Alternate History Thread III

A Greek exodus is possible, but all too popular given what we saw in ITNES. Oligarchs would probably take power as puppets in much of Greece, since the Persians didn't like to alter existing governmental forms (IIRC...IDK much about Persian domestic policy, so...) much. Eventually, there could be another Harmodius and Aristogeiton, but that would probably get crushed by the Achaemenids just like the Egyptian rebellion. And that time, there wouldn't be an Athens to foment the rebellion.

I think a bunch of people on the forums wouldn't like a non-Greek TL, though (I speak for myself and Gaius here). :p
 
Dachspmg said:
A Greek exodus is possible, but all too popular given what we saw in ITNES. Oligarchs would probably take power as puppets in much of Greece, since the Persians didn't like to alter existing governmental forms (IIRC...IDK much about Persian domestic policy, so...) much. Eventually, there could be another Harmodius and Aristogeiton, but that would probably get crushed by the Achaemenids just like the Egyptian rebellion. And that time, there wouldn't be an Athens to foment the rebellion.

I think a bunch of people on the forums wouldn't like a non-Greek TL, though (I speak for myself and Gaius here). :p

Onward Argive soldiers! Through the breach, my long-haired Achaeans! To a Greek TL and destiny or a glorious charge to Erebus!

Ahem.

Personally, I support the Alcibiades timeline. Perhaps the foolish Athenians don't call him back to put him on trial, driving him into the hands of the Spartans. Spartans continue their silly raiding campaigns and Athens crushes them early. Of course, they would need to reject Alcibiades' plan for the invasion of Syracuse (involving rounding up allies first rather than attacking directly, which proved to be a complete disaster as it not only allowed the Syracusans to appeal to Sparta for help while fortifying, but no one wanted to help the Athenians!). Or we could go with the rejected truce that Sparta offered a few years before Athens' fortunes took a definite downward spiral. Some sort of more permanent oligarchy would benefit Athens, in my oh-so-humble opinion. Poor Socrates :p

Still, to be honest, many things about the Athenian democracy infuriate me. Quite foolish in many instances. Maybe We hearken back to Pisistratus and his tyranny. Lets say his sons aren't assassinated and, in pure Medici form, go on an autocratic rampage (although with much less success!) and he forms a (Medici-esque) dynasty. Lots of alt-history required there though, with little information to work from (for you pansies anyway... only joking! :p).

Even so, Spartans are too insular for Empire, so it'd have to be Athenians. Alexander is great and everything (didn't even mean to make that pun, silly me, har har har), but he's too close to barbaroi for me :p There would need to be something that destroyed (or rather greatly damaged) the idea of the polis as the ultimate political unit though, something that only really happened under Alexander.

So I've gone halfway round my arse to get to my nose and invented a saying in the process. Thoughts?
 
I'd support an Alcibiades timeline if its properly done. The idea has much promise, but myself I could never get around to it... Maybe you could write it, LittleBoots?

Not as sure about oligarchy, though, that form of government is rarely permanent and tends to collapse bloodily, although it (the collapse) does usually result in a "survival of the fittest". IMHO a Roman (Augustian) scenario might work nicely for Athens.
 
Yeah, I remember a das/me/Thlayli/(Kal? I think) debate on Alternate History Thread II about such a TL, with me deriding Alcibiades' qualities of leadership. I mean, Thrasybulus was such a better general (he came up with the Cyzicus plan, at the very least...).

Perhaps you could look it up. It's in the later part of Alternate History II, right before the Byzantine TL that I never finished.
 
I'll look it up and I suppose I could try my hand at an alt history, though I never really thought about it. I'd agree that his skills as a leader aren't as good as they could have been (although he was a decent naval commander who happened to leave at inopportune times). He did give the Spartans some good advice on how to change their strategies though (stop raiding, set up fort at Decelea).

I must assent to you on this one das, the oligarchy really couldn't last, especially in Athens. An Augustus figure would be a beautiful thing. Curiously, Pisistratus was such a figure and yet I didn't even think about lifting him (or rather, his accomplishment) from his time period and doing something similar about a hundred years later. Makes sense to me.

Maybe its ripping too much from Rome, but what about a Triumvirate? Alcibiades would be the kind of guy to set that up. Maybe Cleon doesn't die at Amphipolis so he can be one part (although that might change the scenario quite a bit as it is). And the third, maybe a weak compromise member like, oh, say Nicias? Thats bound to create problems :evil:. Need to think of a reason they'd allow a triumvirate though... Maybe its a pipe dream. Will post more later.
 
Okay, so, maybe a little too far-fetched, but I was thinking that the best situation for the installation of a tyrannos would be a result of Thrasybulus revolt in 403 against the Thirty. The first premise you must accept is that, for whatever reason, Lysander does not put a price on Alcibiades' head. That will come in handy later.

Now we move on the Thrasybulus' revolt. Lets say he doesn't grant amnesty and instead has aspirations to power. So he proceeds to kill the oligarchs and goes ahead and includes a large number of wealthy aristocrats who might oppose him. He liquidates their wealth and redistributes the land, gaining popularity and providing funding for himself and the tightening Athenian treasury. He then uses the armour of the wealthy he has killed (and the wealth he has taken to buy new armour) and begins equipping thetes (lowest class) for free. This is possible because of the destruction of the Athenian fleet - there are no longer ships for them to man and are now available for service on land, with the equipment provided by Thrasybulus.

Of course, these actions would annoy the Spartans and infuriate the Corinthians (who wanted the Spartans to raze Athens to the ground and kill everyone rather than just set up an oligarchy). As a result, the Corinthians, mad at Sparta, send a force by themselves to put down this "rabble-army" once and for all. Athenian numbers, familiarity with the terrain, defensive position, and high morale due to their underdog, resurgent status carries the day and the Corinthians are completely destroyed.

The Spartans, cautious as ever, consult oracles and whatnot first and then Lysander decides what worked before can work again and proceeds to blockade Athens by sea. Now his fatal mistake. Alcibiades, contacted by Thrasybulus and convinced to aid the Athenian cause one last time, uses his persuasive charm and Persian connections to convince the Persians that the Spartans are coming dangerously close to hegemony in Greece and could soon pose a threat to Persia. The Persians send a fleet to raise the blockade and the Spartan lose to a combination of confusion, trickery, and betrayal (by the Persians, who had been helping them). Their fleet is destroyed. Spartans proceed to do the only thing they think they can and send an army to Athens. Poor logistics, a more aggressive Athenian strategy, a loss of support from nearby cities due to war weariness, and the confidence of the Athenians in the righteousness of their cause result in a devastating victory. The Spartans fight for days until the last hundred are captured (it happened at Sphacteria, capturing Spartans is not impossible!). The Athenian center, made up largely of the middle class, suffers massive casualties, but the weight of the thetes compensate and the Spartans are subdued.

Result: Athens now has a largely reduced upper and middle class (although both still exist and are by no means close to death; their proportions have merely been vastly reduced). Lower class is bolstered by citizenship grants to foreigners/slaves who fight for Thrasybulus (preferrably slaves of the aristocrats that are killed). Thrasybulus is loved by the masses but his aspirations to power doom him. He sets himself up as Archon Eponymous for life (or maybe Monarchon, the One Ruler, thus doing away with the other archons) and maybe dissolves the Ekklesia.

Epilogue: Obviously not tenable, this merely sets the stage for someone else to come in and manipulate the system to an extent where they appear to be restoring democracy but are in fact merely creating a puppet system and ruling just as monarchically as Thrasybulus but with more diplomacy. Possibly some compromise between the aristocrats and the lower classes resulting in a smaller Assembly but a representative of the people. I suppose that could even happen under Thrasybulus. I dunno. Thoughts?
 
While we are on the topic of Greek alt-hists, this is the beginning of an alt-hist that I started a while back but never finished. Now that I have time, I think I will finish it, and so will post the beginning here as a reminder to myself to finish the rest.
Part I (499 BCE)


This is the Showing forth of the Inquiry of Herodotus of Halicarnassos, to the end that neither the deeds of men may be forgotten by lapse of time, nor the works great and marvelous, which have been produced some by Hellenes and some by Barbarians, may lose their renown; and especially that the causes may be remembered for which these waged war with one another…

So you wish, young Herodotus, to learn of the events which caused our current conflicts. You ask well, though I suppose if tried to do justice to my tale, I would have to start at the beginning of time itself. Nevertheless, if you promise to keep my mug full of beer, I’ll relate the story as I heard it from my father who lived at fought in those days.

We may start, I suppose with Aristagoras, the tyrant of Miletus. In those days, Miletus, and indeed all of Ionia was not as it is now, but rather was ruled by the Empire of the Persians. Now it came to pass that there was an island nearby Ionia, called Naxos, from which certain men of the wealthier class were driven. Now these men fled to Miletus and regaled Aristagoras with tales of its wealth and promised that if he would help restore them, that wealth would be his. This Aristagoras agreed to, for he thought to himself that if he did this, he could make himself king over Naxos. However, Naxos was strong, with over eight thousand shields strong and a large fleet besides, and Aristagoras did not know whether he would be able to defeat Naxos or not. Therefore he went to Artaphernes, who was the brother of Darius the king, and ruler of all the people of the sea-coasts in Asia, and had a great army and many ships.

Aristagoras, therefore, went to Artaphernes, who dwelt in Sardis, and told him of the great wealth of Naxos, and the ease of capturing it for the glory of the Persians, and promised him many things besides, which he could only hope to pay if Naxos was captured. When he heard these things, Artaphernes agreed to help Aristagoras and promised two hundred ships to him, as well as a large sum of money, and many Persians and many of their allies. Now of these forces, Megabates, a cousin of Darius and a general of some renown, was named commander.

The gods, however, were not with this expedition, for they wished to use this in order to make a cause for war between the Persians and the Greeks. Therefore, they caused a quarrel to develop between Megabates and Aristagoras over the punishment of an Ionian. Because of this, Megabates was enraged, and sent a messenger by night to Naxos in order to inform them of the coming fleet. Naxos, therefore, got together all its crops, and strengthened its walls, and prepared for a long siege. Therefore, when the Persian fleet arrived at Naxos, they found it well fortified, so that they could not quickly take it. Despite this, the Persians disembarked their troops, and surrounded the city, and besieged it for four months. After this time, the Persian money had run out, and Aristagoras had spent a large sum of his own money besides, and so they were forced to return to the mainland again.

Because of the failure of his campaign, Aristagoras feared greatly, for he could not fulfill the promises he made to Artaphernes, and had spent a large sum of the Persian’s money and had nothing to show for it. Besides all of this, because of his quarrel, he made a great enemy of Megabates. Therefore, he planed for a revolt, fearing that he would be disposed by the Persians anyway, and at least in this manner he may have a chance of keeping his throne. So he called together many leading men of Miletus and proposed his plan to them. This plan they agreed to, and also agreed to send messengers around in order to get other cities to join them, and to send another of their number to seize the Persian fleet which had so recently sailed to Naxos. So Iatragoras was sent for this purpose and seized by craft the fleet of the Persians, and many of their commanders. Then Aristagoras openly made revolt and devised all that he could to the hurt of Darius.

He was joined in this revolt by many of the chief cities of Ionia, for he had sent messengers around, inciting the people to revolt. And some revolted because the Persians had taxed them grievously, and some revolted because they were mistreated by the tyrants the Persians had set over them, and some revolted because they found it intolerable that they should be ruled by a Persian, and not one of their own. Aristagoras himself sailed to Lacedaemon, for in truth it was necessary that he should find some powerful allies.

At this time Dorieos, son of Anaxandrides, was king of Lacedaemon, both by merit as well as by birth. For when Dorieos was younger, of all his equals in age he was the first in everything that the Lacadaemonians valued. It was to him that Aristagoras first came, for such was the power of the Lacedaemon at this time, they were reckoned as masters of Hellas. Aristagoras presented his case before Dorieos, describing the plight of the Ionians and the riches of the Persians, and the weakness of the enemy compared to the might of the Lacedaemon army. It was through this, as well as many promises, that Dorieos agreed to supply Aristagoras with many men, and sent him on to Athens with certain men in order to persuade them also to contribute men to the Ionian cause.

Now Athens at that time were allies to Lacedaemon, which came about in this manner. Athens was ruled by the sons of Peisistratos, who overthrew the previous tyrant Hipparchos. At this time the sons of Peisistratos were dealing harshly with the Athenians, causing a large number of them to flee into exile. Some of these exiles, the Alcmaionidai, gathered together, and used their wealth to construct a temple at Delphi for the oracle. The Pythian prophetess by this gift, as well as other gifts of money, was persuaded that whenever men of the Spartans should come to inquire of the Oracle, either privately or publicly sent, she should propose to them to set Athens free. The Lacadaemonians, therefore, since the same utterance was delivered to them on all occasions, sent many armies at diverse times to drive out the sons of Peisistratos from Athens, although these were very closely connected with them by guest-friendship; for they held that the concerns of the god should be preferred to those of men.

Thus, the Lacadaemonians, after several defeats, came before the walls of Athens again, this time with their best men, under the command of their king, Dorieos. These men, defeated the Athenians, and their allies, causing the sons of Peisistratos to retreat to the Pelasgian wall. There they would have been safe, for they were well provided with food and drink, while the besiegers were not prepared at all for a long siege. However, in the course of the battle of Athens, the children of the sons of Peisistratos had been captured. Thus, the Lacadaemonians offered to return their children if the sons of Peisistratos in return left Attica within six days. This the sons of Peisistratos agreed to, and quit Attica.

After this event, Athens, which had already been great, afterwards grew even greater, led by two men, Cleisthenes, a descendant of Alcmaion, and Isagoras, the son of Tisander. Now these two men who ruled Athens began to struggle for power, and Cleisthenes was getting the worst of it. Therefore Cleisthenes determined to make common cause with the commoners, causing his party to grow stronger, and Isagoras’ weaker. Therefore, Isagoras, who had been a guest-friend of Dorieos since the siege of the sons of Peisistratos, appealed to Dorieos for aid. Now Dorieos appeared in Athens with a very large army, and expelled by force Cleisthenes and many others whose names were supplied by Isagoras. After this, he dissolved the Senate, putting the affairs of the state of Athens under three hundred of Isagoras’ partisans. The Senate, however, made opposition, and was not willing to submit, and caused a large number of Athenians to gather together to oppose Dorieos and Isagoras. The Spartans, however, by virtue of their training and strength, defeated the Athenians. For, though they were many, the Athenians lacked the arms and cohesion of the Spartans and their allies. Thus, Cleisthenes party was defeated, and the Lacadaemonians’ ally Isagoras became tyrant of Athens.

Because of the events I just related, Athens was a staunch ally of Sparta. Therefore, when Aristagoras came to Athens, with the agreement of the Lacadaemonians to help him, Isagoras also agreed to help, hoping in this manner to gain favor with Lacadaemon. Thus, he promised to Aristagoras forty triremes, commanded by Melanthios, one of their citizens, who was in all things highly reputed. With these troops, Aristagoras also received ten triremes from the Eretrians under the command of Eualkides, who joined the expedition, not for the sake of the Athenians, nor the Lacadaemonians, but of the Milesians themselves, to repay them a debt which they owed. For the Milesians in former times had borne with the Eretrians the burden of all that war which they had with the Chalkidians at the time when the Chalkidians on their side were helped by the Samians against the Eretrians and Milesians.

While these things were going on, the flames of the Ionian rebellion continued to spread. For in Thracia, the Chersonese[1] had revolted under the command of their tyrant Miltiades, who is called by some the Younger, for the Chersonese had another tyrant named Miltiades before this one, who was Athenian by birth. The Chersonese, as I said, joined the Ionian rebellion and seized the isles of Lemnos and Imbros from the Persians.

Thus, as spring came, the armies of the Hellenes and Persians moved towards each other, each seeking the destruction of the other. And many deeds of valor were performed, that are worth singing of. But it is late now, and I find my cup empty and my lids heavy. Therefore, the tale must wait yet a little while before it can be recounted again. So farewell, young Herodotus, come again when your purse is heavy and needs to lighten itself by buying me a drink, and I will recount what became of the Ionian revolt, and the history of the conflict.


[1]Thracians in modern-day Gallipoli. I think all the other cities I named are relatively well-known, at least to get an idea of their location. If not, tell me, and I will give a rough idea of where they are located.
 
Though all references to beer should be replaced with wine, of course.

How do you know that Greeks in this world won't conquer Germany, stealing its beverage traditions along the way? :p

Good althist Strategos, sadly this is even less my time than the Middle Ages, so I can't offer much constructive criticism here.
 
das said:
Good althist Strategos, sadly this is even less my time than the Middle Ages, so I can't offer much constructive criticism here.
You knew about Doge Pietro Orseolo II, when (I would think that) most people here wouldn't know about that chappie without looking him up first. Knowledge of random Venetian doges is definitely an indicator of "not your time". ;)
 
BTW, good work on tyrants in Athens. If any consultation is needed, I'm always here...
 
Random knowledge, nothing more. I have lots of that. But I have more of that for the 17th-19th centuries than for the Middle Ages.
 
das, how goes the stats you promised for that one nes I promised to do? :p

I'm not expecting much progress, considering your recent schedule.
 
Masterful work, Strategos. Loved the style, especially the Hellenized spellings (i.e. Peisistratos vs. Pisistratus; damn you Latin! though its something I'm guilty of on occasion :p). Nice quote as well! All in all it was amazing.

so much so that nobody noticed my ponderings or responded to my solicitation for thoughts right above yours :(

But I'm not whining ;) I wrote a paper the other day on how Cleisthenes essentially laid the foundation for true democracy in Athens, so that really was the smartest place to change things to have a more authoritarian Athens. Bravo!
 
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