Alternate History Thread III

[carmen510]

Me too. Meh, how 'bout this (Very very broad concept? )

In 1860, the Confederates had seceded from the Union. In the Battle of Bull Run, (Or Mannasses, depending on your view) 'Stonewall' Jackson joined the fight and was killed by a Union calvary strike. The Confederates kept pushing onto Maryland, when Washington D.C was vacated. They set up a government in New York. However, New England seceded as well, for a theocratic Puritan leader had created a revolution. Ulysses S. Grant lead an assault on the Confederates, and pushed them back to Washington D.C. (The South still occupies Washington) However, the South had created a huge navy that now rivaled the Union. A sea battle took place near Charleston, where the Union managed to win. The Confederates took over Florida, after the Spanish pledged support to the Union. Will edit for world changes later, so don't post about this yet.

 

[Thlayli]

Me too. Meh, how 'bout this (Very very broad concept? )

In 1860, the Confederates had seceded from the Union. In the Battle of Bull Run, (Or Mannasses, depending on your view) 'Stonewall' Jackson joined the fight and was killed by a Union calvary strike. The Confederates kept pushing onto Maryland, when Washington D.C was vacated. They set up a government in New York. However, New England seceded as well, for a theocratic Puritan leader had created a revolution. Ulysses S. Grant lead an assault on the Confederates, and pushed them back to Washington D.C. (The South still occupies Washington) However, the South had created a huge navy that now rivaled the Union. A sea battle took place near Charleston, where the Union managed to win. The Confederates took over Florida, after the Spanish pledged support to the Union. Will edit for world changes later, so don't post about this yet.

Ok, let me point out the INITIAL problems.

1. If Stonewall Jackson, the man who rallied Southern troops at Manassas in the first place, was killed, how would the South "push on" to Maryland? The Confederacy would lose the battle, placing Richmond itself in jeopardy...

2. Washington D.C. was quite well defended, with a ring of forts and batteries, and even if the Union lost the battle of Manassas, (which it did,) the South didn't have the ability so early in the war to take the city. Also, see above.

3. Considering that the Congregational Church was disestablished as the state religion in Mass. and Conn. during the early 19th century, an unexplained resurgence of religious sentiment followed by random secession, during a time when Northern support for the Union was at an all time high, seems...well, impossible.

4. The South didn't have the industrial capacity to create any navy. Just making the Virginia was a stretch, and that was one ironclad.

5. Hate to break it to you, but Florida was already part of the Union (and thus the Confederacy) as of 1861.


So, yeah...probably not going to work. No offense, of course.

 

[LittleBoots]

Took a cursory glance at the proposal. Have to agree with Thlayli. Just one note, confederate navy obviously impossible, but there was some idea that England might come in on the confederacy's side. I realize its a stretch as well, but more feasible than a sudden confederate industrial complex.

 

[das]

The two aforementioned ideas are utterly absurd.

Some historical event that made the Roosevelts go to Russia instead of USA.

That one's actually absurdly EASY, as many Dutch specialists were brought in to Russia as early as in the 16th century. Yet beyond founding some eastern cities and early factories, and possibly getting a monument or two somewhere (in the cities that they'll found), the Roosevelts are unlikely to have much of a long-term effect, much less come to power. Likewise with Stalin in USA; come on, an ORTHODOX lower-class immigrant from the corner of the world coming anywhere near power in the early 20th century USA?! Now, him moving there isn't all that difficult, although Switzerland, France or Britain were far more popular destinations for Russian (meaning subjects of the Russian Empire; note that it obviously doesn't include the TURKISH Armenians ) emigres.

That said, a similar idea appeared in the Russian althist forum a while ago, with Stalin as a Democrat President of the USA, carrying out a different version of the New Deal (basically, see Turtledove's version), while Roosevelt is the right-wing Soviet General-Secretary, continuing and further developing the NEP into a system of state capitalism.

Doesn't make it any less unlikely, ofcourse, but a curious coincidence.

 

[Dachs]

4. The South didn't have the industrial capacity to create any navy. Just making the Virginia was a stretch, and that was one ironclad.

I assume you're ignoring the various commerce raiders in the interest of expediency and for the fact that the British made them.

 

[das]

The commerce raiders were merely a nuisance, from what I recall... That said, had the British REALLY wanted to help the Confederates, they could've sold them lots of ships, possibly enough to alter the naval balance radically. But why the hell would the British want to waste that effort on a doomed cause?

 

[Cuivienen]

Economic reasons. The North wanted to impose tariffs on British goods to protect their industry. The South opposed such tariffs since they couldn't produce any manufactured goods themselves and preferred to buy from the cheapest source rather than always the North. (Of course, you probably know that and were being rhetorical.)

Also, if the British had helped the South enough, the North might have gotten tired of the war and given up. Not under Lincoln, but if the war had dragged on to 1868, Lincoln might have lost reelection to a peace candidate.

 

[North King]

Also, if the British had helped the South enough, the North might have gotten tired of the war and given up. Not under Lincoln, but if the war had dragged on to 1868, Lincoln might have lost reelection to a peace candidate.

I don't know that the country would have voted for a peace candidate unless some major city was taken; Washington or Philidelphia. The American people were naieve enough even in the 1840s to believe they could take on Britain, after all; that crisis was only absolved through rather more intelligent American diplomats.

 

[shortguy]

Also, if the British had helped the South enough, the North might have gotten tired of the war and given up. Not under Lincoln, but if the war had dragged on to 1868, Lincoln might have lost reelection to a peace candidate.

After the Overland Campaign, there was a very real chance that Lincoln would've lost in 1864. Once his re-election was assured in September, the war was all but decided. Of course, if the British helped enough that the war never reached this stage, then Lincoln wouldn't have won in '64 anyway.

 

[carmen510]

That was a VERY VERY Rough draft.

 

[carmen510]

I have another (bad) idea, but I'll give it a shot.

What if the Europeans never colonized Africa, Asia, or the Americas?
What if the Mongols won in Egypt?
What if the Mongols conquered Japan?
What if Germany became Communist after the Great Depression?
What if Spain, France, the Dutch, Britain, Belgium, and Italy went to war (the real one) during the Age of Exploration/Colonization?

 

[North King]

I have another (bad) idea, but I'll give it a shot.

What if the Europeans never colonized Africa, Asia, or the Americas?

Why on Earth wouldn't they?

What if the Mongols won in Egypt?

How? It was on the edge of their empire, and the Mamluks were superb horse archers, just like the Mongols.

What if the Mongols conquered Japan?

Unlikely that they could. The terrain was not suitable, and the supply lines horrendous, not to mention they were the one force able to unite Japan during the Sengoku Era.

What if Germany became Communist after the Great Depression?

One more nation that might just well become the next part of the Soviet Bloc. And much more easily, so their economy might not have been ruined, so that the Cold War may have ended very differently. (I am firmly of the opinion that Communism alone does not result in a nation falling)

What if Spain, France, the Dutch, Britain, Belgium, and Italy went to war (the real one) during the Age of Exploration/Colonization?

I assume you mean the Scramble for Africa, since the Age of Exploration saw hundreds of wars.

 

[Symphony D.]

What if Germany became Communist after the Great Depression?

By then it was far, far too late. You would need to start after Versailles, not 15 years later.

 

[carmen510]

Hey, I told they were horrible.

Anyways, more for commentation.

WI 9/11 never happened?
WI we pulled out of Iraq in 200x?
WI the UN wasn't founded, because of the League of Nations' failure?
WI Japan won the Battle of Midway?
WI JFK wasn't assassinated?
WI the Nazis fell, but Germany kept the territory? (Very bad idea, due to lack of logical reason)
WI Korea was united after the Korean War?
WI Civ was never made? p)
WI the Cuban Missle Crisis wasn't solved?
WI Operation Sea Lion was a success?
WI America was never colonized/found?
WI Europe never had life in the first place?
WI Aliens invaded Earth in 1870, and gave us FTL technology? p)

 

[Symphony D.]

What if we ignored really formulaic (and often repeated) questions that are unlikely to result in interesting scenarios?

 

[North King]

Hey, I told they were horrible.

Anyways, more for commentation.

WI 9/11 never happened?

Then we don't have a justification for the War on Terror, and the ones in charge need to find a new justification for the Middle East.

WI we pulled out of Iraq in 200x?

Wouldn't happen. Of course, it might, and in that case, Iraq splits in three, as it's bound to do anyway.

WI the UN wasn't founded, because of the League of Nations' failure?

Very little changes.

WI Japan won the Battle of Midway?

The War in the Pacific is about five years longer, far more bloody, and more than just two atom bombs are used.

WI JFK wasn't assassinated?

I can't see that much happening... Maybe more emphasis on beating up Russia, but that wasn't really something new.

WI the Nazis fell, but Germany kept the territory? (Very bad idea, due to lack of logical reason)

You answered it yourself.

In any case, it depends on what territory is kept.

WI Korea was united after the Korean War?

Under which Korea? North, then there's another Communist police state. South, then there's a militaristic democracy right next to China.

WI the Cuban Missle Crisis wasn't solved?

Bye bye, Earth.

WI Operation Sea Lion was a success?

There might not be a feasible end to World War Two except a completely Soviet Europe.

WI America was never colonized/found?

For how long?

WI Europe never had life in the first place?

Er... what?

WI Aliens invaded Earth in 1870, and gave us FTL technology? p)

We'd be transcendent by now.

 

[TerrisH]

WI Aliens invaded Earth in 1870, and gave us FTL technology? p)

We'd be transcendent by now.

hmm, Actually, I have been Toying around with this. the Teddy Bears Picnic Scenrio, as I call it, after story I got the Idea from. I for get what it was Called, but its' a short story Set in modern day earth. a ship of what can only be discribesd like Teddy Beal Like Aliens enter our solar System, and Discover our Planet, ripe for the plucking, or so it seems to them. they can deteck to anti-Gravitational Technolagy.
So, Excited by the Prospect, their ships decend upon our world. One of them Lands inside a city, opens it's Cannon hatches, and deploys it's flitters. the Teddy Bears come Storming out of the ship, bent on subjegating the popuolus.. Armed with Matchlock, muzzle Loaded Rifles.

we quickly Out class them, and take the ship, We get their Technolagy, and later, in the various Research labs we confine them to study, they come to Relaise just what they unleashed upon the Galaxy At large. See, We humans went down the Left leg in the Trousers of Technolagy, while the Vast majority of the aliens went down the right. the divergence point? sometime durring the early Age of gunpowder, they discovered on how to Create a form of anti-Gravity, and a few decades later, how to use it to Travle to the Stars really really fast.
Meanwhile, on Earth, we humans, never did, and started to discover Our current model of Physics. soon, the very posiblity of this easy method of Gravitational Technolagy became a Blind Spot, and we went full Steam into the Industral Revolustion and all the cool stoff we figured out how to make.
the Aleins? well, why Advance? sure, the ocasinal invention would hapen, but with the near inffenint horrizens of space to explore and collinize, they never had our pressing need to devlop better weapons, or various other nifty stuff we came up.
hmm, they devloped Our Technolagy and a nice Steady rate. humans, stuck on earth with evergrowing population preasures and the cunnign of other humans, turned it into a girant Preasure cooker for Technolagy, Increasing it's discovery rate by 2-3 magnatudes.

basicly the just of it.

 

[Nuka-sama]

No, I meant that from the beggining that the USA was commie and Russia was democratic after the russian revolution, and George Washington was a die hard commie, and took control of the states after the revolution. Then, Stalin rose to be dictator of the USA and FDR became prez of the USSR.

Or it could also be Roosevelt dictator of USSR and Stalin president of the USA. Nothing in history changes before that, but as they rose in power they just switched places.

Either one would make for an uniuqe Cold War

 

[shortguy]

No, I meant that from the beggining that the USA was commie and Russia was democratic after the russian revolution, and George Washington was a die hard commie, and took control of the states after the revolution. Then, Stalin rose to be dictator of the USA and FDR became prez of the USSR.

Or it could also be Roosevelt dictator of USSR and Stalin president of the USA. Nothing in history changes before that, but as they rose in power they just switched places.

Either one would make for an uniuqe Cold War

If George Washington were a Communist--and how, considering Communism didn't exist then?--what on earth makes you think that the future from that point would be similar enough to the actual history that there would be a USA-Russia Cold War?

 

[Nuka-sama]

Meow!

Ok, how about my origional Idea, that USSR and USA had serious Political changes in 16 years, and Stalin who came to the USA from Georgia (The one in the USSR) rose to power in the new American Communist Government, while Roosevelt, who was born in Russia, became President of the USSR