Alternate History Thread II...

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Insane_Panda said:
Dis, make a preview thread! And can we reserve? Pweeasee? Pwettty Pweaasee?

Maybe later, I'm buried under coursework till tuesday (Skimming the NES forum during breaks for coffee of course ;))...its pretty much going to be whats outlined above when I get the rest of the nation descriptions written (and maybe a timeline). It'll be NES2V rules with two slight changes -

1) Confidence will only be alterable by your orders and others actions, you can't spend money on it directly (its just a pet peeve of mine :mischief: ). I probably won't be as generous with non-confidence based story bonuses as das, but confidence bonus for stories will be given out like candy ;).

2) A new stat line 'Size' which will determine how many EP it costs to raise Infrastructure, Education, Culture, and change Centralization, since I find it pretty silly that it costs Russia the same amount of money to build a road system as it would Belgium ;). Size in this case is a vague composite of population and land area and will go something along the lines of;

Tiny(1)-Small(2)-Medium(3)-Large(4)-Huge(5)-Vast(6)-Colossal(7)-FK(8)-Colossal+X(8+X)

Some examples from the map - Louisine Empire is 'Large', Hispanola 'Tiny'. To raise infrastructure the Louisian's would have to spend 4 EP whilst the Hispanolians would only have to spend 1. But of course the Louisians have so much more to spend. If anyone feels this is a bad idea I'd like to hear some feedback, this was the simplest way I could think of it working...

So I'll post the rest of the nation backgrounds here sometime in the week and then start the NES Thursday Night. No reservations, but thats more due to me being too lazy to keep track of them than any sort of moral stance :lol:
 
Disenfrancised said:

:lol:

This is a good idea, but it might be a bit of overkill to spend 8 points on a stat increase, even if you are a world-spanning empire. Not sure how to balance it, though.

I would like to express interest in the United States, and the Serene Republic of Venice.
 
Why not increase it by .5 per size instead of 1 per size, and round up (or down, whatever)? That would make it slightly less extreme...
 
jalapeno_dude said:
Why not increase it by .5 per size instead of 1 per size, and round up (or down, whatever)? That would make it slightly less extreme...

Yeah, but I really don't want to have deal with fractions of EPs ;). The largest nations at the moment are only 'large' anyway at the moment, and you have to face some problems when your conquering the world after all ;).
 
If you don't want to deal with fractions, round!
 
conehead, do you still want those stats?
 
jalapeno_dude said:
If you don't want to deal with fractions, round!

Well that would just be effectively doubling the number of stat levels

Really Tiny (1)-Tiny(1)-Very Small (2)-Small(2) etc

And since this is merely a bookkeeping stat, rather than one you progress thorugh like economy there isn't really much point to do this...
 
Disenfrancised said:
Well that would just be effectively doubling the number of stat levels

Really Tiny (1)-Tiny(1)-Very Small (2)-Small(2) etc

And since this is merely a bookkeeping stat, rather than one you progress thorugh like economy there isn't really much point to do this...
I guess that's true.
 
OOC: My original plan for this installment was more ambitious, but as 1756 is a pretty logical stop after several important wars back in Europe, besides I had gone for way too long without an update for this one. I suppose you could consider this a "meanwhile" post for the Oceanic War.

IC:

1747-1756. Europe and the Middle East.

While the First Oceanic War was raging in France and the, well, oceans, several important developments took place in Europe and the Middle East.

The first one was closely linked to the FOW itself. Charles III of Burgundy, though he DID renounce all claims on the French throne, was obviously still quite interested by the events in France, especially as it begun to fall apart. Eventually, however, he decided to center on Germany, where Maximillian of Bavaria was on the deathbed, instead. Still, Charles III, having become with age a shrewd intriguer, decided to get something out of it. He secretly threatened the British with war and persuaded them to promise, officially, their neutrality in German affairs in exchange for Burgundian neutrality in French ones. That was in 1749; by the time the treaty was signed, Maximillian was already quite dead, and as soon as Charles secured British neutrality his lawyers announced that all the Bavarian lands were now his, Charles'.

Such things never go unnoticed; indeed, the elector of Brandenburg, Friedrich Wilhelm II, immediately begun amassing an anti-Burgundian coalition. Charles III decided to act boldly and defiantely; he once more proposed, at Erfurt, a formation of a very loose "German Empire" under the hereditary Burgundian hegemony. The Imperial Diet in Erfurt was to coordinate the actions of the members of this, de-facto, alliance. Economic possibilities were promising and Burgundian mediation - as well as Burgundian protection - quickly won over the smaller and weaker of German states. Poland naturally protested this, but Charles was ready for that. His diplomats and his genial First Minister Gaston Beernaert have engineered the collapse of the Holy Alliance.

After the dramatic weakening of the Ottoman Empire, the Holy Alliance indeed begun to lose meaning, and existed only de jure. Its members were no longer united by the Ottoman menace, and indeed were increasingly switching their interest elsewhere, sometimes coming into conflict with each other. Spain, obviously enough, was distracted by the war with the British, and indeed didn't have much left to gain in the Mediterranean. Francesco Arlusconi, the Doge of Venice, felt himself unthreatened by the Ottoman Empire, and centered his attention on Italy instead; there, since the acquisition of Lombardy, Venice was the strongest native power. Arlusconi expanded on that by signing alliances with the (much weaker than Venice and thus easily dominated) central Italian states; the only non-Spanish-held states in Italy that weren't aligned with Venice were Savoy-Provence and the Papal States. They signed an alliance of their own, and soon Italy was moving towards a war of its own. Poland itself no longer was interested in fighting the Ottomans, as there were no perspectives for expansion there left; indeed, the Poles were now in a consolidating stage, apart from that mostly interested in upsetting any attempts to unify Germany or to strenghthen Russia too much. Hungary was the only country that still wished to fight the Ottomans, having set eyes on the remaining Ottoman Balkan provinces, but wasn't strong enough to take on the Ottomans all by itself yet. And Russia has now switched its vector of expansion westwards; Poland and Sweden had lots of territories that Tsar Mikhail II wanted to add to his realm.

Mikhail II was thus the man Gaston Beernaert contacted. He bribed him with promises of distraction for the Poles "somewhere in Germany", and also with funds, weapons and advisors. The stage for the Russo-Polish War was set. Furthermore, young Dimitrie II Kantemir was persuaded to try and gain independence from Poland, with similar promises of assistance; attempts to win over Hungary for an attack on the Danubean Principalities failed, so Gaston decided to let Dimitrie cause trouble there instead.

Then, with minimal Polish support at worst, the German states that opposed Burgundy would be crushed.

Meanwhile, just as the Russian forces were preparing their three-pronged invasion of Poland, just as the Danubeans massacred the Polish garrison at night, just as the new Burgundian marshall, Joachim Colbert, embarked on his forced march to Bavaria... trouble brewed elsewhere. Venice dispatched troops to its allied principalities, while Savoyard and Papal diplomats negotiated an alliance and marshalled their forces, Spain politely refusing requests for help from both sides. Ottoman Empire, having defeated several risings, was regroupping and preparing for revenge. Sweden meanwhile begun reconciling with Poland and eyeing the Russian border territories - Jakub Ludwig of Poland didn't know anything for sure yet, but he certainly didn't trust Mikhail and believed Sweden to be no real threat for now.

The Poles did at first prepare for intervention in Germany, but it was clear from the start that there wasn't much it could do there. There were too many logistical problems for any serious intervention west of the Elbe, and the river's eastern side was rather less important. Brandenburg was not going to fight on for long if Brunswick fell. After the breakdown of the negotiations with Bohemia, through the territory of which Poland hoped to move troops into Bavaria, Jakub Ludwig has already decided to only support the anti-Burgundian forces monetarily. Instead, his army was to defeat the Danubeans... and, as it soon turned out, the Russians. As 1750 begun, Mikhail II's forces besieged Riga, menaced Minsk and seized the important Polish Black Sea fortified port of Khadzhibey, inherited from the Turks. The Poles, as mentioned before not completely unprepared, resisted bravely and managed to holt the Russians at Minsk, while Poland's uneven transportation network was quickly mobilized, with forces rushing to the fronts, especially in Lithuania (including OTL Belarus) and in the south, where Danubean and Russian forces already met up and threatened to overrun Polish Ukraine. Finally, the Russians were defeated at Luck in Ukraine, halting down their advance for the moment. But in the north, they succesfully captured Riga.

The Swedes didn't enter the conflict yet, but soon they managed to reach a consensus with Poland. The Poles, mindful of the balance of power in the Baltic, agreed to support Swedish claims to Estonia and Karelia, but not to Ingermanland, which - as a start - was good enough for Ulrika I, Queen of the Swedes. That put the last nail in the coffin of the anti-Burgundian forces in Germany, though they ofcourse didn't know it yet. Now, with Poland and Sweden distracted in the east, Charles III's forces only had to deal with the Brunswick-led coalition amassed against them; the coalition consisted, apart from Brunswick, of Brandenburg, all north German states and many of the central German ones. Southern Germany was forced to recognize Charles III as the German Emperor without a shot being fired, as the Burgundian forces were in position to defeat the other southern Germans within days. Joachim Colbert's Burgundo-Bavarian army easily dominated central Germany, and in late 1750 scored a decisive victory at Gottingen.

As 1751 begun, the Brunswickian forces just barely won a minor victory at Bielefeld. That minor victory however had much political impact, as Charles III was severely wounded in that battle where he personally led the Burgundian forces, and died soon thereafter. His son Phillip came to power as Phillip I (the three Phillips that ruled Burgundy in the Late Middle Ages were dukes, not kings), but soon had to deal with a wide conspiracy against him, led by his sister Charlotte. For a while, it seemed like this miracle had saved the anti-Burgundian forces, as they gained time to regroup. However, Phillip I ordered Joachim Colbert to go on with the planned campaign, hoping for the victory to strenghthen his own position in Burgundy. The conspiracy itself was easily crushed anyway.

The decisive battle happened at Peine, a small German town halfway between Hannover and the city of Brandenburg. Colbert maneuvered along the Elbe towards the latter before suddenly switching his direction and marching on westwards, taking Peine and threatening all communication routes between the two of the late Charles III's primary German enemies from there. Naturally, the mass of the Coalition armies had to be sent there to deal with this dire threat, especially as rumours spread that Colbert intended to march towards Bremen from there, in order to outflank the Brunswickians and push them out of the war. Anti-Burgundians came from the north, but also from the west and the east, making Colbert's position an untenable one. He immediately withdrew from it without a fight, startling his enemies. And then he split his forces, attacked the would-be flanking anti-Burgundian forces in their own flanks, advanced on both sides of Peine, defeated the core enemy forces just to the north from the town itself and surrounded the newly-set-up garrison, forcing its surrender. Brandenburgians still retained a pretty large army in the city of the same name, but the rest of the anti-Burgundian forces were decimated. The coalition fell apart, Georg August of Brunswick was poisoned and his brother Georg Ludwig II immediately negotiated a truce, and finally, the Elector of Brandenburg, Friedrich Wilhelm II, raised the white flag as well. In February 1752, the "Third Erfurt Plan" was adopted and the Third German War was officially over. The Holy Roman Empire was reborn, albeit under a more modest name, and Phillip I also became... Phillip I, the hereditary Emperor of Germany, the man with the power to meditate conflicts between the petty principalities of the Empire and to, along with the Erfurt Diet, determine the combined foreign policy of the German states. Even without all this, he was the leader of the unchallenged Central European great power - Burgundy-Bavaria.

Yet even as both the Third German and the Oceanic wars came to an end, the Russo-Polish one was still to have any decisive battle. The Swedish entry in 1751 slightly relieved the Poles, but although Tallinn and Vyborg were seized by the Swedes, they were repulsed time and again from Narvensk. Meanwhile, unperturbed, the Russians overran most of Courland and begun making forrays into Samogitia/Lithuania Proper. The Polish lines at Minsk yet held, but the Russians were steadily beginning to encircle the city. Poles won a minor military but major political victory by taking Kiev, but an invasion of the Left Bank (i.e. east of Dnieper) Ukraine ended in a humiliating rout at Poltava. At least the Russians were defeated at Ilichevsk near Khadzhibey, and thus were split from the Danubean rebels, who however waged a well-planned guerrila war in Moldavia.

In Italy, war started. The marquess of Montferrat, a small Italian state between Venetain Lombardy and Savoy-Provence, died and his heir renounced the alliance with Venice, instead pacting with Savoy-Provence; the Venetians supported the heir's brother, Luigi, who contested the new marquess claim to the throne and supported the old alliance with Venice. The Pope, however, immediately proclaimed support for the aforementioned new marquess, Antonio, and Luigi's rebels were defeated and forced to flee for Venetian territory. A few declarations of war later, Savoy-Provence, Montferrat and the Papal States were at war with Venice and the other Italian states, except those ruled from Madrid.

In 1753, the two wars continued and a new one commenced, though it could be considered a part of the Italian War. The Turks, seeing that the Holy Alliance was no more and that its members were either fighting each other either were busy somewhere else anyway, have decided to strike Venice first, seeking to reconquer Greece, a major threat to the Ottoman Empire's very existance. With the Venetians busy in Italy (where they, despite some gains in Piedmont and Romagna, were still facing a major threat as the anti-Venetian forces linked up at Lucca), the Turks quickly advanced to Durazzo and Athens, stopping only at these cities themselves to start serious sieges - everything else was taken on the march, thanks to the surprise effect and the Muslim population in the Venetian-held territories. However, all this scared the Hungarians into declaring war on the Ottoman Empire in support of the Venetian republic, and soon the Turkish forces in Albania were threatened from the north. They still did take Durazzo, but Hamid Pasha soon suffered his final defeat and died at Rubik in northern Albania. The Hungarians retook Durazzo and from there invaded Macedonia. There, however, they did much worse, being routed at Prizren, and soon having to retreat out of Albania as well as the locals rose up in arms and as Turks pursued from Macedonia and Greece. Speaking of Greece, Athens too was succesfully seized by the Turks after prolonged bombardment, but the Venetians resisted well at Corinth, stopping the Ottomans for now. On the sea, the Venetians could commit a pretty large fleet here and destroyed the Turkish one at Cythera.

Meanwhile, back in Italy, Luigi became marquess of Montferrat, supported by the Venetians. Despite not having much experience of land wars, even as compared to their enemies, the Venetians had numerical supremacy thanks to their allies and all those mercenaries they themselves could afford. The brief union of Papal and Savoyard forces was defeated at Florence, and the Venetians soon scored a few more victories over Savoy-Provence, forcing it to sign peace, paying some reparations and recognizing the rest of non-Spanish and non-Papal Italy a Venetian sphere of influence, and thus also recognizing Luigi as the marquess. The Venetians were ready to march on Rome to force the Pope out as well, but he soon agreed to the same terms as the ones offered to Savoy-Provence, having only succeeded in securing Spanish mediation (rather than military assistance).

And in Russia, the war was still indecisive. Swedes were pushed back and lost Tallinn, but the Russians were defeated badly at Minsk and forced to retreat. In the south, both sides were eyeing each other down from their respective banks of the Dnieper, while the Polish forces finally defeated the Danubean rebels. 1754 was the decisive year, for the Poles were now ready to commit their forces against Russia. After the breakdown of peace negotiations, the Poles launched a diversionary attack across the Dnieper, while their main forces moved out to take Smolensk. They did take it, but not before suffering from large casualties; and to make things worse, the retreating Russians set fire to the city, and much of it burned down before the Poles could put it out. There could be no advance to Moscow now, but the Polish taking of Smolensk allowed them to threaten the flanks of the Russian northern army. Mikhail II was soon forced to the peace table.

In the end, it was rather anticlimatic, with a white peace being signed, apart from some reparations and trade concessions. However, this war did have a greater significance, because in truth it didn't really end - it was only put on pause, while both sides rebuilt and prepared for future warfare. Poland and Sweden were now firmly arrayed against Russia, forcing it to search for allies in despair. This war was also important because it worsened the growing social crisis in Russia. Ever since the Golitsyns came to power, they begun a radical modernization-westernization policy. An important part of it all was the gradual abolition of serfdom, and by 1754 it was complete. Naturally, such changes caused quite some social strife; as did the creation of manufactures, the rise of commerce and the strenghthening of the urban middle classes thusly caused. The cities were growing quickly, perhaps too quickly for their own good.

Usually, a revolutionary situation comes when after a large period of general improvement, economic and social alike, a period of stagnation comes. The rather expensive and ultimately-futile war provided for such a stagnation. To further worsen the situation, the Golitsyn reforms and the growth of contact with Europe caused a general rise of liberal and radical sentiments among the educated portions of the population.

A week before the war's end, riots started in Moscow and some other cities over the growth of taxes and the military unsuccesses. Unable to put these riots down, Mikhail decreased taxes and soon secured a peace treaty which was already being negotiated. But that only temporarily stopped the rioting. Soon, it resumed. Mikhail decided to try and put them down by force, and sent the tsarskaya gvardiya ("the Tsar's Guard") to subdue the rioters. But the Guard's officers, as mentioned before, were also quite infatuated with the liberal ideals, especially Oleg Drevomyslov, one of the Guard's highest commanders. He persuaded the rest of the officers to join the rioting bourgoise and to march on the Kremlin.

Mikhail II still had some loyal forces left in the city garrison, but decided not to use them - a little civil war in his own capital could have very negative consequences, both for Russia's prestige abroad and his own domestic positions, not to mention that the Poles might use the moment to renege on their peace treaty. So he agreed to talk with the rebel leaders. In the end, a compromise was worked out, and Russia became a parliamentary monarchy, with the Tsar still retaining much power but being somewhat limited by the newly-formed Duma, which represented, to one extent or another, all the social groups in Russia. However, future events showed this peace between the Tsar and his people to be a rather fragile thing...

Meanwhile, the Ottoman Empire was crumbling. The Venetians, having freed themselves up in Italy, were advancing quickly in Greece and Albania, while Hungarians linked up with them and advanced into Macedonia. The Slavic people of the Balkans were rebelling - not without some Polish help, the Bulgars have defeated a rather weak Ottoman garrison and seized Vidin, Sofia and Burgas, while the Hungarian-assisted Macedonians eventually took Salonika, cutting off the Turkish forces in Greece from their supply routes. As the Venetians steadily moved to take the naval supremacy, the Sultan fled, in 1754, from Constantinope to Ankara, where he was in comparative safety. That was a reasonable move, for Constantinople itself was no longer safe - there were rebellions in the streets, a palace coup attempt and general fighting between the local Greeks, Armenians and Turks. Incitedand assisted by the Venetians, the Mamelukes in Egypt used this moment to make a succesful bid for independence, and soon advanced into Palestine and Arabia. Further north, in 1755, the Georgians rose up. Mikhail II purportedly wanted to help them, but was advised against it by the Duma and himself decided that it would be wiser to prepare for revanche on the Poles instead.

That was hardly a relief for poor, poor Selim III though. For soon, another vulture attacked the dying Ottoman Empire. Reza Quli Mirza, or Reza Shah, the son of Nadir Shah. After his father's death in 1750, a new series of revolts started throughout Persia, but Reza quickly dealt with them and was now out for more conquest. His forces invaded Eastern Anatolia and Syria in 1756...

The final peace treaty - that of Ankara - left Selim III with a tiny Sultanate of Turkey (he had to resign his Caliphal title, among other things), consisting of Central and Western Anatolia, a part of Thrace and the city of Constantinople, although in that city he had to make huge commercial concessions. Venetian territory was restored to status quo (apart from the Aegean, where some small islands were grabbed from the Ottomans), Hungarians gained some borderlands, Georgia got its independence, Persia annexed Eastern Anatolia, Kurdistan and Syria, Egypt got independence, Palestine and Hejaz. Two more states were created - the Esterhazy-ruled kingdom of Macedonia, with the capital in Salonika, and a Sobiesky-ruled kingdom of Bulgaria. Both represented the extension of Polish and Hungarian influence in the Balkans.

This peace, too, was very unstable. Indeed, all the peace treaties of the 1750s, without exception, created far more problems than they had solved...
 
Btw, just found the time to read NK's latest installment. Keep it up! However, there is, as always, a nitpick:

the Slavic lands, for there were their allies of the Khazars.

Not sure if the Slavic tribes could be considered Khazar allies, more like vassals.

And also, IMHO the Roman Empire the way it is now is way too overstretched to survive for long, even if it defeats the Franks. It also has way too many real and potential enemies - the various European peoples will attack them from the north, the Arabs will eventually backstab them as well (not much of a rationale for cooperation left now), so will the Khazars (btw, are you sure that the Khazar defection is all that likely? Maybe I'm wrong, but the Khazars were helping the Byzantines against Persians not ONLY for money - they were also helping them because they had a long-standing conflict with Persia over the Caucasian regions. If I were them, I'd attack the Romans now that they are overstretched and busy elsewhere - Crimea and Caucasian territories alike beckon!). Still, its your althist.

EDIT: So, cone... what rules are you going to use? Rather hard to do stats without that...
 
Id assume he was going to use your NESV rules, since he hasnt said otherwise.
 
das said:
Btw, just found the time to read NK's latest installment. Keep it up! However, there is, as always, a nitpick:

Good. :p

Not sure if the Slavic tribes could be considered Khazar allies, more like vassals.

My wording was a little ambiguous, I meant the Khazars being allies of the Byzantines, occupying Slavic lands...

And also, IMHO the Roman Empire the way it is now is way too overstretched to survive for long, even if it defeats the Franks. It also has way too many real and potential enemies - the various European peoples will attack them from the north, the Arabs will eventually backstab them as well (not much of a rationale for cooperation left now), so will the Khazars

Bwahahahahahaha... Maybe. Their leader isn't exactly the smartest in the grand strategic sense.

(btw, are you sure that the Khazar defection is all that likely? Maybe I'm wrong, but the Khazars were helping the Byzantines against Persians not ONLY for money - they were also helping them because they had a long-standing conflict with Persia over the Caucasian regions.

The exact details of the agreement are, naturally, lost to historians. Suffice it to say, he told them that they would be given not only some concessions, but also a much larger empire, and he would support them in this endeavour--it was a very good deal for the as then still relatively minor Khazars.

If I were them, I'd attack the Romans now that they are overstretched and busy elsewhere - Crimea and Caucasian territories alike beckon!). Still, its your althist.

They might just do that. :D
 
Still, I'd wait for confirmation - would be a shame if I have to redo all those stats later on...

EDIT:

the as then still relatively minor Khazars.

Unfortunately there aren't enough good sources about the Khazar expansion, but IMHO they weren't all that minor by then - although they reached their full northern size a few centuries later, by then they lost their southern possessions.

Still, I suppose that it is never impossible to make a deal.
 
I'm thinking that they were a moderately sized steppe power, which could use support from any other people against its foes... Could be wrong, of course.

BTW, great timeline, just read through the last part. The Ottomans are really getting screwed over quite quickly though... I'd think that powers like Russia would actually WANT to keep them alive--an odd view, yes, but a stronger Persia and Venetia is not in the Tzar or the Duma's best interests...
 
The thing is, neither Persia nor Venice can actually reach Russian territory, whereas the Turks could. Although I'd imagine Russian diplomats had a hand in the survival of the rump Turkey, particularily in it holding the Straits (well, that and the fact that nobody wanted Venice to take it and no other great power was close enough to).
 
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