America has been Defeated in Afganistan

As inno said, this is more about politics.

We can win this war if we want. We can win any time. We can win any game--the small arms game on up. We choose not to because the costs are not politically worthwhile. And it's a damn good thing they aren't.
 
As inno said, this is more about politics.

We can win this war if we want. We can win any time. We can win any game--the small arms game on up. We choose not to because the costs are not politically worthwhile. And it's a damn good thing they aren't.
1) What constitutes winning?
2) If we can win if we want, why haven't we in 11 years? Did we want to lose from the start then?
 
As inno said, this is more about politics.

We can win this war if we want. We can win any time.

it's not about politics, it's about the US not having learnt anything from Vietnam. The locals know the armed forces present will leave at some time, so any "solution" can't be strictly military. (And no, you couldn't win this war in the first place, precisely because the US military don't give a rat's ass about the Afghans - and the Afghans know it.)
 
1) What constitutes winning?
2) If we can win if we want, why haven't we in 11 years? Did we want to lose from the start then?

I think the point Hygro is making is that we never really put a concerted effort into winning in Afghanistan. It was always the forgotten war, having taken a back seat since we went into Iraq. It's only since Obama came in that we made any kind of "surge" in the country, and even that one was extremely moderate in scale.
 
True: not winning in Iraq had no effect whatsoever on not winning in Afghanistan. However, the basic reason was the same: not trying to win the people over.
 
I guess this rather depends on what you think winning and losing are. If you want to attempt to build a moderately stable nation a la nationbuilding, that generally takes at least 60 years of occupation. You have to wait for the people that really hate your guts a lot from when you first came in to mostly die off. Then you have a lesser amount of people that hate your guts for being there and more people that tolerate you because you've "always" been there. Except, of course, if you manage to make almost everybody hate you for being there.

If winning is largely subduing violent resistance to your or your puppet's rule, we could probably do that, yes. All you have to do is kill everyone in a village anytime somebody acts out of line. Then keep that up for 60 years. I'm pretty glad most people aren't interested in winning in this fashion.

It's easy to forget in the chanting of "Vietnam Vietnam" that the United States actually has put down the rebellion of native populations a couple times. You could make an argument that the Indian Wars were such, and the Philippines almost certainly were. The big difference in tactics seems to have been naked brutality. Since this is a brave new era where insurgents have access to much more destructive tools, the brutality would likely need increased.

Wars aren't really "winnable" at all if what you are interested in is human welfare.
 
Well, how about if you go in there, build hospitals, schools, and courtrooms, give jobs in government to honourable people and generally modernize a country? Wouldn't that help win a peace?

Afghanistan as a country with one of the lowest standards of living and literacy rates should have been a prime site to at least give this kind of initiative a go.

Or would you say this is just too expensive, and that you've simply got to bomb a country into submission first?
 
Wars aren't really "winnable" at all if what you are interested in is human welfare.

In cauda venenum. That's basically the point; defeating what military forces there are is just the beginning. (And killing off villages - yes, à la Vietnam... - definitely isn't helping. It will only sow the seeds of resistance. And at some point occupational forces will have to evacuate.)
 
Well, how about if you go in there, build hospitals, schools, and courtrooms, give jobs in government to honourable people and generally modernize a country? Wouldn't that help win a peace?

Afghanistan as a country with one of the lowest standards of living and literacy rates should have been a prime site to at least give this kind of initiative a go.

Or would you say this is just too expensive, and that you've simply got to bomb a country into submission first?

That's pretty much what you try to do with the "nationbuilding" approach. Problem is some people don't like you(for good reasons and bad) and are more than willing to burn the country to force you out.
 
Well, how about if you go in there, build hospitals, schools, and courtrooms, give jobs in government to honourable people and generally modernize a country? Wouldn't that help win a peace?

Afghanistan as a country with one of the lowest standards of living and literacy rates should have been a prime site to at least give this kind of initiative a go.

Or would you say this is just too expensive, and that you've simply got to bomb a country into submission first?


We've failed at that a couple of times now. We have no credibility that we will actually follow up on that with the local populace. So it does us not much of any good to try. And the "nation building" we've been doing since early in the wars has been an utterly corrupt fiasco.
 
1) What constitutes winning?
2) If we can win if we want, why haven't we in 11 years? Did we want to lose from the start then?

1) is whatever society defines as winning. Whatever little definition we've given it, we haven't done it
2) I already answered this in my post, in fact that's the question my post addresses. Can you tell me what I wrote and why we haven't won in 11 years?
 
Can you tell me what I wrote and why we haven't won in 11 years?

Because Afganistan #1 and American Soldiers suck!


Spoiler :
:p
 
it's not about politics, it's about the US not having learnt anything from Vietnam. The locals know the armed forces present will leave at some time, so any "solution" can't be strictly military. (And no, you couldn't win this war in the first place, precisely because the US military don't give a rat's ass about the Afghans - and the Afghans know it.)
Nonsense.

The US government and military has known for a very long time that sustainable victory in these sorts of circumstances comes from political solutions crafted in conjunction with and playing off of military ones. It's obvious. That's the way any war works. There's no such thing as a purely military solution to a conflict. The problem here, as in Viet Nam, is that the political solution fundamentally depends on an allied government that the United States cannot control except in the broadest terms. America could not and can not occupy an entire country forever; that is left to local troops and, eventually, gendarmerie. The US couldn't force the Republic of Viet Nam to create a state that was acceptable to enough of its citizens to be viable in the face of the VC and the NVA. And it can't force Hamid Karzai and the rest of the erstwhile Northern Alliance to create a state that is viable in the face of the innumerable warlords of Afghanistan.

It is very obvious that the United States military and political leadership has always been cognizant of these issues. This is where Vietnamization came from, and it's why the Paris Peace Accords took the shape that they did. Much like the Soviets and the RoA, the RVN was expected to be able to enjoy continuing indirect American aid, converted to direct aid on the resumption of actual hostilities. And much like the RoA, the RVN did not receive that aid due to internal-political problems in the allied country. American policy in Viet Nam did not achieve a victory, but neither did it sustain a defeat until after Watergate effectively immobilized the government. And the Soviet Union similarly was not meaningfully defeated in Afghanistan until long after the Soviet state itself had ceased to exist.

This does not mean that no situation could ever have been created that could be reasonably construed as an American "victory" in either Afghanistan or Viet Nam. And it also doesn't mean that the American-led war effort in either country was perfectly executed and flawless. Neither one of those things is true, which should be obvious to even the most casual observer. But at this point what the US Army does is decreasingly relevant in the face of the inabilities of the American and Afghan governments to craft a political solution to the war.

As for the claim that the US isn't interested in the "people" of Afghanistan, it's prima facie absurd. The military isn't, generally speaking, interested in the overall welfare and prosperity of anybody more than any other group of people, and individual soldiers certainly have expressed bigoted opinions of Afghans, and even acted on those opinions, yes. There have been friendly fire incidents, and communications failures, but those are hardly indicative of a general problem. And the greater part of ISAF's mission in Afghanistan ever since 2002 has been to train the Afghan military and police force to be able to stand on their own feet. American soldiers have died fighting alongside those Afghans, and they have died at the hands of traitors within Afghan ranks while working together with local forces. Afghanistan's infrastructure, to the extent that it even exists today, is due almost entirely to ISAF - its militaries and its civilian contractors. To the extent that any force can be reasonably expected to cooperate with its allies, ISAF's militaries fit the bill.
 
Your "nonsense" is belied by the treatment by US military of Iraquis and Afghans alike. Your regular GI has no knowledge of the locals (yes, same as in Vietnam), nor are they iclined to increase what little knowledge they have. That shouldn't be surprising seeing as the worldview of the average American usually ends at the US borders. But to give an actual example without referring to the treatment of prisoners and dead Afghans featred so prominently in the media, when the Dutch froces left their region in Afghanistan, the US took over. The first thing they did was totally ignore the relations the Dutch military had diligently been building up with local Afghans and strike a deal with the local warlord - because, obviously, that's how you "win the locals". Sound familiar?
 
If the Dutch outperform US forces in this regard I am not so nationalistically proud as to have a problem with letting the Dutch do more.
 
Besides the Balklands, when was the Dutch army ever deployed somewhere?
 
Besides the Balklands, when was the Dutch army ever deployed somewhere?

Naval units are taking part in operations off Somalia, air force units are still active in Afghanistan (as they were above Libya). The Netherlands are a full NATO member.

My point was more as regards the different approach by the Dutch military during ground operations in Afghanistan, by way of example.
 
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