Alternate History Thread II...

[North King]

Looks good, don't worry about starting it a day late. It's when you lag into weeks that you start to arouse anger.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Looks good, don't worry about starting it a day late. It's when you lag into weeks that you start to arouse anger.

Nah I'm perfectly serene about the lateness ...its the competing with das's NES that worries me - will anyone notice this one ?

 

[North King]

I've got my nation pegged for both, personally!

 

[das]

Ironically, though, this actually worked in the favor of the Khazars in a way; the defeated remains of the Western Khazars were too weak to prevent reunification under a new, reinvigorated Khazar khaganate.

Btw, what happened to the Magyars? They still were with the Khazars at the moment, and I could easily see them being in the vanguard of the Khazar invasion of the Balkans, in which case they probably will be too weak in the future. On the other hand, maybe they stayed at home and will now reach out for power in Khazaria?

Dis, quite interesting, though IMHO the catastrophe is alittle exaggerated. Also IMHO Russia would've fared better against Turkey than this; this is the late 18th century, after all, and Russia was at its strongest, while Turkey at its weakest; even a horrible winter won't be enough against Suvorov, though that's just my rather biased opinion.

 

[North King]

Bwahahaha. Magyars shall arrive on the scene, of course. ^_^

 

[alex994]

FYI, I dislike your timeline dis. It's obviously an anti-Qing as well as Chinese timeline bringing back the Ming!

 

[Disenfrancised]

Dis, quite interesting, though IMHO the catastrophe is alittle exaggerated. Also IMHO Russia would've fared better against Turkey than this; this is the late 18th century, after all, and Russia was at its strongest, while Turkey at its weakest; even a horrible winter won't be enough against Suvorov, though that's just my rather biased opinion.

Its true, the time was chosen from a study where they estimated the longest possible time you could have a semi-stable cold climate before it collapses into an ice age or returns to normal. I'm pretty sure agricultural yields will drop by at least 60% or more, partciularly in Northern Europe, and then if you add in that the terrified and starving people wouldn't know why all this has happening. Perhaps I've erred on the side of chaos, and I'll be the first to admit I have probably overlooked something or someone significant .

And Russia did defeat Turkey quite badly at first remember - the Russians won every battle and were at the gates of Constantinople and Basra (they even Let the thunder of victory sound!), just the problems at home meant they ended up overstreached in hostile territory, and the Europeans channelled money into turkey in exchange for grain exports, and weaponry too to keep their supplies stable, and eventually the Turks pushed the Russians back...

FYI, I dislike your timeline dis. It's obviously an anti-Qing as well as Chinese timeline bringing back the Ming!

Its true I'm picking on the Qing, nothing bad happens to the rest of the world does it now? . The Qing didn't have a great record of disaster relief, and the granary and transport systems would not have been sufficent to transfer enough food to Northern China, hence unrest in the north as people starve, and unrest in the south as food is taken to the north. Country wide riots reduce the Qing to their secure regions and strongholds, which are overwhelmed by vast mobs seeking food. Only once the excess population had been reduced somewhat could local Han powers take control. As for the Ming, its just a name to confer a sense of continuation...

 

[das]

the Europeans channelled money into turkey in exchange for grain exports

Problem is, they can just as easily trade with Poland and Russia, both of which also have pretty good agricultural areas; especially the latter, in the south.

The nation on the Volga being the remnants of Imperial Russia, I'll probably take it when you start. If only because there are certain interesting circumstances there that are worth exploring... One more thing - what happened to all those people in Siberia? The population wasn't very thick there back in the 18th century, but that's just good - there won't be as much starvation. IMHO the southernmost cities might survive.

 

[das]

Btw, the Novgorod bit reminds me of I. Bugayenko's "Apocalypse Return" short stories (the premise is the usual "disaster ruins modern civilization", with something of a twist to the post-disaster recovery), in one of which an increasingly anarchic, mafia-ran northern Russia is overran by the Finns, the "Tsar" fleeing for Ukraine. I'm still hoping that Gelion will, one day, do a NES based on that btw...

 

[Disenfrancised]

Problem is, they can just as easily trade with Poland and Russia, both of which also have pretty good agricultural areas; especially the latter, in the south.

The nation on the Volga being the remnants of Imperial Russia, I'll probably take it when you start. If only because there are certain interesting circumstances there that are worth exploring... One more thing - what happened to all those people in Siberia? The population wasn't very thick there back in the 18th century, but that's just good - there won't be as much starvation. IMHO the southernmost cities might survive.

Cold also = less rainfall and transport itself in northern europe would be more difficult whilst Ottoman grain can go via the Med, but lets not quibble over details, unless you want me to try and rewrite the whole Althist ...

I'd hardly discribe the Tsarists as remnants either...

The people in siberia are still there for the most part, just the adminstration of the region was too difficult and so its not included as Russian domains on the map, when and if the Tsarists return the people will probably support them, though they will have gotten used to doing what they like...

As for Bugayenko, just goes to show there is no such thing as an original idea is there

 

[das]

Also, how did Ukraine split off? Its way too close to the regions of active warfare to be just ignored for the time being, IMHO. And quite close to the new capital, too.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Also, how did Ukraine split off? Its way too close to the regions of active warfare to be just ignored for the time being, IMHO. And quite close to the new capital, too.

Its still technically under the control of the Tsar, though alot of orders get 'lost in snowdrifts'.
Summary:
Instabliity from the winter means Catherine does not dissolve the Zaporozhian Host.
Cossack movements from winter+Requirements of Ottoman war=Pugachev's rebellion is more successful (another reason for Russias eventual losses in the middle east)->Several other Cossack rebellions occur including a Ukrainain one.
Nearly all of them put down (Pugachev enjoys his cage ), Ukrainain lands too vital to war over (important agricultural areas for Russia, even if transport to europe is difficult) the Tsar grants more autonomy.
Border wars with Polish unifies the Ukrainains somewhat and they gain even more autonomy, Russia busy with the Ottomans again and since the Ukrainains are still sending food and men leaves them for now.
In the springtime the Ukrainains seem to pushing their luck as to how far they can ignore the Tsars commands, increasing links with Novogorod...

Btw a good name for the nation would be nice, Ukraine? Zaporizhzhia? something like that...its borders have also changed in the last map revision so its not quite as close to the capital, doesn't control much east of the Dneipr at all.

I only have 3 more backgrounds to do btw so expect the NES to start tonight. Btw das you've pre-emptively taken all the new rules I was going to put in so I might just copy your rule set

 

[das]

Pugachev's rebellion

just wouldn't work here. It was cold enough in the rebellion's core regions in OTL; here, the people will be too busy surviving to start a rebellion. Even if a rebellion does come, it will be weakened, not strenghthened.

Zaporizhzhia?

Zaporozhschina (or Zaporozhye). Don't blame me, blame the Ukrainean language and the Latin alphabet.

Oh, and while we're at it, the Chinese state is called "Xin Ming", I think (Xin is "new" - feel free to correct me, alex).

 

[Disenfrancised]

Maybe, but Pugachev's rebellion started in in 1773, before things got really bad, and he had control of forts on the Volga in 1774 (according to Wikipedia...which I base most of this one - blame the lack of english languague websites about it ), people would be fleeing south at the time. Maybe not stronger, but the chaos that was building meant it took longer to deal with him...I dunno.

'Xin' was what I was going to use...but it was pretty uncertain, the web resources are somewhat unhelpful *Shrug*

 

[North King]

Since I'm sure you've all been waiting for it ( ), here's the map of the world, c. 670 of my Shahrbaraz timeline.

 

[ThomAnder]

Explain about Asia please How did Tang(?)'s capital end up in Beijing

 

[North King]

Woah. How the hell DID that happen? Um... My mistake, should be Chang'an.

 

[das]

Since I'm sure you've all been waiting for it

As a matter of fact I was, but kept forgetting to post it. Wait, you did...

...EVERYONE, ITS OFFICIAL NOW! NK IS A TELEPATH!

 

[North King]

Darn it. That was supposed to be secret.

LOOK, A DISTRACTION!

In any case, I'll probably continue the Shahrbaraz timeline shortly after my NES updates, which will be tomorrow.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

*gets distracted. Thanks for the map.