Alternate History Thread III

[Dachs]

Oh come on, it should be real easy now!

Sorry, I\'ve been gone...and outside of Eastern Roman history, again, I\'m pretty rusty.

Obviously there was some sort of large-scale migration from the Ukraine into the Balkans, which overthrew Byzantium somehow - possibly in conjunction with the Slavs. The \'Rus Khaganate might have been involved; the Khazars might have fallen early, facilitating migration somehow. I\'m really not sure, and to be honest, this is just a load of buckshot here...

 

[das]

Obviously there was some sort of large-scale migration from the Ukraine into the Balkans

No there wasn't. Nothing that could honestly be called large-scale, at least.

possibly in conjunction with the Slavs

"Possibly"?

The \'Rus Khaganate might have been involved

Not by the usual definition of the Rus' Khaganate. But, you are getting somewhere here.

the Khazars might have fallen early

The opposite has happened (the Khazars fell later than in OTL), halting certain westwards migrations and... other movements. But that's not related to the PoD itself.

 

[Dachs]

Not by the usual definition of the Rus Khaganate. But, you are getting somewhere here.

This is the time period in which the Rus are disintegrating (due to massive Slavic uprisings against the Christianization of their overlords IIRC)...so they either fail to collapse, they do not go back to Scandinavia and instead go someplace else, or somebody establishes a new Khaganate during or after the uprising. Since you said that the PoD has nothing to do with religious conversions, the Slavs were not converted as the Varangians were, and the Rus cannot have not been converted in the first place...right?

 

[das]

This is the time period in which the Rus are disintegrating (due to massive Slavic uprisings against the Christianization of their overlords IIRC)...so they either fail to collapse, they do not go back to Scandinavia and instead go someplace else, or somebody establishes a new Khaganate during or after the uprising. Since you said that the PoD has nothing to do with religious conversions, the Slavs were not converted as the Varangians were, and the Rus cannot have not been converted in the first place...right?

Actually the PoD is post-Khaganate (again, going by the usual definition of the said Khaganate).

 

[silver 2039]

What do you think would be the best nation for me?

 

[Cuivienen]

Sviatoslav of Kiev wins the Battle of Arcadiopolis, defeating the Byzantines and eventually capturing Constantinople?

 

[Dachs]

IIRC the PoD wasn\'t Byzantine. That was what I would have thought, were it not so...

 

[Israelite9191]

I'm guessing that some sort of Ukrainian power migration into the Balkans forced Serbia to either a) move eastwards and come into conflict with Byzantium, whom the ultimately conquer, or b) somehow ally and/or conquer neighbouring South Slavic peoples in order to drive the Ukrainians away leading to an ultimate Serb conquest of Byzantium.

 

[das]

What do you think would be the best nation for me?

Well, you showed interest in Bengal, didn't you? Xin Ming (i.e. southern) China conforms to your usual play style best, though (populism, nationalism, organising insurgencies in ethnic Chinese territories outside of the dynasty's control, modernising military and so forth). The Second Malinese Empire might work as well. France, alas, is no longer what it once was, but it can always go back to its good old Drengin-like days if a strong leader winds up in charge...

Sviatoslav of Kiev wins the Battle of Arcadiopolis, defeating the Byzantines and eventually capturing Constantinople?

No, seeing as Svyatoslav wasn't born. However, what did occur as one of the more immediate effects of the PoD was partially inspired by his OTL exploits, and indeed transpired as you had said. What made the difference was that this world's Kiev-based state had gotten involved in the Balkans earlier than in OTL, and had much closer ties with Bulgaria from the start, allowing a more peaceful personal union that led to a fierce war with the Byzantines, which the latter won because of the intrigue.

So the question is, why was Kiev more involved in the Balkans?

EDIT:

Ukrainian power migration

Define "power migration". But if you mean heavy involvement of the "Ukrainian" elite in the Balkans, then yes.

forced Serbia to either a) move eastwards and come into conflict with Byzantium, whom the ultimately conquer

Err, how is that supposed to happen exactly? Unless the "Ukrainians" conquer Hungary and THEN press into Serbia, but that is not really what happened.

Serbs still live where they have lived in the Middle Ages, plus in Greece; they simply unified the Balkans (as detailed earlier in the thread; incidentally, that's an event of the second half of the 19th century, so it's not really very connected to the PoD).

b) somehow ally and/or conquer neighbouring South Slavic peoples in order to drive the Ukrainians away leading to an ultimate Serb conquest of Byzantium.

That's kinda what did happen in the 19th century, though Holy Roman Imperial assistance was perhaps more crucial than Serbian military and diplomatic successes in the Bulgarian Principalities.

 

[silver 2039]

So the question is, why was Kiev more involved in the Balkans?

The Mongols never burnt it to the ground?

 

[Cuivienen]

The Mongols never burnt it to the ground?

Much too late. I must say I'm stumped as to why the Kievans are interfering in the Balkans if it happens before Sviatoslav. Perhaps the Catholic Church convinced them to convert and attack the Orthodox areas during the Photian Schism?

 

[Kal'thzar]

Das could you suggest a nation I might like on that map? not quite sure what I might like.....(well, if you ever run it that is )

 

[das]

The Mongols never burnt it to the ground?

Ironically enough, while generally failing to devastate Russia nearly as much as in OTL, the Mongols still did burn it down... but that is indeed way too late.

EDIT:

Das could you suggest a nation I might like on that map?

The Kingdom of Arcadia comes to mind, ofcourse... The Flemings are very sneaky, though, so they might work as well.

As for running it, I probably will, though not any time soon.

 

[silver 2039]

Didn't the Kevians besige Constantinople a couple of times? So maybe one of their seiges succedded and they took the city explaning their greater involvement in the Balkans?

 

[das]

That was rather the consequence of that greater involvement.

 

[Israelite9191]

Hmm, I've run out of ideas for now. Anyway, das, do you see any particular nation on the map as being appropriate for me?

 

[Azale]

AND ME? WHAT OF ME DASIO? I REQUEST URGENT NATION ASSIGNMENT!

This is the most interesting and unique PoD I've seen in like 2 years from you das!

 

[Israelite9191]

That it definately is. It's nice to see a world so radically changed, especially in the Americas. Personally, I can't stand how the US always ends up existing and in almost the exast same way (possibly with the addition of Latin American and/or Canadian territory) in every bloody time line.

 

[das]

Anyway, das, do you see any particular nation on the map as being appropriate for me?

Ethiopia comes to mind immediately, while Ceylon is a centre of Christian missionary activities in the Indian Ocean, and has evolved to something quite Jesuit-like, though with a more bloody Crusader past. The curiously multicultural Egypt might also work.

AND ME? WHAT OF ME DASIO? I REQUEST URGENT NATION ASSIGNMENT!

The Grand Principality of Chernigov (a.k.a. that southern "Russian" state) seems to fit best (ambitious, nationalistic, irredentist, with a proud military tradition; plus you seem to like Mediterranean nations, and it may well be considered such).

That it definately is. It's nice to see a world so radically changed, especially in the Americas.

Thanks, I try. Such long althists (slightly over a thousand years of altered history, here) can be hard to work with (which is why I didn't write it out as such), but are definitely worth it in the end.

As for USA, it is pretty hard to realistically destroy after the first few decades of its existance. Which is one of the reasons I preffer earlier PoDs...

 

[Azale]

Ok, I'm going to seem stupid...but what is irrendist?