Lokki242
Emperor
Maybe those unit types would always be "rushable" as well?
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Alternative Map for DOC
- Thread starter Bautos42
- Start date
Well in terms of units, a nice flavor trait would be localized names for some civs like Triarii for Roman Spearman or Clibanni for Persian lancers yeoman for English longbows ext it might also allow for psudo-UU that are just localized names of units to represent different stages pre or post UU
merijn_v1
Black Belt
I did some experimentation with some of the heightmaps and got some nice results. It is possible to connect diagonal water straits, instead of having an isthmus. Maybe it's worth to consider for the new map.
Pros:
- Can make islands like Sicily really look like islands.
- Can create strait like the Bosporus.
Cons:
- It will replace all isthmuses, so the Sinai and Panama isthmuses will be disconnected as well.
- Waves will not probably not match the coastline anymore.
- Unsure if the endresult will look very polished.
A screenshot with some experint results. The heightmap is very rough, but it shows straits can be created. The texture is obviously not finished, but the blue line indicates that the strait will get a water color.
Some more experimentation with the elevation system of Planetfall. And also with peaks as terrain features.
Pros:
- Can make islands like Sicily really look like islands.
- Can create strait like the Bosporus.
Cons:
- It will replace all isthmuses, so the Sinai and Panama isthmuses will be disconnected as well.
- Waves will not probably not match the coastline anymore.
- Unsure if the endresult will look very polished.
A screenshot with some experint results. The heightmap is very rough, but it shows straits can be created. The texture is obviously not finished, but the blue line indicates that the strait will get a water color.
Spoiler :
Some more experimentation with the elevation system of Planetfall. And also with peaks as terrain features.
Spoiler :
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merijn_v1
Black Belt
AtlantaMarty
No longer active
Could you maybe achieve this by creating "straight" as a terrain type with this graphics, and leaving coast with the old graphics?
merijn_v1
Black Belt
The problem is that the art for this does not work like most other art and many aspects are hidden in the .exe and therefore not editable.
EDIT:
But giving it a quick look, I might think a solution is possible. (If some of my assumptions on how it works are correct) I'll have to do some tests to see if it will work.
EDIT:
But giving it a quick look, I might think a solution is possible. (If some of my assumptions on how it works are correct) I'll have to do some tests to see if it will work.
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Some more experimentation with the elevation system of Planetfall. And also with peaks as terrain features.
Spoiler :
Would be great for Tibet and, also, Andes.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
Publicola
King
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 759
You know, I really like the way the 'highlands' tiles look, especially since it's more realistic than the current 'mountain' tile with a single big peak.
I wonder, when you work on the 'peaks' tile feature, would it be possible to treat it, not a single big mountain, but as a mountain range: multiple peaks, at a slightly lesser height (so each one doesn't stick up quite so much). I'm not a coder, but I wonder if you could borrow the code for forests, in terms of determining placement of each mini-peak. ('Forest' featires are also able to stretch between tiles, which would be helpful for displaying a mountain range...)
I wonder, when you work on the 'peaks' tile feature, would it be possible to treat it, not a single big mountain, but as a mountain range: multiple peaks, at a slightly lesser height (so each one doesn't stick up quite so much). I'm not a coder, but I wonder if you could borrow the code for forests, in terms of determining placement of each mini-peak. ('Forest' featires are also able to stretch between tiles, which would be helpful for displaying a mountain range...)
merijn_v1
Black Belt
Bad news. It seems that it is impossible to have both isthmuses and straits. Or at least in a controlled way.
The heightmap of the coast controls the height of the tile. As you can see in the screenshots of my previous posts, I can edit them succesfully. There are several heightmaps for different terrains. For the diagonal coastal tiles have 6 different heightmaps, which by default all create an isthmus. They only have some small variation how the isthmus looks like. I assume this is to get some variety.
The problem is that I cannot control which of the heightmap is used. It seems to be hidden in the exe. I can change half of the heightmaps to become straits. The result will be that about half of the diagonal water tiles become straits and the other half remain isthmuses. But as said, I cannot control which ones.
I tried to create a new dummy coast land type with an unique set of heigthmaps, but I cannot link them to the new heightmaps as this seems to be in the exe too. The new land type will use the heightmaps of the default coast type.
The heightmap of the coast controls the height of the tile. As you can see in the screenshots of my previous posts, I can edit them succesfully. There are several heightmaps for different terrains. For the diagonal coastal tiles have 6 different heightmaps, which by default all create an isthmus. They only have some small variation how the isthmus looks like. I assume this is to get some variety.
The problem is that I cannot control which of the heightmap is used. It seems to be hidden in the exe. I can change half of the heightmaps to become straits. The result will be that about half of the diagonal water tiles become straits and the other half remain isthmuses. But as said, I cannot control which ones.
I tried to create a new dummy coast land type with an unique set of heigthmaps, but I cannot link them to the new heightmaps as this seems to be in the exe too. The new land type will use the heightmaps of the default coast type.
Spoiler :
1SDANi
The Fading Memory
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2014
- Messages
- 3,072
Bad news. It seems that it is impossible to have both isthmuses and straits. Or at least in a controlled way.
The heightmap of the coast controls the height of the tile. As you can see in the screenshots of my previous posts, I can edit them succesfully. There are several heightmaps for different terrains. For the diagonal coastal tiles have 6 different heightmaps, which by default all create an isthmus. They only have some small variation how the isthmus looks like. I assume this is to get some variety.
The problem is that I cannot control which of the heightmap is used. It seems to be hidden in the exe. I can change half of the heightmaps to become straits. The result will be that about half of the diagonal water tiles become straits and the other half remain isthmuses. But as said, I cannot control which ones.
I tried to create a new dummy coast land type with an unique set of heigthmaps, but I cannot link them to the new heightmaps as this seems to be in the exe too. The new land type will use the heightmaps of the default coast type.
Spoiler :
What if we just don't use diagonal tiles when we don't want a strait? The new map adds a lot of new tiles, I'd imagine that with a lot of finagling it may be possible.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
My first thought was that that would look ugly. But looking at the bigger map that might actually be a good idea. The only area that it really affects is Panama. Other areas can be fixed with adding a tile without making the map look too distorting.
This is how Panama would look like with the additional tile fix. (I added the snow tiles. One of the adjacent jungle tiles can be removed so the area is thinner)
Spoiler :
As said, some areas can easily be fixed without being to distorting. Examples are Malaya and Cuba.
Spoiler :
Maybe some areas need reworking, but I don't have much knowledge about those areas. For example China. (Image those wall being straits, making those tiles islands)
Spoiler :
A small side effect is that some lakes would become a bigger lake because they become connected. (For example the Finnish lakes) But personally I don't mind that.
My personal oppinion is to add the straits. This allows many (Corsica, Sicily, Japanese Islands and some more) islands to become real islands. (They are still treated as connected to the land by game mechanics) The only real downside is Panama, which can be made look decent with some rearranging of the tiles I think.
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Do I understand the proposal correctly?
1) Change height maps so diagonal connections become straits instead of isthmuses
2) Create a new dummy terrain that is otherwise identical to Coast but has a different height (?) which we can put everywhere we want to prevent straits from forming, indicated by ice in the above screenshots
We have lots of examples were we want to force isthmuses back into the map, so can we please take a step back and collect where we actually want diagonal straits? Right now all I can think of is Sardinia/Corsica, Sicily/Italy, Zealand/Scania for that one proposal where they're connected, maybe Tierra del Fuego, am I missing something? None of these seem all that important to have, and I would actually be opposed to cutting off Sicily from Italy. In general removing land connections and making naval access mandatory will only make the game worse because it will make life harder for the AI.
Honestly if we are experimenting with the path connection logic I would be more interested in going in the other direction, finding a way to enable crossing a genuine water tile without ships. Places like Gibraltar, the Channel or Malacca would be vastly improved for the AI (and human convenience) if we could find away to allow units to pass through but not end their turn on a water tile they or a friendly power culturally controls.
1) Change height maps so diagonal connections become straits instead of isthmuses
2) Create a new dummy terrain that is otherwise identical to Coast but has a different height (?) which we can put everywhere we want to prevent straits from forming, indicated by ice in the above screenshots
We have lots of examples were we want to force isthmuses back into the map, so can we please take a step back and collect where we actually want diagonal straits? Right now all I can think of is Sardinia/Corsica, Sicily/Italy, Zealand/Scania for that one proposal where they're connected, maybe Tierra del Fuego, am I missing something? None of these seem all that important to have, and I would actually be opposed to cutting off Sicily from Italy. In general removing land connections and making naval access mandatory will only make the game worse because it will make life harder for the AI.
Honestly if we are experimenting with the path connection logic I would be more interested in going in the other direction, finding a way to enable crossing a genuine water tile without ships. Places like Gibraltar, the Channel or Malacca would be vastly improved for the AI (and human convenience) if we could find away to allow units to pass through but not end their turn on a water tile they or a friendly power culturally controls.
I kinda wanted to get back to this and restart an initiative based around my proposed plan (developing an improved exe under closed source), I even have a roadmap written up and everything.Spoiler :
merijn_v1
Black Belt
Yes and no.
1). Yes.
The are a few options:
1. No changes. Current system. All isthmuses on diagonals.
2. Change all of them. All diagonal water tiles would become straits. To prevent isthmuses like Panama to turn to straits, some water tiles need to be converted to land tiles. (Snow tiles in the screenshot). These added tiles get rid of diagonal water tiles in that area.
3. Change a few of them. But this give random distrubution of isthmuses and straits. (BAD IDEA)
2) No. The ice tiles don't have anything to do with the new tile type, but option 2 of above.
The new tile type was an experiment to see if we can have 2 seperate sets of heightmaps. One for the straits and one for the isthmuses. This would give us control how the map would look like graphically.
For example, the water tiles around Panama would be of the current coast type and have the isthmus heightmap. The water tiles near Sicily would be of the new type and will have the strait as heightmap. Unfortunately, this is not possible.
On the bigger map, the only isthmus that would cause some troubles I can find is Panama. Malaya also has an isthmus (on the current version of the bigger map the snow tile of the screenshot in my previous post is a water tile), but by adding one land tile there are no diagonal water tiles anymore, so there will be no strait.
All changes are only graphical. The game mechanics do not changes. So unit movement will be the same as before. (Land units can move to Sicily trough Italy, while sea units cannot pass through the strait)
As said, it is only graphical. The path connection will remain the same.
That does remind me that RFCE allows ships to pass trough diagonal isthmuses. It doesn't really affect the AI, because the normal path finding mechanics still apply.
You have my support on this.
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merijn_v1
Black Belt
Some screenshots to elaborate.
If the diagonal isthmuses will turn to straits, it will (roughly) look like this. (The islands become disconnected) As can be seen in the second screenshot, unit movement is not changed. A ship wouldn't be able to pass through the strait.
RFCE does allow a ship to pass trough the strait while still allowing the land unit to move diagonal accros the strait. The current path finding methods still apply, so the AI will handle it well.
With this heightmap, Panama would look like the first screenshot. This is of course not desired. The second screenshot is a possible fix. To avoid straits, red diagonals like in the screenshot must be avoided.
Malaya is similar:
The Japanese islands become real islands. I don't know if the Chinese ones are accurate. (These could be a reason not to add straits)
If the diagonal isthmuses will turn to straits, it will (roughly) look like this. (The islands become disconnected) As can be seen in the second screenshot, unit movement is not changed. A ship wouldn't be able to pass through the strait.
RFCE does allow a ship to pass trough the strait while still allowing the land unit to move diagonal accros the strait. The current path finding methods still apply, so the AI will handle it well.
Spoiler :
With this heightmap, Panama would look like the first screenshot. This is of course not desired. The second screenshot is a possible fix. To avoid straits, red diagonals like in the screenshot must be avoided.
Spoiler :
Malaya is similar:
Spoiler :
The Japanese islands become real islands. I don't know if the Chinese ones are accurate. (These could be a reason not to add straits)
Spoiler :
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Oh sorry, I thought the implication was that this would also influence pathing. I guess that's a different discussion then.
I have to admit that Japan looks great now, but Panama definitely does not (in either proposal). I don't like the idea of changing the layout of the map just to have a graphical improvement. Too bad it isn't possible to control where the strait is displayed even when trying to trick the engine.
I have to admit that Japan looks great now, but Panama definitely does not (in either proposal). I don't like the idea of changing the layout of the map just to have a graphical improvement. Too bad it isn't possible to control where the strait is displayed even when trying to trick the engine.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
Here are all area's of the bigger map that have diagonal water tiles and would be affected. The green circles are straits IRL, the red ones are not.
(There are some more near the North Pole, but I don't think those are really important.)
(There are some more near the North Pole, but I don't think those are really important.)
Spoiler :
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Would it be possible to lower the area between diagonally connected land tiles to sea level and use terrain features in order to apply different graphics to the area. Having land connections at sea level would probably not look that badly. And applying textures by terrain features might certainly be easier than changing the heightmap?
As a side note, I really love the ideas you came up with. When I designed the larger world map, I often contemplated how great it might be if diagonally connected sea tiles could be used to simulate straits.
As a side note, I really love the ideas you came up with. When I designed the larger world map, I often contemplated how great it might be if diagonally connected sea tiles could be used to simulate straits.
