Alternate Leaders for VP project thread

[Hinin]

In that case, I have a quick question. For the GWAM points, is it 50% to the next category for Writers, Artists, AND Musicians per city taken? That's the wording implied by the description. I think most of the functions of that UA exist somewhere in the code, but I'm not sure.

That's exactly what you described : pineappledan suggested that we should keep a bonus of the original civilization for alternate leaders (so that some core mechanics are preserved), so that's why I try to do.
This GWAM bonus is exactly the one possessed by Napoleon in the Esprit de Corps UA.

Also, do you have any further thoughts on my ideas for Venice and Carthage?

For Venice, I'm still unconvinced that another UA is necessary to make the civ a potent warmonger. For the seconday flavor of a 'faith/warmonger' leader, the problem I have is that I have no good idea that isn't fundementaly op... I'm still thinking...

As for Hannibal, all the interest of this leader will be contained in his unique promotion, but once again it is difficult to establish for now (let's not forget we began thinking about his only yesterday : time will bring ideas).

Any idea on these fronts, @pineappledan ?

For my money, the Greece alternate with Alexander seems like the easiest one to cut your teeth on. There's lots of resources with the Greek split by Pouakai, and pretty much everything suggested can be done with SQL, except for the trigger for "leveling up" your GG.

To me, Louis XIV's two bonus seem much simpler (one part is even used in vanilla Civ V, although this version is boosted to take all types of yields into account, so I don't know if a copy-paste is possible), but I'm not a coder, so you're the captain, captain.

 

[pineappledan]

Any idea on these fronts, @pineappledan ?

There's already a Hannibal mod, with art and stuff to plunder. Hannibal sounds like a fine choice, though I can't say I have much interest, personally. In my opinion, my opinion doesn't matter. I've already tried to disentangle myself from this project to work on my own stuff. If someone is willing to put in the time to make something they want then they should do so. Best I can do is a bit of cheerleeding.

 

[HungryForFood]

I don't intend on doing an alternate leader for the Polynesian civ as it stands, but I would be happy to help you for a Polynesia split.

Also, are you still interested in coding Meiji, or does his "GA creation" bonus still doesn't please you ? Do you want to discuss about it ?

Yea, I think that'll be my next project. I think the way GAP is given now should be fine.

 

[Hinin]

Early concepts, with missing bonus.

Spoiler Cetshwayo kaMpande Zulus WIP :

Zulus - Cetshwayo kaMpande - Legacy of Isandlwana

- All units requires 25% less experience for promotion

- Whenever you kill a unit, gain Tourism with its civilization, increased by the number of additionnal technologies this civilization has over you

-

The Tourism obtained thorugh kills will have a small base value, but it will be multiplied when confronting civilizations with more technologies than you. Use this as a way to obtain better TRoutes and conquered cities, and then, maybe, attack the tech leaders in the end game to secure a Culture victory (this won't be easy though, for having less technology is usually detrimental to war efforts).

Spoiler Hannibal Barca Carthage WIP :

Carthage - Hannibal Barca - Father of Strategy
- Cities produce 175 Gold when founded, scaling with era

- Melee Land units have the "Hannibal ante portas" promotion (Gain +10 hp and additonnal Gold from pillaging ; when beginning its turn adjacent or on the same tile as a GGeneral, gain +1 MP)

- Cost of purchasing Units is reduced by 5 % per CS friend (maximum of 15 %)

One problem with Hannibal's third bonus is that there are already ways to reduce the cost of buying units by 78 % (15 % from Forbidden Palace, 30 % from Industry policies, 33 % from Military-Industrial Complex Autocracy policy), and so reducing the cost further would be overpowered (indeed, who wants Carthage to be able to buy units with a more than 80 % reduction...), although there is a situation where it is technically possible to upgrade units for free (35 % percent from Imperialism policies, 33 % from Pentagon, 33 % from Military-Industrial Complex Autocracy policy), so... I don't know.

 

[JFD]

There's already a Hannibal mod, with art and stuff to plunder.

Please don't say it like that. I'm already very uncomfortable with this project, which basically amounts to republishing my and Jan's works - and whilst all due credits are afforded, let's be realistic; to some, and perhaps one day to most, the impression that these were once my works will be lost to those that come across them. It's gone far beyond merely making my civs compatible with VP at this stage, at least for a number. Even out of jest or convenience, calling it plundering is exactly the feeling I get that, out of respect for VP and the community, I try to set aside.

It's especially frustrating that these are now redesigns because they widen the gap between VP and JFDLC, and between my current and past standards, further.

At this stage, if the plan is to essentially re-design my works, I'd ask that the releases start depending upon the original mod - at least on Steam if not the mod itself (the most ideal situation would be the latter, so that mod support and other details that aren't changed for VP can remain up-to-date - there is for now a significant gap between the standard of mod support in my latest civs and the VP versions - and so that my standards are preserved). I can't do anything more than ask though, so do as you will.

 

[Hinin]

Please don't say it like that. I'm already very uncomfortable with this project, which basically amounts to republishing my and Jan's works - and whilst all due credits are afforded, let's be realistic; to some, and perhaps one day to most, the impression that these were once my works will be lost to those that come across them. It's gone far beyond merely making my civs compatible with VP at this stage, at least for a number. Even out of jest or convenience, calling it plundering is exactly the feeling I get that, out of respect for VP and the community, I try to set aside.

It's especially frustrating that these are now redesigns because they widen the gap between VP and JFDLC, and between my current and past standards, further.

At this stage, if the plan is to essentially re-design my works, I'd ask that the releases start depending upon the original mod - at least on Steam if not the mod itself (the most ideal situation would be the latter, so that mod support and other details that aren't changed for VP can remain up-to-date - there is for now a significant gap between the standard of mod support in my latest civs and the VP versions - and so that my standards are preserved). I can't do anything more than ask though, so do as you will.

I'm sorry if you have been uncomfortable with this project, and am ready to terminate it if you want.
What you propose (making these mods depending on your original mods) seems good to me, but, being the original creator of most of the mods we take inspiration of, you have the last word here. What do you want us to do ?

 

[JFD]

I don't want to stifle creativity or to limit content for VP users, but I also don't want to lose or obscure the creative or technical integrity of my works. I simply ask for a dependency. If you are able to do that internally, within the mod (i.e. add a dependency, delete/update/override things that do not apply, but leave everything else in its original state and reliant on the original mod), then that would be best; this will ensure that the mod is kept up to date with the things that don't need changing for VP (mod support, diplomacy, civilopedias, etc. - things that I do tidy up frequently). If you need help with this, I am happy to create an example of how this might look internally, or to otherwise offer advise.

But if that does seem too difficult, a dependency on steam will at least ensure absolute clarity - this is what the author of a Codex patch has recently done for my Civilization Beyond Earth sponsors, and I am content with this method even if it loses out on the maintenance.

 

[Hinin]

I don't want to stifle creativity or to limit content for VP users, but I also don't want to lose or obscure the creative or technical integrity of my works. I simply ask for a dependency. If you are able to do that internally, within the mod (i.e. add a dependency, delete/update/override things that do not apply, but leave everything else in its original state and reliant on the original mod), then that would be best; this will ensure that the mod is kept up to date with the things that don't need changing for VP (mod support, diplomacy, civilopedias, etc. - things that I do tidy up frequently). If you need help with this, I am happy to create an example of how this might look internally, or to otherwise offer advise.

But if that does seem too difficult, a dependency on steam will at least ensure absolute clarity - this is what the author of a Codex patch has recently done for my Civilization Beyond Earth sponsors, and I am content with this method even if it loses out on the maintenance.

Since the number of dependencies would be simply enormous if all the current concepts are adapted, I have propositions :
- instead of hard dependencies, do soft dependencies : you can still activate the mod without having subscribed to all the leaders/civs modified by it, but only the leaders/civs you've subscribed to will appear (so, if the project modifies 20 leaders/civs, but you've only subscribed to 5 JFD mods, only the leaders added by these five mods will appear)
=> maybe we could make so that your assets aren't present in the "project mod", but are extracted from your mods, so that there is no way to play the modified leaders/civs without utilizing the original mods
=> it may be complicated (I don't even know if it is possible), and you surely know that I have no knowledge in coding, but it would make the ensemble totally modulable.

- we provide leader packs with hard dependencies

In any cases, one things that is sure is that the project will have a hard dependency to your True Alternative Leaders mod.

Anyway, I won't dare speak in the name of the coders (what is your opinion, @HungryForFood ?), but I am ready to swear alliegance to the JFDOM.

 

[pineappledan]

I’m glad this talk is taking place.

The 4UC project we did previously was simpler to justify

• With 4UC no one could justifiably expect us to download their entire mod for a single building or unit — here it seems completely acceptable
• It was a much simpler matter to give proper credit with 4UC
• For people who don’t normally use custom civs, the 4UC project felt much more like we were promoting other peoples’ work. This project takes full mods and alters them juuust enough that they aren’t fully independent civs. It prunes them to a sort of minimum viable product, even though they exist fully-fledged elsewhere

Ive never felt entirely comfortable with this project, which is why I haven’t offered to code for it. It really does feel like plundering to me, so I’m glad that I called a spade a spade, since we can properly discuss how this project could be made more palatable.

 

[Hinin]

I’m glad this talk is taking place.

The 4UC project we did previously was simpler to justify

• With 4UC no one could justifiably expect us to download their entire mod for a single building or unit — here it seems completely acceptable
• It was a much simpler matter to give proper credit with 4UC
• For people who don’t normally use custom civs, the 4UC project felt much more like we were promoting other peoples’ work. This project takes full mods and alters them juuust enough that they aren’t fully independent civs. It prunes them to a sort of minimum viable product, even though they exist fully-fledged elsewhere

Ive never felt entirely comfortable with this project, which is why I haven’t offered to code for it. It really does feel like plundering to me, so I’m glad that I called a spade a spade, since we can properly discuss how this project could be made more palatable.

I'm also glad that this conversation takes place. It allows each of us to reveal her/his position on the matter. As I said, I'm perfectly fine with putting dependencies for all the leaders that are taken from the works of other modders, and so your intervention, JFD, is good for it clarifies things.

 

[HungryForFood]

So @JFD are you ok with how I'm publishing my ports? I do try to keep to your original vision for your civs as much as possible, but if you want me to have a dependency, that's fine.

As for this project, honestly I've never liked completely changing another modder's design, since we're using their assets. For myself, my only exception so far is Victoria, but only because I really think the internal gold trade route is very interesting gameplay-wise, fits historically, has great synergy with the Steam Mill, and still vaguely keeps to the wide gold and science aspects of JFD's implementation.

I also think that a compilation pack of 20+ leaders sounds like overkill, and given the limited number of modders actually working on this, it is unlikely to be completed in reasonable time.

I completely agree with JFD's sentiments here, when you pack many modders' work into one like this, you will lose the original modder's "signature", so to speak, and given that modding is a creative work of passion, I don't think that's very nice. I also prefer not to mix assets from different modders (unless public or ok'ed), even if similar civs (which is why I try to make my own icons).

Now doing hard dependencies is not technically difficult, you just run into practical issues. The game is just not made to load so many different mods at the same time; you'll run into load order issues, slow load times, and crashes whenever you install a new version of VP. The problem is so much worse if you have to do 10+ dependencies because you're using assets from many different mods.

So what I suggest is:

• Split the pack up according to the modder, so you have a JFD pack, an MC pack, etc; or maybe separate them even further, eg an Ancient Era JFD pack, a Classical Era JFD pack, etc.
  
• Or preferably release each leader separately. I doubt most people play with every single civ. I myself only enjoy playing around 10 civs in VP. Separating like this allows a player to choose only the mods they will play, alleviating the aforementioned issues.
  
• For leaders you want to vastly change from the original, I think we should make our own art (unless the author is ok, but I think even asking is a bit of an unfair pressure to place on creative workers). I'm no Janboruta, but I can make at least passable stuff, even though I'm in no way an arts person (ie its not as hard as you think).

Also, I kinda assumed you already asked the original authors about using their assets. If not you really should. I did ask JFD way back when I started back in November, but of course permission is not permanent and is always up to him. So @JFD, if you're not happy with how I'm doing things, do tell me.

 

[Hinin]

Split the pack up according to the modder, so you have a JFD pack, an MC pack, etc; or maybe separate them even further, eg an Ancient Era JFD pack, a Classical Era JFD pack, etc.

Or preferably release each leader separately. I doubt most people play with every single civ. I myself only enjoy playing around 10 civs in VP. Separating like this allows a player to choose only the mods they will play, alleviating the aforementioned issues.

If I have to choose between the two, I actually prefer the second solution : it allows players to choose more freely, so that they don't have to subscribe to mods they aren't interested in.

For leaders you want to vastly change from the original, I think we should make our own art (unless the author is ok, but I think even asking is a bit of an unfair pressure to place on creative workers). I'm no Janboruta, but I can make at least passable stuff, even though I'm in no way an arts person (ie its not as hard as you think).

I agree. I've been looking on my side, but the only capable people I know irl aren't interested in that kind of work unfortunately. In any case, I wasn't expecting all of this to be released at all, and I'm already grateful that people have taken the project seriously.

Also, I kinda assumed you already asked the original authors about using their assets. If not you really should. I did ask JFD way back when I started back in November, but of course permission is not permanent and is always up to him. So @JFD, if you're not happy with how I'm doing things, do tell me.

I've asked JFD and Janboruta last year if I could use assets/concepts for what would later become the MUCfVP modmod, and this is unfortunate that, in my enthousiasm, I misinterpreted the "For code and ideas, feel free to use whatever you see fit." of JFD and "Pretty much anything I made for Civ V is free to use - provided the authors of mods that house the artwork also agree. But you've got the green light from me." of Janboruta (you can assert the accuracy of these messages I think, @JFD) as green lights for later projects, as long as I gave proper credit to the creators. I'm deeply sorry if I've appeared to you as a "plunderer" and, as I said, I'm ready to suppress all leaders based on existing mods if their creators want it.

Edit : In fact, I'll do things in advance. I'll mark all leaders whose assets have been made by other modders.

Also, I know that it's a little late after all of this but, JFD, do you authorize us to use the concepts of the leaders already present in the list page 1 if we make sure that there is a dependency between these new VP versions and your original creations ? You've already suggested that, but I would like a clear affirmation, so that we can be comfortable about it (I can be a little too formal sometimes, having studied law, but after these recent events, I prefer to clarify things).

Finally, have you been in contact with @janboruta these last weeks ? I've contacted him recently, but he didn't answer to me, and his feels on the matter are also important, knowing his involvement in almost all you mods, and many more.

 

[kenneth1221]

@JFD Are your mods released under any particular license? I tried looking and couldn't find any. The CiV modding community doesn't seem to have a habit of using licenses or stating reuse permissions compared to a few other modding communities, which is a pity because as awkward as legalese is compared to courtesy, it helps preempt uncomfortable situations. Unless I wasn't looking hard enough?

Furthermore, I ask: do the artists who contributed to your mods retain the right to give permission to use their art? (For the record, I'm not going to ask them for that separate permission because that would clearly be going against your wishes and also just be rude; I just want to ask for CYA reasons. (I also suspect the answer is something close to technically yes, but they won't because of courtesy reasons.))

 

[RobinMaravich27]

Julius Caesar
-Veni, Vidi, Vici
·Gain special rewards for defeating a Barbarian Encampment every 50 turns (Every era increases the cooldown, cannot use the same reward twice)

·Rewards such as:
~Two free Legions (or standard melee unit)
~The encampment converts into a city
~50 production in every city
~50 food in every city
~Gain two free workers
~The encampments converts into a citadel
~Permanent +5% production and food in all cities
Ect. Ect.

Tell me if this is a bad idea or not.

 

[ryanmusante]

What are a few must-have alternate leaders?

 

[Hinin]

What are a few must-have alternate leaders?

Before directly answering your question, I think it is better that I describe how I select the leaders :
- First, the leader must be relevant with the UC of the civilization (ex. : Mao Zedong is an "interesting" leader, but the changes he brought are in opposition to all the Chinese UCs, so I won't use him) : since VP only uses a handful of modern-era UCs, it limits my choices (for example, in a mod like SuperPower, which extends the last eras and bring a lot of modern/atomic UCs, modern leaders like De Gaulle or Stalin would be more "acceptable")

- Then, the leader must have interesting facts that makes it unique, and these facts must allow bonus that can be used ingame (for example, Catherine de Medicis, known for her intrigues and her usage of noblewomen as spies, is interesting... but Spying is a very hard-coded mechanic in VP, and the only solution in that domain would make Catherine redundant when compared to Elizabeth).

- Then, the mechanics a leader brings must not be too complex to codde and must be "balancable" so that using the leader doesn't bring an unfair advantage/disadvantage

- Finally, only two leaders per civ are allowed (if not, half of the leaders of the list would be French ).

So, to answer your question, the leaders that are, I think, "must-have" are :
- Hammurabi for Babylon => conquest-focused Babylon
- Umar for Arabia => faith/military-focused Arabia
- Frederick I for Germany => more early-game/faith focused Germany
- Kublai Khan for Mongolia => anti-cultural victory Mongolia
- Louis XIV for France => military/tall France
- Mutsuhito (Meiji) for Japan => GA or catch-up Japan

Of course, this is only my opinion, and there are a lot of other interesting leaders to talk about, but if I had to give a small list, here it is.


PS : Also, as you surely have seen, the thread is more or less stopped right now, simply because of JFD's intervention. This intervention was deserved, but our options have been very limited since then. This is why I'll try to find alternate leader pictures and learn some coding in the next twelve months. If you want to help in any way, please don't hesitate.