Alternate History Question: What if the Soviet Union won the Cold War?

[Bifrost]

That was a democratic government: or you think that in democratic society there can never be any conflicts between prime-minister and commander in chief?


PS:

Rzeczpospolita Polska Ludowa

its writeen like Rzeczepospolita, or its my mistake?; how did you know that LUDOWA is something about "people?" Actually In Rzeczepospolita there were elections. Isnt it a sign of a democratic society?( Although it was monarchy)

 

[Vrylakas]

Bifrost wrote:

That was a democratic government: or you think that in democratic society there can never be any conflicts between prime-minister and commander in chief?

Democracy has little to do with the relationship between a prime minister and commander-in-chief; it is about the level of participation of the governed in government. We will never know if the Kerensky government would have become democratic had it survived, but as it stood until November 1917 there was nil input from the Russian population in their government. Ironically, the only people in the Kerensky government who actually had been elected by anyone were the ones in the soviet who held anti-democratic political beliefs. That Kerensky ignored Russia's war wariness and vainly attempted to keep Russia in the war shows how little in touch with the average person in his country he was, and while undeserved his end is not shocking.

PS:
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Rzeczpospolita Polska Ludowa
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its writeen like Rzeczepospolita, or its my mistake?

Sluchaj - ja jestem Polakiem. Myslalem, ze to jest oczywiste... Czy rozumiesz po-polsku?

"Rzeczpospolita" is the correct spelling. Officially it is translated as "Republic" but it is usually only used to describe Poland and is probably best translated as "Commonwealth". (The Lithuanians call it "Zecpospolitas".) I know the Russians and Eastern Slavs in general use this term to refer to the old 1330-1795 Republic, but it is still the official name of Poland today [Rzeczpospolita Polska]. If I'm not wrong the Polish "rzecz" = the Russian "rech" (English phonetics).

how did you know that LUDOWA is something about "people?"

I've got lots of identity cards with that lovely name on them. I went out of my way in Warsaw in 1989 to buy a passport cover without the communist "Ludowa" on it from an illegal street vendor, and the pre-war crowned Polish eagle as well. I'm no royalist but that was the symbol of 50 years every Pole would rather forget. Also, as a student in Hungary I rejoiced when around 1991 or so, when I renewed my residency visa they dropped off the "Peoples" so "Magyar Népköztársaság" became "Magyar Köztársaság". A small victory, but a happy one nonetheless.

I was in a market in my university town in Hungary when I played the Good samaritan to a couple Russian soldiers who were trying to buy something unsuccessfully (Russians were like Americans; neither likes to learn foreign languages) and they told me they were glad to see a Hungarian try to speak Russian. (My Russian has never been great.) I answered them in Polish that we had to learn Russian... The stalls they were shopping in were covered in the pre-communist Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen/István emblems, but I'm not sure they understood the meaning.

Actually In Rzeczepospolita there were elections. Isnt it a sign of a democratic society?( Although it was monarchy)

In the old Rzeczpospolita there were indeed elections and the parliament (Sejm) was powerful, but along the usual feudal lines. There is a long list of Polish kings - from Jagiello to Stefan Bathory to Sobieski - who complained about how every other king in Europe could do what they wanted but they had to convince the damned szlachta in parliament first. Poland stayed out of the Thirty Years War because the szlachta said "No!", and the parliament forced strongly pro-Catholic Polish kings to accept Protestants as equals in the Republic. In 1600 the Bourbons ruled France by divine right, but the Vazas (Catholic Swedish line) were elected to the Polish throne by the Polish parliament. The combined Poland-Lithuanian Republic had by far the largest nobility in Europe (10% of the population, compared to 2-3% in England and France), and through a strange twist of French, Hungarian, Lithuanian and Polish history in the 14th century the Polish parliament's powers were expanded beyond anything in Europe at the time. Every single nobleman, from the wealthiest magnate to the poorest impoverished gentleman, had a right to vote in the parliament and royal elections. During the next two centuries this became a great strength for Poland-Lithuania but it became abused by the 16th and 17th centuries and weakened the country so much that it couldn't withstand the Russian and Prussian advances. By the 18th century Polish kings were weak and appointed (a là Theodocius and Alaric in Rome) through powerful and corrupt nobles. When Poland tried to reform this system in 1791 by adopting a constitution based on the American one, well, things didn't turn out so well...

But I wouldn't call this Polish parliamentarianism "democracy"; for while it had the largest "franchise" in Europe at the time it still excluded 90% of the population. Except for a brief period from 1918-1926 and the pseudo-democracy under Pilsudski (where free elections were held and opposition parties could take part but they were generally ignored), Poland's experience with democracy is pretty much brand new and the country shows the signs of an immature but growing democracy; rancid public debates, thousands of political parties, all groups claiming to derive from some mystical earlier "starapolska", petty corruption, bickering, parliamentary deadlock. But with all that progress has been made, and I am confident that like Germany and Japan, Poland will also be a healthy democratic country.

 

[u-gene]

Sluchaj - ja jestem Polakiem. Myslalem, ze to jest oczywiste... Czy rozumiesz po-polsku?

I can understand Polish! Wow! Actually, I always wondered how Poles easily understood what I was telling them, while I did not grasp a word from what they were saying to me (they spoke Polish, of course). But if you say you had to learn Russian, that explains a lot.

 

[Vrylakas]

U-Gene wrote:

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Sluchaj - ja jestem Polakiem. Myslalem, ze to jest oczywiste... Czy rozumiesz po-polsku?
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I can understand Polish! Wow! Actually, I always wondered how Poles easily understood what I was telling them, while I did not grasp a word from what they were saying to me (they spoke Polish, of course).

Yes, it is always relatively easy for Poles and Russians to understand one another....when they want to.... There's a story that sometime before WW I Stalin was accompanying Lenin on a secret trip to Vienna (one of Stalin's few trips outside Russia) and they had stopped at a small restaurant in Poland. Stalin became furious when the Polish waiters seemingly refused to understand him, although he could make out the basic idea of what they were saying. Lenin (the more experienced traveler and someone used to dealing with Poles) apparently thought this was hysterical, but Stalin was angry for days afterwards about the incident.

But if you say you had to learn Russian, that explains a lot.

Even forgetting the political aspects of my Russian education, we were taught things that one usually didn't learn in a language class. We learned metallurgical terms, industrial terms, and Soviet economic terms. A common saying among my fellow students was that they could talk about industry in Magnitogorsk or mining in Dnjepropetrovsk but couldn't order a glass of water in a Russian restaurant. A Hungarian friend who was studying both Polish and Russian said Russian grammar is easier than Polish. Despite politics I do like Russian, and in fact my wife - who attended school after Russian was no longer manditory - speaks it fairly well.

Here BTW are two quizzes on Polish and Russian history I created a long while ago. Tell me what you think...

 

[Bifrost]

Ja rozumiju polsku(a bit, but I cant write correctly - just read).
Wow! I love poland, my favourite writer is Sienkiewich

Actually I can easily speak Ukrainian so understanding Polish is not a problem.

Originally posted by Vrylakas
But I wouldn't call this Polish parliamentarianism "democracy"; for while it had the largest "franchise" in Europe at the time it still excluded 90% of the population. Except for a brief period from 1918-1926 and the pseudo-democracy under Pilsudski (where free elections were held and opposition parties could take part but they were generally ignored), Poland's experience with democracy is pretty much brand new and the country shows the signs of an immature but growing democracy; rancid public debates, thousands of political parties, all groups claiming to derive from some mystical earlier "starapolska", petty corruption, bickering, parliamentary deadlock. But with all that progress has been made, and I am confident that like Germany and Japan, Poland will also be a healthy democratic country.

This is not a democracy? Maybe for the USA or Europe, But for Russian Empire - I think I would be better to have feodalistic seim or duma than to have none of them.

By the way, Ive always wondered whether it is easy for you to understand Lithuanians?

PS: u-gene , the previous posting was for me to answer, no ne rasstraivaisia, ia tak uzh i byt' tebia proshaju

 

[cgannon64]

For all these people who say that Communism would take over the world if the US fell in 89...that probably wouldn't happen. The collapse of the US wouldn't result in the worldwide collapse of democracy. Sure, alot of countries would switch over to communism (an exact oppisite of what really happened), but a few countries would survive and stay democratic, like Cuba and China today.

And for all the people who say the USSR survived on its ICBMs, you are totally wrong. The USSR survived on its LIES about its ICBMs. When the first American spy satellite was put up, the first thing they did was count the Russian ICBMs. The result: US-about 5000 USSR-about 300. If a true nuclear war started, the USSR would have been nuked to the ground---which is why Khrushchev was so hesitant in the missile crisis---a US-Soviet war would probably result in a US victory.

Back to the point---if the United States collapsed, and the Soviet Union survived...it's a very tough call. Yes, Communism would have spread---but it definetely wouldn't have been George Orwell's 1984.

The circumstances for a US collapse would be hard---I don't think another Great Depression followed by forest fires would do it. What would've collapsed the US? Maybe a Great Depression, mixed in with another Vietnam, followed by Soviet propaganda and the rise of the communist party in the US. However, I don't think that the US government would go quietly into the night.

Sorry, I don't fit the critera for posting---I have nothing to do with the Soviet Union, Russia, or communism---I just have a thing for the cold war.

 

[Vrylakas]

Bifrost wrote:

Ja rozumiju polsku(a bit, but I cant write correctly - just read).
Wow! I love poland, my favourite writer is Sienkiewich

Znam tez troche rosyski. Polish is a hard language for foreignors, I understand. A Hungarian friend I had taken back to Kraków once said while we were waiting for the waluta office to open "Just look at all those blond heads, filled with all those consonants..."

A Russian who loves Poland? Have they elected an Arab Pope too?

Just kidding. For two nations who haven't gotten along so well, we do have a lot in common.

Actually I can easily speak Ukrainian so understanding Polish is not a problem.

Yes, especially western Ukrainian. I used to work with a Ukrainian from Lwów/Lviv who used to call me "Ljahy" as a joke.

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Originally posted by Vrylakas
But I wouldn't call this Polish parliamentarianism "democracy"; [...]
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This is not a democracy? Maybe for the USA or Europe, But for Russian Empire - I think I would be better to have feodalistic seim or duma than to have none of them.

"The one-eyed man is king in the valley of the blind." We're all in the same boat now though.

By the way, Ive always wondered whether it is easy for you to understand Lithuanians?

Not at all. Lithuanian is a Baltic language related to Latvian, and has nothing to do with the Slavic languages. Linguists like to study Lithuanian because it has retained the most features from the old Indo-European languages, and is relatively isolated from other language influences. If you've ever seen Lithuanian written (like on a newspaper), it's amazing - it fills up the whole page with diacritic marks! They must use 2x the ink of anyone else! But it is a pretty language, and I someday will take a stab at learning it. At the moment I only know (from history reading) Lithuanian place names like Zalgiris, Nemunas, Lenkija, etc.

And sadly, despite a long combined history together, Polish and Lithuanian relations in the 20th century were ruined by nationalists on both sides, so that still today we barely get along. My own family is from Wilno/Vilnius; they were deported along with 2 million other Poles after WW II from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine (as some 10 million Germans were deported from Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia).

 

[u-gene]

When the first American spy satellite was put up, the first thing they did was count the Russian ICBMs. The result: US-about 5000 USSR-about 300. If a true nuclear war started, the USSR would have been nuked to the ground---which is why Khrushchev was so hesitant in the missile crisis---a US-Soviet war would probably result in a US victory.

Y'know I can agree or disagree with the figures you mentioned. But undoubtedly a nuclear war is somewhat different from all the wars the Earth's ever seen. I've heard a lot of times that ICBMs are counted in terms of how many times they could destroy the planet and everything on it. And I don't think it's a great difference whether USSR or USA were capable of doing it 10 times or 100 times. 1 time is more than enough, isn't it? And a matter of lies is VERY VERY questionable.

Here BTW are two quizzes on Polish and Russian history I created a long while ago. Tell me what you think...

Well, it's great. Some questions puzzled me, though I was supposed to know these things well. Still some of them are being discussed amidst historians and as far as I know there're not right answers to them (especially as far as ancient era and middle ages are concerned). Anyway, thanks for good quizzes.

PS: u-gene , the previous posting was for me to answer, no ne rasstraivaisia, ia tak uzh i byt' tebia proshaju

Well, it's not my fault. You seem to get in the forum in the evening, while I'm usually here in the afternoon. So I can't wait for my turn to answer the question, since it'd take too long. Ochen' rad, chto ty menya prostil. A to ya tak perezhival....

 

[Bifrost]

Yes, especially western Ukrainian. I used to work with a Ukrainian from Lwów/Lviv who used to call me "Ljahy" as a joke.

Oh those poor Ukrainians someone always offends them. Behind our backs they call you "Ljahy", us - "Katsapy" or "Moscali" . Now the Idea of nationalism is widely spread in western Ukrainian provinces, but in Eastern - quite reverse - pro-Russian ideas. Looks Like Ukraine can divide itself on 'right-bank' and 'left-bank' and then ... We'll start recreating Russian Empire and Rzeczpospolita?

Not at all. Lithuanian is a Baltic language related to Latvian, and has nothing to do with the Slavic languages. Linguists like to study Lithuanian because it has retained the most features from the old Indo-European languages, and is relatively isolated from other language influences.

Oh its a pity you cant. I know all the aspects of the language group they belong to , but theory is one thing and practix - another. I just wanted to understand how close baltic group was to slavic (slavian) group, because I'm now working on a historical problem of Kaliningrad and I'm trying to understand: The native Prussians were closer by their language to slavians or Germans? (They belonged to Baltic group either) So the question is the Baltic group is closer to grman or slavic?

 

[Vrylakas]

Bifrost napisal:

Oh its a pity you cant. I know all the aspects of the language group they belong to , but theory is one thing and practix - another. I just wanted to understand how close baltic group was to slavic (slavian) group, because I'm now working on a historical problem of Kaliningrad and I'm trying to understand: The native Prussians were closer by their language to slavians or Germans? (They belonged to Baltic group either) So the question is the Baltic group is closer to grman or slavic?

Neither really. The ancient Prussians were definitely a Baltic-speaking people. When St. Olbracht (Adalbert) wandered into Prussian territory to convert them, he carried Biblical translations in a Baltic language. They may have had some influence from the old Venedii, that strange group about which we know so little but who seemed to have been very helpful to the early Baltic and Slavic peoples. I have a theory though it is completely unsubstantiated that the Prussians derived their name from the Slavic po-Rusy, that this name was applied to the coastal regions and the people who lived there eventually assumed it. I suspect the Rus refered not to modern Russians but the Nordic peoples to the north and east of the Slavic lands (at the time). I'm sure you're well aware of Konrad Mazowiecki's (Conrad of Mazovia's) bringing the Krzyzacy into Prusy, to halt the pagan Prussian attacks against Mazowsze...

It is difficult to say whether the Baltic languages are closer to Slavic or the Germanic languages; all three formed the last major language group to split up within the European branch of the Indo-European languages. We're all related... Modern Lithuanian has many Polish terms because it borrowed a lot of political and church-related vocabulary when Lithuania converted to Christianity through Poland, but this is quite normal and one can't take a lexicon at face value. Modern Polish also has a huge medieval Czech vocabulary because Poland in turn received its first knowledge of Europe and Christianity through 10th century Bohemia. Modern Hungarian, a Finno-Ugric language, is also loaded with Slavic borrow words but it is definitely not a Slavic language...

I do have a Lithuanian travel book, so to prove for you that it has little in common with us linguistically:

Mano vardas yra... (Mjenja zavut'...)
Kiek jums metu? (S'kolka ljet?)
Ar mane suprantate? (Vy ponimajetje?)

The numbers do show some similarity to Slavic numbers, but I suspect this is from their common origins rather than a particular connection between the two.

1. vienas 2. du
3. trys 4. keturi
5. penki 6. sesi
7. septyni 8. astuoni
9. devyni 10.desimt
100. simtas 1000.tukstantis

Have you ever read Adam Mickiewicz's verrrrrryyy long poem from I think the 1840s, Pan Tadeusz, a poem that every Polish kid has to read in school? The opening lines are famous and everyone can remember it by heart:

"Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jestes jak zdrowie..."

(Lithuania, My Homeland! You are like my own health to me!)

 

[Bifrost]

Have you ever read Adam Mickiewicz's verrrrrryyy long poem from I think the 1840s, Pan Tadeusz, a poem that every Polish kid has to read in school? The opening lines are famous and everyone can remember it by heart:
"Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jestes jak zdrowie..."

(Lithuania, My Homeland! You are like my own health to me!)

Thankyou for (.....), but I've understood everything before I read the translation. I didnt even know that sometimes Polish is SO easy to understand

An example with numbers impressed me ! But You're right , the numbers are alike each other in many languges.
I didnt read anything by Mickiewicz , but I will.

Thankyou for help. The thing I really needed is opinion of someone who would be closer to former Prussia.
Thankyou once more.

 

[Propaganda]

Well, this is an interesting what-if, to say the least.

First off, I'd like to say I favor Communism. It has the potential to be the BEST system, both economically and politically, but it needs tweaking and restructuring, and no, by restructuring, I don't mean Gorbachev's perestroika.

Now, if American capitalism crumbled, it would spell collapse for many other countries as well, mainly those in Europe. This would bring the USSR to a favorable position. It would no longer need to tighten up on military, since it has no more opponents to duke it out with, military-wise. It would lax itself, and put the money into economy, which would benefit MANY people. With that, we could have seen a Communist rebirth, with emphasis on economy and standard of living. And quite possibly, a 'world revolution' as Trotsky and Lenin invisioned.

Ah, the days of stability. How I miss them.

 

[gr8ful wes]

I thought that they did win, and because they were such good sports, we gave them capitalism.

Actually, The whole Idea of the cold war is very puzzling. It reminds me of the long moments of staring, and intimidation before two sumo wrestlers actually engage.

 

[Switch625]

Originally posted by gr8ful wes
I thought that they did win, and because they were such good sports, we gave them capitalism.

Actually, The whole Idea of the cold war is very puzzling. It reminds me of the long moments of staring, and intimidation before two sumo wrestlers actually engage.

That's a pretty darned good analogy! I'll have to remember that.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Communism has the potential to become powerful economically? Hahah. You my friend, are sorely mistaken. I am a communist. Let me explain how it works.



First of all, Communism is not a government, it is a society. Simply because the whole point of communism is to not have a government. There are no rulers in a communism. There is no economy in a communism either. Everything is free and everyone works to better their community.

Sounds like an impossible system to implement eh? Well, it's near impossible. A communist revolution of this type could only occur if every country on earth became a communist society and people weren't greedy. It could happen, but won't.

We all like to refer to the USSR, China, or Cuba as communisms, but they aren't. Those three countries were or are DICTATORIALSHIPS.

You've seem to confused a Socialism Government with a Communist society. They are two very distinct things.

BTW, this is why I hate the Communism in Civ III. It's inaccurate and should not be named Communism, but rather Despotism.

 

[Propaganda]

By Communism, I was going by the Western interpretation, which, in truth, is State Socialism. Even this, however, is a powerful state of government, especially with the right person pushing it. As a defense to this system, I'll just point you to de-classified CIA documents, which entail Soviet military power in detail. This Socialized State was able to outproduce NATO!, and documents prove this. Even with the ammount of money that went into imports, military strength, etc., they were still able to provide for their citizens, giving them shelter, food, health care and education, which, I FEEL, is extraordinary. IMO, if America hadn't received support from Europe and Latin America, it would have never been able to outproduce, and outdo the Soviet Union, militarilly and intellegence-wise.

However, you are correct that Communism is not a government, but rather a society working to "do better" for one another. Its roots lie in the Paris Commune model, the first few years of Mao Zedong's leadership after the Chinese revolution, and a small bit in the Russian revolution, during it's blossoming beginning. One of these has proved that Communism does work, which was the Paris Commune, showing that the majority can take over AND actually coordinate themselves, by working with one another. It is STILL possible to have a Communist utopia, however, it needs to be given time to work and set itself.

Hopefully, it happens.

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by Bifrost
How can you compare Russian and English humour?!!!
The most part of our humour is"black humour"

My favorite: There will be a new Russian game show, "Bowling for Food." Yakhov Smirnov

Americans find both Russian and English humor incomprehensible at times. A marine of my aquaintance said he knew he had been in the BI (British Isles) to long when he knew why the blokes were laughing. It is a comment on American cinema that they took "The Brothers Karamozov" and made it into a love story.

Perhaps I should mention that one of my wife's ambitions is to visit Dostoyevsky's grave. Personally I prefer Gogol, where I can take the superficial charm and ignore the depth. I read trash science fiction and Tom Clancy and admit to it.

J