Alternate Roman History

[Karalysia]

The grain trade, yes. What, you think the Ptolemies were just piling it all up in the back, wondering what on earth they were going to do with ten million spare loaves of bread?

I always assumed they stored it in the Pyramids which were actually giant granaries rather than tombs, that's what Civ has taught me at least.

 

[SKILORD]

That's just silly, what use do aliens have for granaries?

 

[Traitorfish]

That's just silly, what use do aliens have for granaries?

The Egyptians hadn't yet developed the technology of packing peanuts, and they didn't have any other way to stop all their stuff getting broken in transit. Or didn't you realise that the pyramids are interstellar U-Haul vans?

 

[Masada]

The aliens are kind of like the poor. Lazy, shiftless and indigent. But instead of enslaving good self respecting whites, they enslaved some brown people to do it for them. I think it was a much better solution to the problem personally. Maybe we should export the chavs?

 

[Dachs]

No. But I'm sure it helped if the general actually wanted to go.

Also, the reference to Vespasian was about the revolt in Judea.

Those are irrelevant distinctions. Vespasianus did not crush the Jewish revolt because he thought it would look good as propaganda, or because he would get some phat lootz out of it, he did it because he was ordered to and because the Jews were a direct threat to ordered Roman society as he saw it.

Your original comment was that a Roman general could go off and conquer stuff to back up claims to rule at home, a possible draw in Germania across the Rhine. Nobody is contesting the facts that a general could get phat lootz, or that successful military campaigns would improve a general's propaganda and financial position in any potential leadership challenge. But neither of those matters in the context of deciding to go to war. A general of the Empire could not manufacture a war against the Chatti because he wanted a bit of glory or money, and turn that into a full-blown conquest of Germania. This is an artifact of Lucullus, Pompey, Sulla, and Caesar, who had much wider latitude as frontier commanders under the Republic to do such things. Imperial generals had a much more limited bailiwick; if they tried to kick off a half-cocked war, the Emperor would shoot them down and possibly cashier or execute them for insubordination and the very kind of leadership challenge that you mention as a possibility.

I was under the impression that loot was a benefit of the general of the army, not the state, who would have seen little of it. Not to imply that general's would just go off wtfpwning people left and right but they did extract ransom from captured prisoners (a form of loot I suppose). Foraging which, to my understanding, Hannibal used quite a bit, can be seen as a form of looting, although not in the traditional pillage and burn sense.

As for generals doing what they liked, at least in the Punic war, it seems that the state gave generals broad goals (go take this and this, sometimes not even city specific) and it was up to the generals to pick and choose which city to attack.

Yeah, but operational detail like where to move one's army or what city to attack is an entirely separate thing from conquering a vast territory like Germania.

Unless the general and sovereign were one and the same - to wit, Trajan.

Yes, but Traianus could hardly launch a leadership challenge against himself, backed by the resources, loot, and prestige of Dacia, Armenia, Arabia, and Mesopotamia, could he?

 

[Karalysia]

I think people are confusing the Empire with the Republic where it was profitable for people like Caesar to take governorship of a province and then extract wealth from it to pay off their debts which they had incurred to receive their offices and pay the army. I forget the name but they would hire people (deletores? maiestas?) to extract tax revenue from the provinces.

 

[Traitorfish]

Those are irrelevant distinctions. Vespasianus did not crush the Jewish revolt because he thought it would look good as propaganda, or because he would get some phat lootz out of it, he did it because he was ordered to and because the Jews were a direct threat to ordered Roman society as he saw it.

It helped, of course, that the Romans considered Yahweh to be something closer to Cthulu than to Jupiter. Jewish fanatics were, from their perspective, pretty much the Classical equivalent of WH40K Chaos cultists.

 

[Dachs]

I think people are confusing the Empire with the Republic where it was profitable for people like Caesar to take governorship of a province and then extract wealth from it to pay off their debts which they had incurred to receive their offices and pay the army. I forget the name but they would hire people (deletores? maiestas?) to extract tax revenue from the provinces.

Are you talking about the concept of tax-farming, the concept of publicani, or the concept of proconsular imperium? I'm not entirely sure.

It helped, of course, that the Romans considered Yahweh to be something closer to Cthulu than to Jupiter. Jewish fanatics were, from their perspective, pretty much the Classical equivalent of WH40K Chaos cultists.

Mhm.

 

[Karalysia]

It didn't help, of course, the Jews that the Romans considered Yahweh to be something closer to Cthulu than to Jupiter.

I don't know how true that is. I think it was more the persistent refusal by the Jews and Christians to worship other gods, Roman gods in addition to their own, in particular to worship the Emperor. After all there were some pretty strange gods out East, but the Emperor like Augustus or Claudius would stick their statue in the temple and be worshiped along with the rest. The Jews and Christians being strange monotheists didn't do so, naturally making them a suspect group for their refusal to recognize the authority of the Emperor. Also the Jews had a tendency to revolt. I think the common perception among Romans would be of them as troublesome.

 

[Dachs]

Funny that Cthulhu was mentioned. Made me think of The Rats in the Walls, which prominently features the worship of Magna Mater, sometimes identified with Kybele.

Also, the word isn't "troublesome", it's clearly "uppity". Much more entertaining segregation-era subtexts.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't know how true that is. I think it was more the persistent refusal by the Jews and Christians to worship other gods, Roman gods in addition to their own, in particular to worship the Emperor. After all there were some pretty strange gods out East, but the Emperor like Augustus or Claudius would stick their statue in the temple and be worshiped along with the rest. The Jews and Christians being strange monotheists didn't do so, naturally making them a suspect group for their refusal to recognize the authority of the Emperor. Also the Jews had a tendency to revolt. I think the common perception among Romans would be of them as troublesome.

I don't know, I've been told that the Romans found the Jewish religion genuinely disturbing. Theirs was essentially animistic, after all, so each deity had a very real physical presence in their lives, but Yahweh was (broadly) characterised as an unknowable cosmic overlord, which they found rather intimidating. This may be apocryphal, but I've been told that when Pompey occupied Jerusalem, he barged his way into the Holy of Holies in the Temple, only to find that, to his horror, it was entirely empty; he had assumed that, as with European paganism, the inner sanctum would contain an icon of the relevant deity, so the lack of an icon suggested to him that the Jewish god must be some sort of undepictable monstrosity.
Also, the Romans apparently had a somewhat shaky grasp on the distinction between circumcision and castration, which sort of furthered the "insane cultist" interpretation.

 

[Masada]

The Romans must have had a shaky understanding of procreation as well

 

[Lord Baal]

I don't know, I've been told that the Romans found the Jewish religion genuinely disturbing. Theirs was essentially animistic, after all, so each deity had a very real physical presence in their lives, but Yahweh was (broadly) characterised as an unknowable cosmic overlord, which they found rather intimidating. This may be apocryphal, but I've been told that when Pompey occupied Jerusalem, he barged his way into the Holy of Holies in the Temple, only to find that, to his horror, it was entirely empty; he had assumed that, as with European paganism, the inner sanctum would contain an icon of the relevant deity, so the lack of an icon suggested to him that the Jewish god must be some sort of undepictable monstrosity.
Also, the Romans apparently had a somewhat shaky grasp on the distinction between circumcision and castration, which sort of furthered the "insane cultist" interpretation.

Not true at all. In fact, until the Jewish Revolt of Simon Bar Kokba, Jews were actually a very well-treated, even priveleged minority in the Roman Empire. The Romans, while by no means understanding the weird beliefs of those crazy folk who only believed in the one god rather than a whole bunch of them, and who ritually mutilated themselves before they could become adults, respected their beliefs. They respected these beliefs enough to exempt Jews from; taxation for the building of Roman (pagan) temples, and; worshipping the Emperor as a god himself. All that was asked of them is that the High Priests pray for the safety and well-being of the Emperor, which they did gladly. After all, "render unto Caesar," as that heretic Christ said.

After the revolt, Jews were taxed more than other groups, specifically for the rebuilding of Roman temples - the Temple of Jupiter in Rome itself being the first - on the grounds that they didn't contribute to the state by worshipping the Emperor or by making donations to pagan temples. This taxation also diverted funds away from any Jewish attempts to rebuild their own temple, which was an added bonus to the Emperors/generals they'd pissed off, Vespasian, Titus, Trajan, etc..

Oh, and the Romans fully understood the practice of circumcision. The Jews weren't the only people in the Empire to do it. It's fairly common amongst desert peoples.

 

[Traitorfish]

Not true at all. In fact, until the Jewish Revolt of Simon Bar Kokba, Jews were actually a very well-treated, even priveleged minority in the Roman Empire. The Romans, while by no means understanding the weird beliefs of those crazy folk who only believed in the one god rather than a whole bunch of them, and who ritually mutilated themselves before they could become adults, respected their beliefs. They respected these beliefs enough to exempt Jews from; taxation for the building of Roman (pagan) temples, and; worshipping the Emperor as a god himself. All that was asked of them is that the High Priests pray for the safety and well-being of the Emperor, which they did gladly. After all, "render unto Caesar," as that heretic Christ said.

After the revolt, Jews were taxed more than other groups, specifically for the rebuilding of Roman temples - the Temple of Jupiter in Rome itself being the first - on the grounds that they didn't contribute to the state by worshipping the Emperor or by making donations to pagan temples. This taxation also diverted funds away from any Jewish attempts to rebuild their own temple, which was an added bonus to the Emperors/generals they'd pissed off, Vespasian, Titus, Trajan, etc..

I'm not sure what your point is. I didn't say that the Romans singled out the Jews for persecution, just that they sometimes found the Jewish religion to be a bit disturbing, so at odds was it with their own religious practices.

Oh, and the Romans fully understood the practice of circumcision. The Jews weren't the only people in the Empire to do it. It's fairly common amongst desert peoples.

Well, on that I stand corrected.

 

[SG-17]

I wonder how much it would have cost and how long it would have taken for Rome to build a wall along the Rhine River during Hadrian's reign?

 

[Karalysia]

I wonder how much it would have cost and how long it would have taken for Rome to build a wall along the Rhine River during Hadrian's reign?

Why would that have been useful? The Rhine River provided a decent enough frontier.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Not true at all. In fact, until the Jewish Revolt of Simon Bar Kokba, Jews were actually a very well-treated, even priveleged minority in the Roman Empire. The Romans, while by no means understanding the weird beliefs of those crazy folk who only believed in the one god rather than a whole bunch of them, and who ritually mutilated themselves before they could become adults, respected their beliefs. They respected these beliefs enough to exempt Jews from; taxation for the building of Roman (pagan) temples, and; worshipping the Emperor as a god himself. All that was asked of them is that the High Priests pray for the safety and well-being of the Emperor, which they did gladly. After all, "render unto Caesar," as that heretic Christ said.

After the revolt, Jews were taxed more than other groups, specifically for the rebuilding of Roman temples - the Temple of Jupiter in Rome itself being the first - on the grounds that they didn't contribute to the state by worshipping the Emperor or by making donations to pagan temples. This taxation also diverted funds away from any Jewish attempts to rebuild their own temple, which was an added bonus to the Emperors/generals they'd pissed off, Vespasian, Titus, Trajan, etc..

Oh, and the Romans fully understood the practice of circumcision. The Jews weren't the only people in the Empire to do it. It's fairly common amongst desert peoples.

None of this stops me from wanting to see a short story set in ancient Rome depicting the Jews as worshippers of a great old one. After all, just about everyone else in the middle east was.

 

[LightSpectra]

Not true at all. In fact, until the Jewish Revolt of Simon Bar Kokba, Jews were actually a very well-treated, even priveleged minority in the Roman Empire. The Romans, while by no means understanding the weird beliefs of those crazy folk who only believed in the one god rather than a whole bunch of them, and who ritually mutilated themselves before they could become adults, respected their beliefs. They respected these beliefs enough to exempt Jews from; taxation for the building of Roman (pagan) temples, and; worshipping the Emperor as a god himself. All that was asked of them is that the High Priests pray for the safety and well-being of the Emperor, which they did gladly. After all, "render unto Caesar," as that heretic Christ said.

All true, but you're leaving quite a few details out. The Romans were on several occasions very abusive of Jews, even prior to the Bar-Kokhba Revolt. The most egregious example being Pompey marching into the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem just because he was curious, knowing that the Judeans couldn't stop him.

 

[Karalysia]

All true, but you're leaving quite a few details out. The Romans were on several occasions very abusive of Jews, even prior to the Bar-Kokhba Revolt. The most egregious example being Pompey marching into the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem just because he was curious, knowing that the Judeans couldn't stop him.

Oh no! What terrible abuse!

 

[LightSpectra]

Oh no! What terrible abuse!

Killing 12,000 Jews and then insulting their graves by religious desecration isn't a "terrible abuse"? I suppose it wouldn't be to a Stalinist.