Alternate History Thread III

One can talk about rebellion or socioeconomics or whatever all one wants; the simple fact of the matter is they lost the will to rule and dominate

It has everything to do with rebellion. Do you honestly believe that the British could have held all that land regardless? Portogul, and France both continued to to attempt to hold onto their colonies. Look what happened to them, they faced rebellion in Vietnam, Algeria, Angloa, etc... and were forced out of their colonial holdings in a bloody war kicking and screaming. The same would have happed to the British had they attempted to retain their colonial holdings.
 
Meh. France lost its will to fight in Vietnam and Algeria too--it was broken by WWII. Once the body bags started coming home the people looked at their still recovering country and said "no more."

Rebellion didn't stop the British in South Africa, among numerous other situations, despite facing terrible resistance on a par with insurgent forces in other regions and other times. Instead the deployed a massive army (500,000 to the Boer 80,000), crushed all resistance brutally (inventing the concentration camp in the process), and came out retaining the possession (which then went on to fight with them in WWI).

Britain was effectively bankrupted, financially, spiritually, and in confidence, by WWI. It was finished off by WWII. If it wasn't, it would have much more gravitas and authority in its colonies, and could probably persuade them rather easily by granting them Dominion status and internal self-autonomy.

Rebellions are only effective when the home power is demoralized and weak, or heavily distracted. Otherwise, it will crush them like insects. That is the chief reason why decolonization only happened after WWII: all the powers that had retained colonies to that point were crippled and had no will to retain them as they had previously. This is also why they managed to hold on to most of them until that point. They lost the credibility, the finacial and military capability, and the will to power necessary to maintain empire. They effectively committed suicide as great powers--that is the reason for decolonization. Rebel forces merely took advantage of this fact, as they have historically.

As someone who regularly pieces together vast states that are untenable in the long-term and supports them with bayonets, I figure you of all people would see this to be the case.
 
Willpower is WAY overrated. The decolonisation was a calculated move, sped along and worsened by Soviet and American pressure, plus the rebel movements (I do agree that they too are mostly insignificant).
 
das said:
Willpower is WAY overrated.
Not when you're a representative government, no. One merely has to look at the reaction of half the population in America regarding Iraq over a (lets be honest here) fairly low 3,500 dead and the results it has had (and will have) on elections to see this is the case. An even more profound example is President Clinton's withdrawal from Somalia after only 18 casualties in 1993. Public perception has been incredibly strong throughout the later half of the 20th Century, and even stretching back into the first half.

This is evident in the French experience in Vietnam (after the disaster at Dien Bien Phu, being so badly beaten as to have to beg the Americans to deploy four nuclear weapons against North Vietnamese positions around the base) and Algeria (where the Foreign Legion and French army committed numerous attrocities, suffered terrible loses, and at one point even attempted to assassinate de Gaulle himself) and the government was no longer able to truly support the war in the eyes of the people. This is similarly true for the American experience in Vietnam, and the Soviet experience in Afghanistan. All of these particular conflicts also incurred severe economic and military drains as well but those only contributed to the unwillingness of the electorate (or people, in the case of the USSR) to support them and therefore the inability of the colonial (or otherwise) government in question to sustain them in the long-term.

As MacArthur said, "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it."

Or, perhaps, "One cannot wage war under present conditions without the support of public opinion, which is tremendously molded by the press and other forms of propaganda."

These apply to not just war but most things involving concentrated effort and use of resources.

To embark upon colonialism is to deal with little guerilla wars and "incidents" every so often. To not be able to deal with those is to ultimately fail. Winning requires resolve, and resolve tends to require being able to overlook things like human rights or rules of war or morality in order to do what is necessary to win the conflict. Europeans, and to a large extent a good portion of the rest of the industrialized world, had their fill of slaughter with two world wars killing a hundred million people or two, and decided that toothless morality was better (and many still continue to do so today in the face of enemies not so encumbered). They couldn't maintain these positions economically or militarily anymore either, and that certainly didn't help, but even if they had been able to, they couldn't have sold it to the people who had the power to install or remove them from power. And so they let it go.

Why? Because Europe wanted (and still wants to this day) to make babies instead of bombs, to work 9 to 5 jobs, to get three years paid leave when having a baby, and so on. They got tired of blood and bullets and went soft.

Take away those two world wars killing those millions and millions of people, and you take away that aversion to bloodlust and that decline into weak decadence, or at the very least, greatly ****** it. And that leaves the colonial option infinitely more supportable, which provides alternatives to the looming American and Russian hegemons, which is what we're setting out to do.
 
Probably. It'd only be semi-stable for awhile until something gave. Perhaps something like Austria-Hungary finally imploding or something. Who knows. Not stable for more than 25 - 50 years, probably. So yeah, 1950s or 1960s would be when whatever balance there was started to collapse, probably.

I'd say it should be fleshed out a bit more than what's there. People will want to know who was fighting who and when.

Heheh, nothing can be easy can it ;) I'm almost tempted just to add some dots to a 2007 RL world map, call it nuclear fallout, and begin Fallout 2.
 
I'm almost tempted just to add some dots to a 2007 RL world map, call it nuclear fallout, and begin Fallout 2.
Um, no, that wouldn't be Fallout 2 by a long shot. :p
 
Alternatively one can go back even farther, and do something like prevent America from ever coming into being in the first place, and having a more colonial world that keeps its grip on its possessions well into the 20th Century. If one's willing to settle for something as shoddy as that WWII alt-hist, then even two or three centuries can be whipped up in a similar fashion with little hassle and better balance.

You know...I've done that before actually. Ever heard of For Want of a Nail?

It was very basic, alot of stuff filled in by me since I based it off of an excerpt of the history from the 1973 People's Almanac (love that thing). It was the first NES I ran, very noobish on CFC but kinda achieved a legendary status at Apolyton because of the people who joined. That was about 4 years ago though...maybe it could use a revision :p
 
On another note entirely, while lacking some initial detail and having a few strange moments, this is rather unique (as a PoD and a timeline) and has a good deal of supporting of supporting information.
 
Yes, all it's missing is a map, but there is enough information to make one at least.
 
On another note entirely, while lacking some initial detail and having a few strange moments, this is rather unique (as a PoD and a timeline) and has a good deal of supporting of supporting information.

That seems rather interesting, though I think quite a number of the events are pretty darn unlikly (the ability of japanese to march to the Urals in 1800 for one) ;).

The Canadian flag is just so cute though :lol:
 
There's probably a bit of Japanese nationalism shining through in that timeline, nothing to bad though. I think it's between that or For Want of Nail...I must do more ADVANCED READING
 
Its just plain weird, though interesting; go for it if you want. There are some other neat althists in the Althist Wiki, btw. FWoN is great as well, ofcourse.

Although, has the thought ever occured to you to try and make your own althist? :p
 
Done it before, very successful NES that should have lasted longer, not very realistic looking back on it but I did create a fun, multipolar world. Also was a pretty good Civ3 scenario :D
 
So why not make a modern one, Symphony aside?
 
Well, that first one I made was really me making a map for Civ3 out of impulse then forming a history around it...I dunno how well I could do that for modern times, where to have the PoD, etc.

I think I'll read the rest of Toyotomi timeline, look for a FWoaN map, and start brainstorming on my own if need be...
 
@symphony...I've thought of a way to fix the overpowered USA problem, without unrealistic civil wars. How about...Yellowstone? I've already picked my nes, but that could still be interesting as a scenario for someone else.

@das, so how goes that modding break? :mischief:
 
That doesn't fix the USA. That fixes the whole world. :p Particularly if it's done anytime after 1917.
 
It devestates the entire world economy correct, but it destroys the US economically, even if only temporarily. It would cause a good deal of chaos around the world I would imagine...
 
Um, no, not just the economy. The entire planetary climate goes to hell. Global temperature plummets by like five degrees F at least. Europe and most of East Asia freeze. Rainfall patterns shift, the sky darkens, crops fail, there are famines, and as a result, epidemics. This persists for years. It is effectively a nuclear winter-scale scenario. It's not a matter of the US simply collapsing economically, it's the entire industrialized world coming to a screeching halt and falling apart at the seams.

Fixing the USA would be something like the Canary Islands Mega-Tsunami, although that'd do a lot of damage to Canada and Mexico (and the Caribbean), and some to Europe as well, and most of it would be easy to recover over enough time--naturally conducted East Coast Urban Renewal.
 
Dude, I know, but it's better than a nuclear holocaust which you always complain about :p

I'm just saying it's a good catalyst for a crazy modern world NES, since it doesn't eliminate the human population like...nuclear holocaust or asteroids.
 
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