutional Unionist Party remains somewhat strong in the North, but they loose several elections to the Democrats after the humbling peace and the unopposed secession.

The French are rather arrogant after their supposed ‘triumph’ in America, but the Germans rid them of this in 1870.

The Constitutional Unionist Party changes its name to the Constitutional Party around 1891, the next time they win an election is 1900, when William Jennings Bryan runs for them.

The CFS, which is a compilation of the states of Appalachia, Spartanburg, Bartow, Juventud (which includes parts of Cuba proper), Piedmont, and Beaufort is a compilation of white abolitionists, Native Americans, freed slaves, it is an almost direct democracy and is notably less successful economically than the Union. They remain allied with France. The Union (slavery-less with the secession of the CSA) begins allying itself closely with Britain.

Friedrich III’s cancer is not misdiagnosed and his surgery is done, he survives continues to reign into 1905. Unfortunately Wilhelm II had recently died after being flung from his horse, breaking his back. The heir apparent is Wilhelm III, tediously young and frightened. Friedrich had liberalized Germany much, thanks to the influence of his wife and had worked for peace with Bismarck and later with the slightly less competent Hollweg. They had already incurred the wrath of the generals and the other elite of Germany, and the new Kaiser is more than willing to let the parliament rule. A few attempts are made on his life and he nearly miraculously survives. He brings Germany closer to Britain and makes it progressively more liberal, the elite are furious, but don’t want to openly move.

The CFS is tied closely with France and their Russian and Italian allies.

The CSA is a fiercely isolationist nation.

After a final attempt on his life the Kaiser begins a campaign of assassinating the extreme conservative elements, he is far more successful than they had been against him. He manages to bring the elite under control through the use of fear. The elite view him as a tyrant, the people as a liberator.

He is murdered in 1916 by Max Baur. Kuno von Westarp begins to move towards seizing power with the support of the radical right, the people revolt in the face of the coup and Tsar Nicholas decides to support him. Britain supports the left wing Germans, France is tied up, not wanting to support the right wing germans, but stuck in that position by Russia, they decide to support the Russians anyways. War is declared over the matter.

 

[SKILORD]

I stopped doing preChristian POD's because I consider them uncomfortable as a Christian.

There are other major problems with your timeline, goob, let's start with the fact that the Muslim religion did not come along until hundreds of years after Christ had been executed. You shouldn't have trouble with that.

Let's go on to the fact that Jesus Christ was the most pacifistic entity ever to inhabit human form. He was not about to start a war religion, as you have him do.

I have a counter, though. I almost once wrote a story about a false messiah that was what the Jews wanted coming around the time of Jesus's execution and being the sort of Messiah that the Jews wanted. He is a Zionist and gets independence from Rome, he has much support from the locals and executes Jesus and persecutes his followers, many of whom flee to Rome where Christianity becomes popular.

The false Messiah dies, which causes much discomfort for his followers who had thought he would be immortal, but they maintain his line and his religion, which is millitaristic and conversion seeking (much like the Mohhamed's Judaism in Das's new NES) and they win much support in the Mideast and build such an empire.

 

[fantasmo]

I like your big extensive timeline. I command you to map it!

 

[das]

Perhaps, perhaps... But IMHO, no crucifiction=no Christianity. And I already posted a "no Christianity" scenario somewhere in this thread...

As for Italy... Taking all those considerations, the ideal spot for a Mediterranean empire would've been Sicily. Didn't work. But suppose it did? For example, suppose Persians overrun Greece. Much like Phoeniceans, Greeks start to flee to their colony - Syracuse, stimulating its rise as a dominant power in Sicily. Soon after it becomes involved in Italy, pitting off various tribes against each other to assist Greek colonies such as Neapolis. Thus, Syracusean Empire comes to control Massila, southern and western Italy. Rest of Italy is rule by Samnites. Syracuse is likely to fight many naval wars with Carthage, triumphing in the end and forming a Western Mediterranean power which will wage numerous brutal and bloody wars against the Persian Empire. How's that?

Now, more on the Communeros timeline.

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But that wasn't all yet for Charles V. Indeed, the Hapsburgs are not lucky in this timeline, for soon after they lost Castille (and West Indies, annexed by Cortez soon after) they quickly had to face Charles V's sworn enemy - Francis I. Charles V was eager to rebuild the Burgundian empire of his great grandfather, Charles the Bold, while Francis felt that he had a legitimate claim on Lombardy. Charles V decided to fight the French back, but his army was still damaged and he lost a very large manpower source. By the time of the arrival of what troops Charles COULD assemble, Pavia (in northern Italy) and its 6000-men garrison succumbed to the French siege (thus the French had by then full control over Lombardy and Genoa) and Francis' troops managed to intercept the Hapsburg army. Though the French cavalry was quickly rooted by Swiss mercenaries and arquebusier fire, the French infantry managed to crush the Hapsburg forces eventually, something that Francis attributed to his military genius. Soon after, French managed to raise more troops and pursue the Hapsburg forces all the way to Naples where they were defeated again. Charles V agreed to a peace treaty soon after, abandoning Lombardy and the Two Sicilies to France. The French forces were also occupying Catalonia, and Charles had to give France Franche Comte (territory in Burgundy) in exchange for keeping that one of his few remaining lands.

So that left Francis I Valois, Absolute Monarchy personified and the inventor of the key phrase "because it pleases me so", in charge of an increasingly powerful empire in Western Europe - something that disturbed greatly many people. Pope Clement VII was not one of them - like so often in our history, he switched sides and allied with Francis I. UPC (United Provinces of Castille), Portugal and England formed the Alliance of Lisbon to counter the French in the west. The Hapsburgs were often seen as a lost cause, and the UPC leadership really did not like Charles V. England did keep an alliance with the Hapsburgs (as did Venice and Poland-Lithuania), though Charles V's Burgundian ambitions, meanwhile, were utterly crushed... but that was not the last of his troubles. Far from it.

In 1526, just as the fighting was about to end in Italy, the Ottomans utterly crushed Hungary, keeping a large part of it and giving some of it to a vassal ruler in Transylvannia. Hapsburg Austrians tried to grab a piece of it, but the Ottomans knew that they were weakened, and so marched on to besiege Vienna. Only when Charles V returned, and an army of Christian German princes begun gathering, the Ottomans "agreed" to withdraw, taking all of Austrian-claimed territories in Hungary. Thus the Holy Roman Empire was really not in the shape to deal with Schmalkaldik League of Protestant North German princes, which with time begun to transform into a Protestant feudal commonwealth. Charles V's rule is commonly accepted by all historians of this world as disastrous, and it is believed that he had ruined a potential Hapsburg empire.

Much of Europe as of now does not know much about the New World, and, well, most people don't seem to care. Apart from, perhaps, Portugal... and England. And, though it isn't Europe, Mexico...

The rest of the 16th century in Europe passed with much religious strife and many inconclusive wars between Protestants and Catholics in Germany. Charles V's empire further deteriorated with the Dutch rebelling and grabbing all of Netherlands (ceding Artois to France in exchange for French support but soon wandering away from the French). Religious changes were pretty much like in real history, only with somehow stronger Huguenots in France. Francis I's victories left him without meaningful allies (well, maybe Denmark-Norway... but does it matter?). Valois dynasty is actually in a worse situation, as Francis I is even more confident in himself, while France is becoming overstretched.

One of the perhaps not-so-obvious (at first) profiters from the collapse of the Hapsburg Empire is Sigismund the Old of Poland-Lithuania. The Austrian defeat in Hungary allowed him to gain Bohemia, previously ruled by his nephew the king of Hungary and for a while claimed by Austria. And when the Ottomans besieged and took Vienna in 1579, Poland-Lithuania managed to defeat the Ottomans in Bohemia, thus taking much fame and glory... and a chance for a conquest of Hungary later on.

Charles V had to concentrate on Aragon from thereon. The obvious way to go from there was conquest of North Africa, and so the Aragonese started with conquest of Morocco and consolidation of the old Spanish forts on North African coast.

 

[SKILORD]

I like your big extensive timeline. I command you to map it!

I presume that you mean the Sam Houston Presidency POD, and I'll take a shot at it, though my map wielding skills are less than humble.

 

[Goober]

Hmm . . . yes, my ideas will require some more cultivation. Him fading into the limelight might be interesting, and it might be realistic too. At that time, well, there was a lots of people with strong ideas.

And I just got another evil idea, what if Jesus faaded into the limelight, but God appoints another Lord on Earth, say, the current Roman Emperor? Or somebody equally as powerful, and perhaps a little militarisitc to make things intersting.

 

[SKILORD]

The idea of 'appointing' someone to be God's Son and also the title 'Lord on Earth' (I remember Christ specifically saying, rather, that his kingdom was not on earth) and the idea of it being a person in power all fail pretty solidly as compromises to make it a little less heretical, if that's what it was intended as. If it wasn't, :shug:, well I'm trying to be tolerant here and not go berserk over what is basically the slandering of God and Christ.

:sigh: Peace, man.